Topic: 4 channels: on stage / stereo mid/side?

[crackmc]

use the fig8 setting on the 414s, and the 481s for the mids?

would this be a stupid idea?
...and how would i master that?

[JiB97]

i don't think this is a stupid idea. as long as you somewhat match the levels when you record, it could turn out nice.  i've always thought of just buying one LD mic to do m/s with but just never got around to it/never had the cash.

[JasonSobel]

are you talking about running two M/S setups on-stage?  What advantage would you gain over just running one M/S (which would only require 2 channels)?  If I were running 4 mics on-stage, I'd do something like 481's XY or DIN in the middle, and set the 414's to omni and put them 5-6 feet apart (of course, a lot of this depends on the size of the stage and the location of the players.  but in general split omnis are great on-stage).

[crackmc]

are you talking about running two M/S setups on-stage?  What advantage would you gain over just running one M/S (which would only require 2 channels)?

i dunno...that's why i'm asking. 

it's the double bacon cheeseburger theory: one patty is great, 2 patties must be TWICE AS GOOD, RIGHT???

i was thinking that this might sound good with a really wide spread and a jazz or acoustic band.

If I were running 4 mics on-stage, I'd do something like 481's XY or DIN in the middle, and set the 414's to omni and put them 5-6 feet apart (of course, a lot of this depends on the size of the stage and the location of the players.  but in general split omnis are great on-stage).

i've done this a few times with great results, which is why i haven't really felt compelled to try anything else. i was just thinking that this may work in the right setting.

[JasonSobel]

well, I guess its always worth a try.  there's only one way to find out how it would really work.  If you do end up trying this out and running two M/S setups (be careful with terminology, as a double M/S setup is a single side channel, a forward facing mid, and a rear facing mid, for a total of 3 recorded channels that can be decoded to surround sound).  Anyway, back to two M/S setups.  I would think that you would want to decode each setup back to stereo L/R before mixing the two sources together.  I can't really picture in my head how this will affect the imaging and sound.  If you do try it out, let us all know how it goes.

[SmokinJoe]

I've had pretty good luck with Mid/Side in the middle (My LSD2) and flanking mics out at the sides of the stage to pick up the things which would be under-represented by the mid mics.  Run this into 4 channels and mix at home.  With this approach, the spacial relationship of the instruments is pretty good... the guy who was standing on the left sounds like he is on the left.

For instance, I tape a friend's "bar band".  There are 3 people who play guitar and vocals front and center, and I put the LSD2 about chest high in the middle, which catches a reasonable amount of vocals and their guitar amps.   Behind them is the drummer, and I get plenty of toms and cymbals.  The Kick drum is under-represented, but that's the way it is.  Off to the sides, about 10' out each way, I have run SD cards (because that's what I have) a few feet from the bass and lead guitar amps.

When I get home I decode the mid/side, and mix in the flanking mics to taste.  It's not as good as a 16track recorder, but it's pretty good.

If you record 2 mid/side sources, you would definitely want to decode them to XY before mixing.  Now the Left channel of the left rig will be left side in the mix, the right channel of the right rig with right side in the mix.  The right side of the left rig, and the left side of the right rig will kind of blend together and should sound up the middle.

[easy jim]

Since there will be some possibly significant differences in the distance between inidividual instruments/sound sources on stage (*see below), I'd be afraid of phasing issues between the two different m/s rig/locations unless you decode/mix each one to mono first and then use the two mono sources as the left and right channels of an ultimate stereo mix.  It's worth a try, but I'd agree with SmokinJoe's suggestion that you're probably going to be better off running the 414s as an m/s pair in the center of the stage lip and using your 480s as flanking mics (ideally w/ omni capsules if you can borrow some).

*

     _______             ____________           ___________         _________        ____________
     GTR AMP                BASS AMP                DRUMS                GTR AMP          KEYS/HORNS





                   M/S PAIR 1                                                                  M/S PAIR 2                                     
    ______________________________________________________________________________
                                                         STAGE LIP

In the scenario above, for instance, the difference in time between when the stage left and stage right guitar amps hit each of the two m/s pairs may result in significant delay differences that are big enough to be audible.  As such, a discreet stereo mix from each of the two m/s pairs will have very different sound staging/spacial imaging compared to the other.  When overlaying those stereo images, I believe the result will be out of phase for some things due to these spatial differences.  If you mix each source to mono, however, that should eliminate the potential for one or another channels of each of the two sources from being out of phase with the corresponding channel of the other source.  However, even if mixing the two disparate m/s pairs two mono, the left mono mix and right mono mix still may be out of phase with each other - but, at least you will not be compounding that by adding potential out of phase issues between corresponding 'left' and 'right' channels if you were to try decoding each m/s pair in stereo before mixing them together.

I think the following set-up produces results that will more consistently allow a stereo mix with minimized phase issues:

     _______             ____________           ___________         _________        ____________
     GTR AMP                BASS AMP                DRUMS                GTR AMP          KEYS/HORNS





                    LEFT FLANK                       M/S PAIR                       RIGHT FLANK                                   
    ______________________________________________________________________________
                                                           STAGE LIP

Here's an example of the m/s center pair + flanking omnis option:  http://www.archive.org/details/gm2007-05-18.akg414midside_452ck22.flac16

[Will_S]

Slightly different strategy, but I know in Bruce Bartlett's book he talks about recordings made with a pair of M/S setups, with one way up close and a second setup further back in the hall, mixed in much lower.  It apparently adds a sense of spaciousness that strictly coincident setups usually lack.

[beanstalk]

I've run the 414 onmi's split about 3-5 feet a bunch of times and had great results on there own. Adding 481's in the middle would have have been great. Not a huge fan of the M/S onstage on its own but have heard some great tapes. It depends on all on the onstage setup.
I always wanted to try doing more the fig8s. A/B's or split 3-5 feet.