Topic: 3 Zigma Chi (ADK Custom Shop) SD mics

[bryonsos]

OK, Bryon + a tax return = more mics. I've been loving my A51-TLs so much that I started looking closely at the 3 Zigma Chi kits from the ADK Custom Shop. I did some looking around, and it appears that nobody on TS has kicked these particular tires, and rather than buy something that others have used, I decided to see if these might be useful for our hobby. This set was purchased through Zen Pro Audio, and is a custom kit put together for me by Larry and his team at ADK. If you haven't read up on these before, here's the link:

http://hybridmic.adkmic.com/

The short version about them, is that you can combine any combination of SD and LD capsules with their bodies. I elected to start out with the SDs + transformerless bodies (HA-TL-II). Due to a miscommunication and the fact that Larry is super cool, I also have the transformer coupled bodies (HA-FX) and an extra set of free field omnis to try out vs the diffuse field ones. He's going to let me play with everything for a month before I have to decide what I'm going to keep.

First of all, the craftsmanship, quality and feel of these is outstanding. Larry put my kit together in what is normally the 4x10 box, so that I'll "have space for the lollipops" when I get them. He's probably right, the lollipops do look sweet, but baby steps for now. He also indicated that omni (soon) and figure 8 (much further off) LD caps are on the horizon. For now, just the SDs for me.

The wooden box is very high quality, each item came in its own individual bag with silica, and like most ADK mounts, the shock mounts are tanks, solidly built, probably overkill, but sexy. The mics are uber sexy too, a nice length that should make most stereo patterns easy to accomplish on a standard stereo bar without risers etc. They feel solid, and the extra locking ring on the bodies is a nice feature. Everything just screams excellence IMHO, great attention to detail as expected from ADK.

Pictures 1&2, the wooden and storage box + contents.
Picture 3, the HA-TL-II and HA-FX bodies.
Pictures 4&5, the capsules - diffuse field omni, free field omni, hyper and card caps (top to bottom).

These babies will be in the field tomorrow, check back for some comps if you're interested.

[Jimna]

Lets hear them.

[Hypnocracy]

Transformers and TLess...

Bryonsos is one silver tongued microphone huffer...to talk them into that arrangement

The gods have smiled on me...I'll be there for the maiden voyage...we should run a whole ADK tree and stage setup for teh Pour House Big Something Saturday....A-51 TL omni on stage and what else...

[OOK]

Lets hear them.

Yeah.. what he said!

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I have a chubby the size of a TL just looking at these...  Wassup, Sweet Potato?!?

Run the Omnis into your R44...  Perfect tool to comp the Bodies/Caps... 

I'm jealous!

Terry

[bryonsos]

I forgot to mention, all 4 cap sets came with matching charts. I also should say that Warren (owner) at Zen Pro played a big part in getting this set put together for me. I'd do business with him again in a heartbeat!

[kirk97132]

I know that this will seem like salt in the wound but for 2800 you could have got this:
• 4 stainless steel transformerless mic amp bodies
• 6 stainless steel small diaphragm mic capsules (pairs of cardioid, hypercardioid and free field omni)
• 8 stainless steel large diaphragm mic capsules (pairs of C-LOL-12, C-LOL-251, C-LOL-47 and C-LOL-67)
• 4 shockmounts
• 2 brass transformerless mic amp bodies
• 2 brass small diaphragm mic capsules (pair of diffuse field omni).
• Two wood cases


http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/msg/2979570149.html

[sdelsolray]

I know that this will seem like salt in the wound but for 2800 you could have got this:
• 4 stainless steel transformerless mic amp bodies
• 6 stainless steel small diaphragm mic capsules (pairs of cardioid, hypercardioid and free field omni)
• 8 stainless steel large diaphragm mic capsules (pairs of C-LOL-12, C-LOL-251, C-LOL-47 and C-LOL-67)
• 4 shockmounts
• 2 brass transformerless mic amp bodies
• 2 brass small diaphragm mic capsules (pair of diffuse field omni).
• Two wood cases


http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/msg/2979570149.html

That's my set I'm selling here in Portland.  They're great mics but I don't require that much diversity and the Gefell and Schopes mics I have are the ones I usually end up using for my limited application of home studio recording of solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar.

[bryonsos]

Kirk, that is sweet, but I'm liking the relationship I'm building with Larry and Warren. They're taking very good care of me. Somebody is going to get some sweet mics at an insane price!

[kirk97132]

Kirk, that is sweet, but I'm liking the relationship I'm building with Larry and Warren. They're taking very good care of me. Somebody is going to get some sweet mics at an insane price!

They are just out of reach for me believe me I tried to talk the guy into some knida deal.....AH no worries, I've had many dealings with Larry and he is a great guy.  He has ALWAYS taken good care of me and any of my insane questions.

[bryonsos]

Here's the first comp as promised. This is the HA-FX cards vs a highly regarded cardioid, I did everything I could to make this as even of a comp as possible. Both sources are mic (DIN, DFC, @~9ft up, ~25ft from stage) > R44. One source is ~6in higher, and ~2in forward of the other source. This is as close as I could get them with the clamps etc that we had there.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

The samples are of the same song, so they can be loaded into your DAW together for switching back and forth. The gain on the R44 was set as evenly as possible, with both sources peaking at ~-12db, and the files are 24/48, no normalization etc. These are the raw masters flac'd in Audacity. I think both sources sound pretty darn good. If I came home with either of these tapes, I'd be very happy. I got to bring both home    I have some impressions that I'll share, but now I'm interested to hear what you think.

Up next, the omnis.

[acidjack]

I'm a bigger fan of the second source (Source2).  To me it has a tighter, more direct sound.... better low end, more clarity through the highs and mids. Oddly the second one sounds much more directional as well... there is less of that idiot talking in the left channel.  I feel like Source 1 is just a lot flatter; if I had made that recording I'd probably tweak it with some EQ. That also tells me Source 1 may actually be the more expensive mic.

I almost feel like source 2 just seems to be closer to the source.  I know you said they aren't placed exactly the same, but I'm surprised how much closer Source 2 feels to me.

[fleish]

I'm a bigger fan of the second source (Source2).  To me it has a tighter, more direct sound.... better low end, more clarity through the highs and mids.

^This

[newplanet7]

I'm a bigger fan of the second source (Source2).  To me it has a tighter, more direct sound.... better low end, more clarity through the highs and mids.

^This

x3

[bryonsos]

I'm a bigger fan of the second source (Source2).  To me it has a tighter, more direct sound.... better low end, more clarity through the highs and mids. Oddly the second one sounds much more directional as well... there is less of that idiot talking in the left channel.  I feel like Source 1 is just a lot flatter; if I had made that recording I'd probably tweak it with some EQ. That also tells me Source 1 may actually be the more expensive mic.

I almost feel like source 2 just seems to be closer to the source.  I know you said they aren't placed exactly the same, but I'm surprised how much closer Source 2 feels to me.

acidjack got it right. At the Pour House we can't use stands, so we hang down off of the balcony and aim the boom pole at the sweet spot. The sound guy has his measurement mic mounted there and he painted a dot on the floor so it's pretty easy to find. Source 2 ended up more perfectly on the sweet spot than #2. I've wondered about this before having run identical mics from this spot, and gotten nuanced results. I'm thinking that since the cabinets are hanging, we're more or less aiming for them with this setup. In this case, I'm thinking #1 was closer to the optimal height, and since they were a few inches closer to the stacks it combined to make them sound closer. This actually helps me for knowing how low to hang mics in the future, so thanks for catching that. For the guy talking, #1 was a few inches closer to head height. I'm surprised by all this but not shocked. I'm thinking #1 suffered from proximity to the balcony and suboptimal height. When I go downstairs to listen at the sweet spot, I've noticed a difference when I'm a foot or two from the spot, I just never imagined it was that profound.

There's at least 3 others who dl'd, I'll give them a bit before "unveiling" the sources. I'm also trying to figure out how to make a file that alternates between sources in audacity for another song with less crowd noise.

Cheers!

[Hypnocracy]

Ok...I was one of the Downloaders...But I concur with the first two evaluations...and say to my ears source one is smooth sounding...source two is tight and crisp...the difference is not to put down either...it's like playing two fine broken in Acoustic guitars...a Gibson D50 and then a Martin D18 both get the job done in fine fashion but differently...

Bryonsos....Next time you see Walstib grab my windtech and AKG stereo bar...that way you have two identical clamp-stereo bars to mount one normally but below and one above but upside down to get the microphones the exact distance front to back and with in a couple of inches in the vertical plane...you can hang on to them til the shootout is done

[acidjack]

^^ I've also had luck using my Manfrotto arm and just putting one set up and one set down using two rapid adapters.  The Manfrotto arm has a pretty long end for doing so. 

If that isn't available, two windtechs would definitely get the job done in the same way.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Bryonsos....Next time you see Walstib grab my windtech and AKG stereo bar...that way you have two identical clamp-stereo bars to mount one normally but below and one above but upside down to get the microphones the exact distance front to back and with in a couple of inches in the vertical plane...you can hang on to them til the shootout is done

I have one of these bad boys, if it will help:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/on-stage-stands-my700-mic-bar/452073000000000?src=3WWRWXGB&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CPuPwP2k7q8CFQYKKgode3AX7g

Terry

[Gutbucket]

Lots of toys in the box.  I'll try to give this a listen tonight.

[bryonsos]

Ok...I was one of the Downloaders...But I concur with the first two evaluations...and say to my ears source one is smooth sounding...source two is tight and crisp...the difference is not to put down either...it's like playing two fine broken in Acoustic guitars...a Gibson D50 and then a Martin D18 both get the job done in fine fashion but differently...

Bryonsos....Next time you see Walstib grab my windtech and AKG stereo bar...that way you have two identical clamp-stereo bars to mount one normally but below and one above but upside down to get the microphones the exact distance front to back and with in a couple of inches in the vertical plane...you can hang on to them til the shootout is done

I like the D50 vs D18 analogy! Like I said before, I'm very happy with both pulls, but they are different upon critical listening. I have a 2nd WindTech (thanks Terry) but I'd need that 2nd stereo bar to do things perfectly, I'll grab that off Walstib62 for the next round. I really thought that everything would be equal enough for the comp, but some spaces are less forgiving of placement. Having said that, the "closeness" isn't the main difference I hear. Here are my thoughts without revealing yet:

If you flip between sources, it does take some concentration before the differences reveal themselves.

I hear a crispness in the highs around 2-3k in source 1 that 2 has, but not as pronounced. I found the vocal clarity to benefit from this.

Both have nice bass, plenty of detail, but source 2 has superior bass overall that lends itself to the overall smoothness or tightness or whatever that gives a pleasant fullness that I think we're all hearing. YMMV

[Gutbucket]

[displays personal bias]

Maybe it's more like a Taylor 514.

[bryonsos]

A second song (a) added that has less crowd interference. I put both 24/48 flacs and mp3s this time.

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

[alpine85]

Both sources are nice.

I prefer source 2 (at least on my near-field monitors, I do)

Source 2 has a fatter, rounder bass, while source 1 has a tighter, punchier bass

I heard more detail in the cymbals around the 5 minute mark on source 2, and more detail in that "plucky" sound around 6 min. 

The 2-3 kHz bump in source 1 that you mention comes across to me as more sibilance, but not necessarily more detail in the vocals.

(replying to the first pair of tracks here.. I see you have added a second pair which I'll give a listen to later on... )

[bryonsos]

OK, the unveiling.

Source 1 = 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (transformer) cards
Source 2 = AKG C461B

It's no surprise that everybody identified the signature fat bottom of the AKGs. It's also not a big shock that they were preferred overall, I would characterize them as premium mics, and the 3Zs as either mid or high level mics. For the successor to the 460, the 480, you can get a single body and 2 caps for about the same price as this complete SD stereo set (matched) of 3Zs. I think the 3Zs hold their own nicely, and think that they could be ideal for someone looking for an upgrade from an entry level rig. The flexibility of having either transformer coupled or transformerless bodies, complete set of SD caps, a variety of LD options with more on the way, and tubes on the horizon make these very attractive in general IMHO. acidjack pointed out in a PM that in order to get that level of options, you have to go to Schoeps.

I'll do another card comp that's hopefully a bit more even, I'll also do the omni comp. I don't have a set of 63s, so I can't do the hyper comp. Is anybody willing to loan me a set of 63s for a week or two? I might even be willing to loan the mics and hypers to a respected TSer to get the comp done. Either way, PM me and we'll figure out how to make it happen.

[heehaw]

where are this mics made?
Frontendaudio have a great deal on them not so long ago - 30%Off.

[bryonsos]

where are this mics made?
Frontendaudio have a great deal on them not so long ago - 30%Off.

ADK is from Oregon, and the custom shop where they make the 3Zs is in Washington. That's another plus IMHO, I'll buy American over foreign every chance I get.

Definitely check both FrontEnd and Zen Pro, either way talk to someone in person to get the best deal. If you talk to Warren at Zen Pro, tell him Bryon sent you, that could help us both out! 

[newplanet7]

Thanks for the comp Bry! I always love when fellow TS'ers put these together.
I figured on clarity and detail alone that my choice of #2 would yield the 460/ck61 set-up.
The bass clarity and fullness was the single-most noticeable characteristic of what I love in a tape.
Thanks again my brother!

[bryonsos]

Thanks for the comp Bry! I always love when fellow TS'ers put these together.
I figured on clarity and detail alone that my choice of #2 would yield the 460/ck61 set-up.
The bass clarity and fullness was the single-most noticeable characteristic of what I love in a tape.
Thanks again my brother!

Thanks Todd! It's been fun so far, but then it's always fun to play with new toys. Looks like I'm taping some bluegrass tonight in a crappy sounding room (Cat's Cradle). Can't decide if I'm going to try out the hypers solo or try the card comp again.    Probably have the best chance to get a decent pull with the hypers.

Here's a link to the complete 3Z recording on LMA:

http://archive.org/details/bs2012-05-05.bryonsos

[OOK]

Wow these are really nice sounding mics....  hhmmmmm....   man the wife is gonna be pissed...

[bryonsos]

3Zs in the field.

[bryonsos]

Challenging room under good circumstances, tonight the sound was good but the room was mostly empty. Anyway, here's an example of the hypers, I think it sounds niiiiiice! HA-FX hypers (DIN, @~8ft, FOB) > R44. I ran SBD too, so I'll do a matrix for posting.

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

[OOK]

Challenging room under good circumstances, tonight the sound was good but the room was mostly empty. Anyway, here's an example of the hypers, I think it sounds niiiiiice! HA-FX hypers (DIN, @~8ft, FOB) > R44. I ran SBD too, so I'll do a matrix for posting.

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

Do you have sign up for media fire...?  I don't see the link....

[bryonsos]

Challenging room under good circumstances, tonight the sound was good but the room was mostly empty. Anyway, here's an example of the hypers, I think it sounds niiiiiice! HA-FX hypers (DIN, @~8ft, FOB) > R44. I ran SBD too, so I'll do a matrix for posting.

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

Do you have sign up for media fire...?  I don't see the link....

No, just click on it and it should take you to a folder with all the files.

[bryonsos]

When are we gonna hear the Omni's?

If Jim and Lee can make the taping happen on Saturday I'll run em vs 462s.

[Hypnocracy]

When are we gonna hear the Omni's?

If Jim and Lee can make the taping happen on Saturday I'll run em vs 462s.

SWEET

[jbell]

There is a set of these for sale on gearslutz with six caps and eight LD caps for $2850. 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gearslutz-secondhand-gear-classifieds/676670-3-zigma-chi-mic-set-pair-josephson-series-6-mics-pair-avantone-cv-28-mics.html

[achalsey]

There is a set of these for sale on gearslutz with six caps and eight LD caps for $2850. 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gearslutz-secondhand-gear-classifieds/676670-3-zigma-chi-mic-set-pair-josephson-series-6-mics-pair-avantone-cv-28-mics.html

The dude's craigslist add was posted earlier.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155417.msg1964376#msg1964376

[bryonsos]

He's going to have to change that listing

[Hypnocracy]

Sweeter than candy on a stick
Huckleberry, chimry or lime
If you had a choice
He'd be your pick
But lollipop is mine
Lollipop lollipop
Oh lolli lolli lolli
Lollipop lollipop.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-DuC0tE7V4

[F.O.Bean]

I dont see a link for the hypers on mediafire, and Im a member

[bryonsos]

I dont see a link for the hypers on mediafire, and Im a member

Same folder, files named hypers_fob just for you Bean 

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

[F.O.Bean]

Still cant see it It just takes me to my UL Files homepage and there isnt a hypers/fob folder Never had this problem before w/ mediafire

[bryonsos]

Still cant see it It just takes me to my UL Files homepage and there isnt a hypers/fob folder Never had this problem before w/ mediafire

Hmmm. The folder is named 3Z mic comp, inside there are 2 files out of 8 called hypers_fob.flac or mp3. Try again, I'll try putting them in a new folder if you can't see them. I'll check back in a min...

[flipp]

they must be having problems as it takes me to the home page and doesn't recognize my l/p when I try to sign in

[bryonsos]

Someone just grabbed it. Not sure what's going on.

http://www.mediafire.com/#5e7q7vvle5925

[OOK]

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

That would be me....  There is a difference between the links... The orignal link has a "?" before the 5.. where the second link had a "#" before the 5...   I went back to the orinal post and the hypers showed up....

[flipp]

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

That would be me....  I went back to the orinal post and the hypers showed up....

thanks for the tip, that works for me

[bryonsos]

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

That would be me....  I went back to the orinal post and the hypers showed up....

thanks for the tip, that works for me

Yes OOK, thanks. It looks like a few folks grabbed it last night. FYI, it's from the Cats Cradle. Great venue from a historical perspective, and because they're able to book a lot of national acts. The room however is a big steel and concrete box with minimal wall treatments etc. It's echoey under good circumstances, and that night the crowd was thin, so it's a bit more pronounced. So, I'll amend my earlier comment, the hypers sound niiiiice (for that room, under those conditions)

[bryonsos]

OK, here's a couple files from a MUCH BETTER hyper pull from last night. Same room and setup except the mic angle was slightly less than 90 deg, probably 85. I did this to try to reduce the reflective sounds off the walls. Also, the crowd was much larger last night, so there were plenty of bodies to soak up the reflections. The 2 new files are:

hypers_fob2.flac (or mp3) The Wandering, Wang Dang Doodle
hypers_fob3.flac (or mp3) The Gourds, I Want It So Bad

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

I have some CK63 caps on the way, so I'll be able to do a hyper comp soon. If all goes well tonight, I'll have an outdoor amphitheater pull 3Z diffuse omni vs 462s to share tomorrow.

p.s. Thanks to vanark for hooking me up with a guest spot for Luther (solo) and The Wandering. Killer show!

[bryonsos]

The omni comp X2. Taped with Walstib62 last night, so I ended up with a multicomp. The first set of files are:

source1omni.flac and source2omni.flac

This is the AKG C462B vs 3Z diffuse omnis. The omnis were both spread @3ft, 8ft high, approx 100ft from stage. This was at an outdoor amphitheater. The second set of files are from a small outdoor stage, same spread and height, but only 40ft from the stage. In this case, the comp is between JBMod Nakamichi CM300/CP3s vs 3Z diffuse omni. The files are:

2ndsource1omni.flac and 2ndsourceomni.flac

In general, I consider the CP3s to be the gold standard of omnis, so I was really happy to do this comp. I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts. Mine = 

http://www.mediafire.com/?5e7q7vvle5925

[bryonsos]

The 3Zs are on top, the AKGs below by ~6in. Walstib62s JBmod Nak CP4s are in the middle.

[Hypnocracy]

I'd give the edge to source 1 on the CK62/3Z Koko Booth recording...ever so slightly....

I don't know what the other show sounded like...but

For the SECOND source files...the Source 1 would be my choice to fly...the tom/snare on Source 2 sounded flat and overall distant

[bryonsos]

For the omni comps, source 1 is the 3Zs in both cases. I found the bass response to be excellent, and the highs to be better represented vs both other mics. Overall, I would say that the sound is livelier and perhaps fuller (better rounded) than the other two. Again, I would be pleased if I brought any of these tapes home, but the 3Zs get the edge. I'm going to have to comp these vs the STOs as soon as I get the chance.

[Hypnocracy]

I'm going to have to comp these vs the STOs as soon as I get the chance.

[hoppedup]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

[bryonsos]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

We had to break down before SCOTUS (shrugs)

[hoppedup]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

We had to break down before SCOTUS (shrugs)

That's odd. I'm guessing you set up permission through BS and it didn't carry over. Were all nine members of SCOTUS there? Or was it SCOTS? 

[bryonsos]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

We had to break down before SCOTUS (shrugs)

That's odd. I'm guessing you set up permission through BS and it didn't carry over. Were all nine members of SCOTUS there? Or was it SCOTS? 

Damn autocorrect!

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

We had to break down before SCOTUS (shrugs)

That's odd. I'm guessing you set up permission through BS and it didn't carry over. Were all nine members of SCOTUS there? Or was it SCOTS? 

Clarence on bass...

[Hypnocracy]

Just curious, did you have to break down before the B-52s?

We had to break down before SCOTUS (shrugs)

That's odd. I'm guessing you set up permission through BS and it didn't carry over. Were all nine members of SCOTUS there? Or was it SCOTS? 

Clarence on bass...

Ginsburg on Tenor...Kagan and Breyer would join right in there...in the Sky lord in teh SSSKYYYYYYY

[bryonsos]

Links to full shows with omnis:

http://archive.org/details/bs2012-05-12.bryonsos

http://archive.org/details/bs2012-05-12.fling.bryonsos

The more I listen to these, the more I like them. 

[bryonsos]

Couldn't resist. Here is a pic of the COL-251 capsule next to the SD card. Now I just need something to tape...

[Hypnocracy]

Card Shootout with the ADK's...