Topic: Edirol/Roland R-09HR Tech Review Posted

[guysonic]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.



And great news is the input jacks are solid through-hole soldered so no more break-away jacks!  See photos below and discussion of this and more inside the review.

[Dede2002]

+T. Thanks for one more great review 

[illconditioned]

Wow.  Thanks for all the technical details.

Any explanation for the multiples of 1kHz on the mic inputs?  Both the R09 and the HR???  I haven't noticed this, but others have reported it.  Seems suspicious to me.  Why can't manufacturers get this right  .

 Richard

[flintstone]

Many thanks.  This and the LS-10 review posted in two days -- It must be
raining in Oregon! 

What's with the 6dB to 10dB spikes in self-noise every 1000 Hz above 8000 Hz? 
Some sort of digital signal processing issue?  It looks like the R-09 had similar
spikes, but not as great an amplitude.

One correction -- in the blue box at the bottom of the review where you talk
about which memory cards to use, the text reads, "External LS-10 SDHC memory..."
Must be a cut-and-paste error.

Flintstone

[digifish_music]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

[Dede2002]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Really?

[digifish_music]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Really?

Yes, but it seemed odd to me (and it's easy to make mistakes)...so I was interested to see confirmation, just as the spikes I showed have been independently confirmed.

digifish

[guysonic]

Just posted the preliminary technical review of this great deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm

For starters, the HR's MIC input is at least 10 dB quieter than R-09 version as graph shows below.

Nice, thanks for that. BTW: I noticed in my own test the noise floor for 96 kHz was significantly worse than 44.1 kHz, did you see the same thing?

digifish

Also noticed this.  Figure cause is all the highest frequency noise spikes being added when in wider bandwidth 88.2/96k recording modes.

Many thanks.  This and the LS-10 review posted in two days -- It must be
raining in Oregon! 

What's with the 6dB to 10dB spikes in self-noise every 1000 Hz above 8000 Hz? 
Some sort of digital signal processing issue?  It looks like the R-09 had similar
spikes, but not as great an amplitude.

One correction -- in the blue box at the bottom of the review where you talk
about which memory cards to use, the text reads, "External LS-10 SDHC memory..."
Must be a cut-and-paste error.

Flintstone

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

Thank you for proof reading to find the paste error.

Wow.  Thanks for all the technical details.

Any explanation for the multiples of 1kHz on the mic inputs?  Both the R09 and the HR???  I haven't noticed this, but others have reported it.  Seems suspicious to me.  Why can't manufacturers get this right  .

 Richard

Sony is one manufacturer with both the experience and motivation to go the extra mile eliminating this type of noise in final production/shipped decks.

While the noise is at a fairly low level, and mainly at high enough frequencies so not to be audible, it can audibly affect certain audio sound aspects when mixed-recorded into (harmonically rich) acoustic music and other critical natural sounds.   

Eliminating this type of noise takes post design engineering proto-production efforts as its being caused (most times) by PCB circuit trace routing/shielding usually needing a refined redesign of some very critical analog circuit board ground paths, and sometimes insufficient power supply capacitor decoupling of low level mic amplifier first stages.   

If proto-production engineering misses seeing this issue, or if engineering decides it's not worth the trouble to fix, OR if proto-production evaluation is completely missing in a rush to get main production in full swing, these noise issues get passed on to the buyer to solve or live with.

In this case the noise is not terrible, and unlike some other decks with same type issues, can be completely eliminated using the LINE input with a quality low impedance output preamplifier.

[digifish_music]

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

I am really surprised that they line up exactly with the 1000 Hz frequency divisions (but as I now see it is present in the R09 original too). I have asked R&D Japan about this, so waiting for a response. Surely you would expect design noise to be harmonically related to the circuitry and clock frequencies?

Edit: Just a note about your excellent review, you mention the non-slip coating in the same breath as handling noise reduction, while it is definitely nicer to feel - when recording on the internal mics, you still cant slide/move your grip or manipulated any buttons without it being picked up and recorded. For me one of the main mechanical-noise differences is the new unit does not creak or crack when squeezed and the new coating makes losing your grip less likely.

digifish

[Dede2002]

Noise spikes seem to be analog related noise pollution maybe from the switching power supply or digital flash storage operations.  Using LINE input with an external preamp eliminates recording the audio quality effects of this noise.

I am really surprised that they line up exactly with the 1000 Hz frequency divisions (but as I now see it is present in the R09 original too). I have asked R&D Japan about this, so waiting for a response. Surely you would expect design noise to be harmonically related to the circuitry and clock frequencies?

Edit: Just a note about your excellent review, you mention the non-slip coating in the same breath as handling noise reduction, while it is definitely nicer to feel - when recording on the internal mics, you still cant slide/move your grip or manipulated any buttons without it being picked up and recorded. For me one of the main mechanical-noise differences is the new unit does not creak or crack when squeezed and the new coating makes losing your grip less likely.

digifish

My R9HR feels quite solid, but the Power switch rattles.

[bgalizio]

Thanks for the review! Any chance of determining the true "unity gain" for line-in?

[midden]

I read your reviews of both the Olympus LS-10 and the Edirol R-09HR and decided to settle on the Edirol R-09HR. I plan on recording mostly very heavy metal, i.e. death metal. I'm curious about your opinion on the following: your DSM-6S /EL are the only mics I've seen that specifically mention being tailored to metal, thus piquing my interest. However, the cost of them plus the PA-3SX are $1100, adding in the cost of the R-09HR, this is only about $150 less than a Sony PCM-D1. You mention that the PCM-D50 is the only solid state recorder that can power your DSM mics "out of the box", as such even though it is more expensive, the whole package would be less because the PA-3SX would be superfluous. Is this a better setup for the money. Or is just going to straight to the PCM-D1 the way to go if you have this much money to spend? I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, thank you for your time.

[digifish_music]

I read your reviews of both the Olympus LS-10 and the Edirol R-09HR and decided to settle on the Edirol R-09HR. I plan on recording mostly very heavy metal, i.e. death metal. I'm curious about your opinion on the following: your DSM-6S /EL are the only mics I've seen that specifically mention being tailored to metal, thus piquing my interest. However, the cost of them plus the PA-3SX are $1100, adding in the cost of the R-09HR, this is only about $150 less than a Sony PCM-D1. You mention that the PCM-D50 is the only solid state recorder that can power your DSM mics "out of the box", as such even though it is more expensive, the whole package would be less because the PA-3SX would be superfluous. Is this a better setup for the money. Or is just going to straight to the PCM-D1 the way to go if you have this much money to spend? I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, thank you for your time.

Just a question do you need to record stealth or not? If not, $1100 buys you a lot of outboard gear (mic preamp + microphones).

digifish

[gmm6797]

Have we been able to determine, for sure, that any volume setting will work and that a "unity setting" (like with the R-09) is not needed?

[midden]

It definitely has to be stealth. I really just want to know what are the best microphones with which to record bass. I have read quite alot of posts here on this forum and elsewhere and no one really seems to quantitative tests with these stealthy mics, only qualitative, and no one I've seen has recorded anything similar to what I'm going to be using them for. So many people have thrown mics out there and the alphabet soup has made me unsure of whether or not I'm looking at the right microphone. For example, I've seen people talk about HEBs, sometimes with the Core Sounds name thrown in as well, http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php, are these them? Church Audio STC-x, Sound Professional SP-BMC-x, Danish Pro Audio DPA-4xxx, Audio Technica mics; Felmicamp 3.5x, PA-3SX pre-amps, nboxs, some of these have identical frequency response and SNR, adding to my frustration to find meaningful differentiation.

I'm not really in the market to spend ~$1500, however I know that quality is remembered long after price is forgotten, I want something that the experts know is damn near the best possible setup for stealth circumstances. So, if that means spending an extra $100, $300, or even $500, then I'll do it because the peace of mind knowing that I'll be able to make high fidelity recordings for several years is also worth something... So, I do already have the Edirol R-09HR, when I bought it I didn't think I would need to spend over a $1000 MORE dollars in order to make it GOOD. I would just like recommendations for the best mic/pre-amp OR just mic OR mic/BB setup for my purposes, i.e. loud metal concerts.

[gmm6797]

From a metal perspective, schoeps mics (MK4, MK4v, etc) into a schoeps VMS5 pre (not all that stealthy) works fine, but I have yet to find anything that does not overload when they pyro's go off... but this is also probably out of your budget

[digifish_music]

It definitely has to be stealth. I really just want to know what are the best microphones with which to record bass. I have read quite alot of posts here on this forum and elsewhere and no one really seems to quantitative tests with these stealthy mics, only qualitative, and no one I've seen has recorded anything similar to what I'm going to be using them for. So many people have thrown mics out there and the alphabet soup has made me unsure of whether or not I'm looking at the right microphone. For example, I've seen people talk about HEBs, sometimes with the Core Sounds name thrown in as well, http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php, are these them? Church Audio STC-x, Sound Professional SP-BMC-x, Danish Pro Audio DPA-4xxx, Audio Technica mics; Felmicamp 3.5x, PA-3SX pre-amps, nboxs, some of these have identical frequency response and SNR, adding to my frustration to find meaningful differentiation.

I'm not really in the market to spend ~$1500, however I know that quality is remembered long after price is forgotten, I want something that the experts know is damn near the best possible setup for stealth circumstances. So, if that means spending an extra $100, $300, or even $500, then I'll do it because the peace of mind knowing that I'll be able to make high fidelity recordings for several years is also worth something... So, I do already have the Edirol R-09HR, when I bought it I didn't think I would need to spend over a $1000 MORE dollars in order to make it GOOD. I would just like recommendations for the best mic/pre-amp OR just mic OR mic/BB setup for my purposes, i.e. loud metal concerts.

Not wishing to rain on sonic studios parade in his own thread, he makes excellent gear. There is a first and nearly cost free step you can make now you have an R09HR, for $49 you could start with a par of these http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2 and the inboard plugin power of the HR. They would have no problem picking up the bass (there is a low and high sensitivity model, you'd better check with SP as I am not sure they have the max-vol specs the right way around for the two models).

It's a very cheap place to start and will do a very good job. I use a pair of http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2 (based on the same panasonic WM61-A capsules) for a lot of field recording/stealth situation and have no problems with the quality (particularly at the price).

The main issue for you is overloading the mics, in which case some more voltage may be needed to handle it (external battery box). However IMO when the sound is overloading the mics, it's also overloading your ears and you should move to somewhere quieter

You can always make your own too...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94446.0/all.html

digifish

[illconditioned]

The main issue for you is overloading the mics, in which case some more voltage may be needed to handle it (external battery box). However IMO when the sound is overloading the mics, it's also overloading your ears and you should move to somewhere quieter

You can always make your own too...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94446.0/all.html

digifish

Good suggestions, but you will get overload at *any* amplified rock show.  At least if you go over 100dBA or so, which is typical for rock shows.  The simple fix is to hack the mic capsule (often cutting the traces on the back) and insert a 2.2 or 4.7k resistor between the source of the FET and the ground (case of the capsule).  This all but eliminates distortion, and it still works with "standard" power setups (either plug in power from the recorder, or an external "battery box").  You can find some technical details, and an alternative way of powering mics at: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

Soundpros should *not* be selling mics with the standard wiring for concert recording.  They will not work well at all for amplified shows. I think you can ask them for properly wired ("loud tolerant") ones, or you can buy from Chris Church, as he does this mod to all his mics.  There is nothing technically difficult here, but it does require some careful work, cutting traces, wiring, mounting, packaging, etc for the capsules to make them sound as good as possible.

  Richard

[digifish_music]

Good suggestions, but you will get overload at *any* amplified rock show.  At least if you go over 100dBA or so, which is typical for rock shows.  The simple fix is to hack the mic capsule (often cutting the traces on the back) and insert a 2.2 or 4.7k resistor between the source of the FET and the ground (case of the capsule).  This all but eliminates distortion, and it still works with "standard" power setups (either plug in power from the recorder, or an external "battery box").  You can find some technical details, and an alternative way of powering mics at: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

Soundpros should *not* be selling mics with the standard wiring for concert recording.  They will not work well at all for amplified shows. I think you can ask them for properly wired ("loud tolerant") ones, or you can buy from Chris Church, as he does this mod to all his mics.  There is nothing technically difficult here, but it does require some careful work, cutting traces, wiring, mounting, packaging, etc for the capsules to make them sound as good as possible.

  Richard

Useful follow up Richard, just a point...

SPL                        Maximum acceptable exposure time.

85 dB                      8 hours
88 dB                      4 hours
91 dB                      2 hours
94 dB                      1 hour
97 dB                      ½ hour
100 dB                    15 mins
103 dB                    7 ½ mins
106 dB                    3 ½ mins     

I am a big believer that if you are overloading your mics you should not be there recording (or at least have hearing protection). I know this is an anathema to many of you here  If you have ringing in your ears after a concert then you have damaged your ears. It's cumulative so it's not too late to start looking after your valuable hearing...

http://www.e-a-r.com/hearingconservation/faq_main.cfm

http://www.dontlosethemusic.com/home/areyouatrisk/earplugs/

digifish 

[gmm6797]

fwiw, 2 comments:

* I have a DB meter, and most shows I have been to read about 103-106 dB at ear level
* I bought custom molded ear plugs from an audiologies and I have never looked back to the foam "throw aways" I used to love... save the ears!  My dad, at 50, had huge hearing loss from being in a band in his late teens, and he is paying more for ear doctors (and related hearing aids, etc) than I bet he made from the band... and they were pretty damn popular!

[digifish_music]

fwiw, 2 comments:

* I have a DB meter, and most shows I have been to read about 103-106 dB at ear level
* I bought custom molded ear plugs from an audiologies and I have never looked back to the foam "throw aways" I used to love... save the ears!  My dad, at 50, had huge hearing loss from being in a band in his late teens, and he is paying more for ear doctors (and related hearing aids, etc) than I bet he made from the band... and they were pretty damn popular!

Indeed +T's all round. If you are worried about fidelity, then search eBay for Etymotic. That said I have used foam earplugs while at venues and after you adapt the "filter curve" they impose, the sound quality even through them is quite pleasurable. Another phenomenon I have noticed is that if a you are wearing earplugs it is quite possible to have a conversation with someone (also wearing earplugs) without shouting (you just need to speak next to the ear), the voice just seems to cut through the mix.

OT session over

[illconditioned]

Good suggestions, but you will get overload at *any* amplified rock show.  At least if you go over 100dBA or so, which is typical for rock shows.  The simple fix is to hack the mic capsule (often cutting the traces on the back) and insert a 2.2 or 4.7k resistor between the source of the FET and the ground (case of the capsule).  This all but eliminates distortion, and it still works with "standard" power setups (either plug in power from the recorder, or an external "battery box").  You can find some technical details, and an alternative way of powering mics at: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

Soundpros should *not* be selling mics with the standard wiring for concert recording.  They will not work well at all for amplified shows. I think you can ask them for properly wired ("loud tolerant") ones, or you can buy from Chris Church, as he does this mod to all his mics.  There is nothing technically difficult here, but it does require some careful work, cutting traces, wiring, mounting, packaging, etc for the capsules to make them sound as good as possible.

  Richard

Useful follow up Richard, just a point...

SPL                        Maximum acceptable exposure time.

85 dB                      8 hours
88 dB                      4 hours
91 dB                      2 hours
94 dB                      1 hour
97 dB                      ½ hour
100 dB                    15 mins
103 dB                    7 ½ mins
106 dB                    3 ½ mins     

I am a big believer that if you are overloading your mics you should not be there recording (or at least have hearing protection). I know this is an anathema to many of you here  If you have ringing in your ears after a concert then you have damaged your ears. It's cumulative so it's not too late to start looking after your valuable hearing...

http://www.e-a-r.com/hearingconservation/faq_main.cfm

http://www.dontlosethemusic.com/home/areyouatrisk/earplugs/

digifish 

I do wear earplugs (Etymotic -15 and -25dB buttons in custom molded plastic).  I didn't wear them in the past, though.  And I do have some hearing loss to show for it.  Now I have a sound meter (cheap Realistic one, but a meter nonetheless).  I regularly measure over 100 and up to 110dBA in some smaller venues I'm at.

 Richard

[Dede2002]

Hi,

There´s something that's not clear to me. Probably because I do not have proper knowledge. Anyway, I have to ask.
Based on several posts and on guysonic's great report, my conclusion is that the brand new R9HR is noisier when running it's highest resolution (24/96). PLEASE, don't take me wrong: I'm not saying that I disagre. My lack of knowledge is huge, I simply can't disagree. It's just that I'm curious about the reasons that would led a huge corporation (Roland) to put together and sell a product with such bizarre behaviour. If 24/96 is worst, why offering such feature in the first place?
I'm also confused about the fact that it's been suggesting that adding a preamp would solve the problem. How come? The noise spikes also happen with Line In or just Mic in/Internals?
I'm obviously an expert in this matter. Just confused.

[udovdh]

How much more noise at 24/96?
And at 88?
and 48?
44.1?
Etc?

I think I must avoid HR?

[digifish_music]

Hi,

There´s something that's not clear to me. Probably because I do not have proper knowledge. Anyway, I have to ask.
Based on several posts and on guysonic's great report, my conclusion is that the brand new R9HR is noisier when running it's highest resolution (24/96). PLEASE, don't take me wrong: I'm not saying that I disagre. My lack of knowledge is huge, I simply can't disagree. It's just that I'm curious about the reasons that would led a huge corporation (Roland) to put together and sell a product with such bizarre behaviour. If 24/96 is worst, why offering such feature in the first place?
I'm also confused about the fact that it's been suggesting that adding a preamp would solve the problem. How come? The noise spikes also happen with Line In or just Mic in/Internals?
I'm obviously an expert in this matter. Just confused.

Greetings please see...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1422078.html#msg1422078

The noise is only on the mic in. Line in and internal mics are free of any spikes of note. Just to clarify something else, listening to the background noise of an R09 vs R09HR under the same recording conditions (where background hiss is audible), it is immediately evident that the HR is a much quieter unit, there is no contest. If you like the R09 you will love the R09HR.

digifish

[dactylus]

.

[Dede2002]

Hi,

There´s something that's not clear to me. Probably because I do not have proper knowledge. Anyway, I have to ask.
Based on several posts and on guysonic's great report, my conclusion is that the brand new R9HR is noisier when running it's highest resolution (24/96). PLEASE, don't take me wrong: I'm not saying that I disagre. My lack of knowledge is huge, I simply can't disagree. It's just that I'm curious about the reasons that would led a huge corporation (Roland) to put together and sell a product with such bizarre behaviour. If 24/96 is worst, why offering such feature in the first place?
I'm also confused about the fact that it's been suggesting that adding a preamp would solve the problem. How come? The noise spikes also happen with Line In or just Mic in/Internals?
I'm obviously an expert in this matter. Just confused.

Greetings please see...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1422078.html#msg1422078

The noise is only on the mic in. Line in and internal mics are free of any spikes of note. Just to clarify something else, listening to the background noise of an R09 vs R09HR under the same recording conditions (where background hiss is audible), it is immediately evident that the HR is a much quieter unit, there is no contest. If you like the R09 you will love the R09HR.

digifish

Digifish,

Thanks one more time for your tests, I really enjoy them.
 Yes, you're right. The amazing thing is that I saw the link you`re mentioning this afternoon, but I was so intrigued that I had to ask.My bad. Depending on the subject, I need to be told twice to be sure and calm
Please, the following words are not for you, Digifsh.
One more time, I was just curious and did not mean to contest any of the posted technical info ( I see I`ve been slamed and lost 4 Ts in a couple of hours). No disrespect meant.
Take care.

[digifish_music]

...
One more time, I was just curious and did not mean to contest any of the posted technical info ( I see I`ve been slamed and lost 4 Ts in a couple of hours). No disrespect meant.
Take care.

Greetings,

I didn't see your comments in a negative light, indeed they are good questions.

No negative T's from me. When looking at those frequency spectrum plots it's hard not to be shocked by the image and imagine it must sound like crap. But they are ~ at -100 dB, that's why they really are not an issue (IMO). I think most people who will plug into an R09 with external mics will be using the line-in anyway since they will use an external mic-pre. If not then the 09HR is still much better than the R09 original.

I have BTW normalized recordings of silence to to see if I can hear these spikes, and they are lost in a wash of roaring-hiss, so there is no clear 'signal' to be heard.

digifish

[Dede2002]

...
One more time, I was just curious and did not mean to contest any of the posted technical info ( I see I`ve been slamed and lost 4 Ts in a couple of hours). No disrespect meant.
Take care.

Greetings,

I didn't see your comments in a negative light, indeed they are good questions.

No negative T's from me.

digifish

I am 10000000% sure about that, no worries.That's why I said that that was not for you, friend. One more time, I really appreciate your efforts. +T.
BTW, I just came from a great concert. Awesome band, awesome guitars/amps and...no PA  . That's paradise. Almost lost my left ear hearing in the process, but the recording really pleases me ( a 62 Gibson 335 plugged into a Marshall Bluesbreaker like 7 feet away, right on axis to your ears, man, it's quite a mind freaking experience). I'll post one or two samples tomorrow.
24/96, of course 

[guysonic]

Since the R-09HR now has a much quieter MIC preamplifier, thought I try recording our neighborhood ILLIGAL 4th of July fireworks (having many rocket displays) WITHOUT using a LINE preamplifier.
NOTE: fireworks image is a previous year Sutherlin, 4th display.

GEAR:
R-09HR @ 24bit/44.1K in LOW mic input setting at MAX#80 adjustment, mic PIP OFF.
DSM-6S/EH mic, powered by PA-6 battery module into deck's MIC input; HRTF baffled by GUY at 7 foot height.
(Used NO windscreen, but only slight breeze lasting ~1/3 at beginning of recording)

AMBIENT STEREO-SURROUND 2-CHANNEL RECORDING:
Lots of valley reverberation; originally 1.5 hours, reduced to 14.8 min, amplified by 6 dB in post, then converted to 17.8 MEG VBR MP3 file.

DOWNLOAD FILE POSTED AT: www.sonicstudios.com/14.8min7-4-08firew.mp3

SUGGESTION:
Turn up listening volume so background noise is just barely audible for most realistic experience on open type headphones, or wide spaced stereo speakers aimed to focus in front of a centered listening position; this allows very wide stable imaging way-off-center listening ability. (see speaker positioning tips at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

If available, turn on surround speaker Dolby Pro Logic or DTS NEO 6 2-channel to surround decoders for enhanced surround experience.

[digifish_music]

Since the R-09HR now has a much quieter MIC preamplifier, thought I try recording our neighborhood ILLIGAL 4th of July fireworks (having many rocket displays) WITHOUT using a LINE preamplifier.

..

SUGGESTION:
Turn up listening volume so background noise is just barely audible for most realistic experience on open type headphones, or wide spaced stereo speakers aimed to focus in front of a centered listening position; this allows very wide stable imaging way-off-center listening ability. (see speaker positioning tips at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

If available, turn on surround speaker Dolby Pro Logic or DTS NEO 6 2-channel to surround decoders for enhanced surround experience.

Just posting a cross reference on the mic-in noise...Roland R&D replied...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1431168.html#msg1431168

digifish