Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables  (Read 25490 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2007, 07:11:29 PM »
From Slashdot:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/04/1354224
Quote
"James Randi offered US$ 1 million to anyone who can prove that a pair of $7,250 Pear Anjou speaker cables is any better than ordinary (and also overpriced) Monster Cables. Pointing out the absurd review by audiophile Dave Clark, who called the cables 'danceable,' Randi called it 'hilarious and preposterous.' He added that if the cables could do what their makers claimed, 'they would be paranormal.'"
The slashdotters are having a good time...
Side note: James Randi spoke to one of my classes in college, I think it was something in the school of communication (broadcasting major).


Hmm, how can you prove that one is "better" than the other? Sure you could prove that one has lower impedance/resistance/capacitance, but I don't see how you can prove "better". To me "better" is a completely subjective term and things are only "better" to specific people.

Now, you can definitely prove "different", I would think that cables will likely sound different, particularly with amp/speaker combinations whose performance is sensitive to impedance/resistance/capacitance issues.
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2007, 08:13:04 PM »
thanks Jammin - I've actually seen it written that longer cables sound "better" than short cables ymmv :P
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Jammin72

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2007, 09:08:32 PM »
thanks Jammin - I've actually seen it written that longer cables sound "better" than short cables ymmv :P

I enjoyed the read. 

Thing about it is that so much of our experience is really and truly what we intend it to be that trying to make blanket statements about better or best when it comes to individual perception is nearly impossible.  The conversation is healthy, and it's fun to really see this applied.

Personally, the feel, the look, the heft, the polish, or the satisfaction of my brain for the nod to esoteric ideologies are all components when it comes to enjoying your audio system.  And I KNOW that when I feel good about something for whatever reason it sounds more like it should.
Yes, but what do you HEAR?

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3629
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2007, 11:26:23 PM »
Yes, but how valuable are these perceptions?  I am "sure" my truck runs better and smoother after I wash it.  It doen't though.  The wash job cost next to nothing, and I have a clean truck to show for it. 

This fussing over the esoteric reminds me of all the paraphenalia in the dope days.  There was ritual and toys and weird gadgets.  But it was just the dope that got you high.  The other stuff contributed to the "fun" of the moment.  I cleave less to ritual these days.
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2007, 11:33:05 AM »
good for you
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2997
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2007, 03:35:35 PM »
Just use lamp cord!  Spend the money on mics, in particular, mic capsules!

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2007, 03:55:13 PM »
I've never used lamp cord but comparing the homedepot diy to the leegeddy cables the difference was very obvious. No financial incentive in that either as the leegeddy's were prototypes and sent to me for listening
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline SparkE!

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 773
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2007, 04:00:50 PM »
I would like to point out something well in advance of the A/B/X testing, should it occur.  In order to be "successful" at identifying which cable is in use, there needs to be some criteria in place that defines exactly what constitutes "success".  I think it's reasonable to insist that the test subject must be able to identify which cable is in use with significantly more certainty than could be achieved by merely guessing.  By guessing, we should expect a 50% success rate, but just because the guy happens to choose correctly more than half the time is not sufficient to declare him a winner.  The fact is that he should be expected  to choose correctly 50% of the time and he should be expected to choose wrong 50% of the time.  For a given set of trials, though, it's very likely (nearly 100% likely if the number of trials is large and even, 100% if the number of trials is an odd number) that the number of correct choices and incorrect choices will not be identical.  Also, we need to remember that if I do trials where I flip a coin 100 times, I'd expect that in 99% of those trials, the number of heads will be between 37 and 63.  (This is based on the binomial cumulative distribution function with probability of success of heads of 50% and 100 coin flips.)  So we have 99% confidence that if someone flips 64 or more heads out of 100 flips that the coin is biased towards heads.  But the question we have to ask is, "is it a strong bias?"  If the coin, on the average flipped heads 63% of the time, 50% of the time it would give 64 heads or more out of 100 flips.  Being right 63% of the time is not a strong bias, so just picking the right cable 64 out of 100 times tells us that we're 99% sure that he can pick the right one more than 50% of the time, but we can't say that he has more than 63% confidence in his choices.  That's not very good in my opinion.  I'd like to see something more like 95% confidence.  In that case, we'd expect him to pick the right one 95 times or more out of 100 tries.  The chances of him doing that by pure 50% chance are vanishingly small.  You could spend all your time flipping a coin and never get 95 heads out of 100 trials and in fact, it's very likely that you would not have time in your entire lifetime to accomplish that feat.  Or 100 lifetimes.

But guess what?  They aren't going to to 100 trials.  That would be way too fatiguing to the test subject.  I bet that they do 15  or less.  With only 15 trials, it's not until he gets 12 of 15 trials correct that we know  with 99% confidence that the results could not have been obtained by 50% chance.  If his confidence level was 95%, we'd expect him to get 14 of 15 right at least half the time and 97% of the time, he'd get 12 or more correct.  So, by changing the number of trials from 100 down to 15, we require a higher percentage of success to achieve the same level of confidence that we've reached the correct conclusion about the test subject's ability to tell the difference between cables.

Of course, it's not up to us to set the criteria for these trials.  Those will be set by someone else.  We just need to keep in mind that we need to look at what the math actually says about the results that they publish.  It's pretty easy to make persuasive-sounding arguments using data that only weakly supports your assertions.  I'll be watching their results with a critical eye and I hope the rest of you will too.  Don't be fooled by their words.  Their numbers will tell the real story.
How'm I supposed to read your lips when you're talkin' out your ass? - Lern Tilton

Ignorance in audio is exceeded only by our collective willingness to embrace and foster it. -  Srajan Ebaen

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3629
  • Gender: Male
Re: James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2007, 10:27:30 AM »
Darn, there you go with facts and science again.   :)

Good points.  A 50-50 split means nothing; and it takes a high number of correct choices to mean success.  Let's see if anyone takes the test.  I am not too surprised the fellow who makes the Pear cables has not offered.  It seems like a lack of confidence in his product.
Nov schmoz kapop.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.089 seconds with 33 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF