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Author Topic: R4 & R44 A>D Questions  (Read 21331 times)

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2008, 02:56:07 PM »
Apparently the R-44 has the same input circuitry as the R-4 Pro rather than the R-4, which seems to have a reputation for being noisier.  In case you've not seen the specs, then these are the relevant ones for input -

● Analog Input
Ch 1 - 4: XLR/TRS Combo type
XLR type (phantom powered)
TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)
Stereo Built-in Microphones

● Input Impedance
XLR: 4k ohms or greater (balanced)
TRS: 6k ohms or greater (balanced)

● Nominal Input Level
11 steps:+4,-2-,8,-14,-20,-26,-32,-38,-44,-50,-56
(Input Level Knob: Center)
Input Level Knob: negative infinity to +8 dBu

● Maximum Input
+24 dBu (Input Sens Knob: +4dBu)

● Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise
Line output: 0.02% (Input Sens: +4dBu)

● Noise Level
Line Output: -10dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Center)

● Residual Noise Level
Line Output: -103 dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Minimum)

● Frequency Response
20Hz - 40kHz (0/-3 dB)

● Dynamic Range
AD: 100 dB
DA: 104 dB

● Phantom Power
48V +/- 4V
8mA per 1 channel (20mA or less for all channels)

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders?  It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

Dudes: Take it apart and show me the *guts*!  I'd love to see *detailed* pics of what is inside.  If you give me enough detail, I can even try to trace the circuit for you.

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*.  Maybe you want "color" on the input, then sure, adding an External pre will do that.  But it will not add any detail or improve SNR.  So, to those who put a V2 in front, save your effort and batteries and go directly in.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline F0CKER

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2008, 02:59:45 PM »
Mr. Imburgia: "Son, have you got that piece of door trim hammered like I asked?"

Focker: "Well, I've been dipping it in Makers Mark for 30 mins, is that enough?"



Makers Mark and nail guns don't mix...I learned that the hard way.



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Offline datbrad

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2008, 05:21:08 PM »
Is that through 2 fingers, or just one? That just hurts to look at  :o. Got any shots of your leg break?
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stevetoney

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2008, 05:29:26 PM »
Holy crap, if that's a real x-ray, I think I'd have been choking the Doc to get the freaking nail out instead of sending your down the hall for pictures!

Offline F0CKER

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2008, 05:53:29 PM »
Is that through 2 fingers, or just one? That just hurts to look at  :o. Got any shots of your leg break?

Spiral fracture....somewhere I do, yeah.

That xray isn't real.  I don't play with nail guns when I'm drinking.  Only when people around me are drinking.
Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2008, 07:30:42 PM »
My point about blind tests is that I doubt whether anyone is going to go to the trouble of blind testing the various configurations - to do that properly is a remarkably complex exercise and unless properly done there's little chance of being able to draw a valid conclusion.

So all I can do is to consider the measurements.  I can see no evidence that the R-44's frequency response would noticeably colour the sound of the incoming audio.   "Transparency, warmth, depth, clarity, soundstage" are all subjective terms with no associated measurement criteria - well, ok, transparency could be deemed accuracy (what goes in is what comes out, and the R-44 appears to provide that) - warmth is usually applied to a frequency response that favours lower frequencies compared to higher frequencies, and again, I see nothing in the R-44 response which would provide that.  Clarity - well, perhaps that's upper middle frequency emphasis.  Soundstage - crosstalk, leakage from one channel to another would limit that.  Otherwise thre should be no difference in "soundstage" from one device to another.  It would have to be a pretty poorly designed preamp that didn't keep left and right adequately apart.

Generally if a preamp has a particular sound, I'd avoid it like the plague.  It should be a piece of wire with gain.  These days we are still stuck with the imperfections of loudspeakers and microphones but the rest of the signal chain should, if correctly designed, impart no significant character to the sound passing through it.

I have in mind a possible test of R-44 vs piece of wire...

Offline digifish_music

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2008, 08:28:25 PM »

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*. 

  Richard


I have run the MixPre in front of my R44 and it sounded better...but I was recording ambient sounds and the problem I was trying to fix was high-gain hiss. Hiss fixed, customer happy.

But I don't think either the MixPre or R44 has a 'sound'. Certainly not in comparison to mics and mic placement. But I know a lot of folks around here do, so that puts my comments in context :)

In my experience we are exposed to so many tonal colorations and we adapt to them quite quickly. For me, the minute colorations associated with mic preamp designs pales into insignificance compared to mics, placement and source. Even moving your head 2 feet back from your monitors can easily make 6 dB changes in parts of the frequency spectrum, but we don't seem to care too much about that. The main thing I worry about these days in mic preamps is simply the noise at high gain and feature-set. If I need to make the source sound different, I change the mics position, and if I can't do that I change the mics. If that doesn't work I press record anyway and fix it in post :)   

digifish

« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:34:23 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline illconditioned

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*. 

  Richard


I have run the MixPre in front of my R44 and it sounded better...but I was recording ambient sounds and the problem I was trying to fix was high-gain hiss. Hiss fixed, customer happy.

But I don't think either the MixPre or R44 has a 'sound'. Certainly not in comparison to mics and mic placement. But I know a lot of folks around here do, so that puts my comments in context :)

In my experience we are exposed to so many tonal colorations and we adapt to them quite quickly. For me, the minute colorations associated with mic preamp designs pales into insignificance compared to mics, placement and source. Even moving your head 2 feet back from your monitors can easily make 6 dB changes in parts of the frequency spectrum, but we don't seem to care too much about that. The main thing I worry about these days in mic preamps is simply the noise at high gain and feature-set. If I need to make the source sound different, I change the mics position, and if I can't do that I change the mics. If that doesn't work I press record anyway and fix it in post :)   

digifish



OK, two good points here:

1. yes, I forgot that an external pre may add (noiseless) gain.  For quieter material this will help.  I just don't see putting anything in front of the R4 when you're recording rock and roll I guess.

2. yes, mics make the most difference.  So, don't put anything in front of the R4, just get a better set of mics, lol.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline carlbeck

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2008, 06:42:42 AM »
Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline F0CKER

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2008, 08:18:19 AM »
Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.

I'll report back after the trial run with the Soundfield after labor day weekend.  I'm actually very fired up for the change....and the possibility that I might have a fully functional rig.  What a privelage.

BTW, this was the email I got From Doug Oade re: the R44

"The R44 is designed like a lot of pro gear, that is its gain structure is very adjustable so it is able to take mic thru line level via a single input without a PAD. With the input gain set to +4dB, it accepts a line level input with plenty of headroom and a wide dynamic range"


I'm looking forward to toying around with this thing next Tuesday.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 08:21:22 AM by F0CKER »
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stevetoney

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2008, 08:58:36 AM »
Generally if a preamp has a particular sound, I'd avoid it like the plague.  It should be a piece of wire with gain.  These days we are still stuck with the imperfections of loudspeakers and microphones but the rest of the signal chain should, if correctly designed, impart no significant character to the sound passing through it.

I understand your statement, but it doesn't reflect how I think most on this list look at these components.  Every preamp has its own character that can't be measured on the meter, but it can sure be heard with your ears.  We talk about it here ad-infinitum and many purposefully buy a preamp because of a particular sound characteristic.  When assessing a preamp, people talk in terms of those characteristics. 

I understand you though...your definition of 'good' is just different.  You expect your preamp to pass a signal without any coloration whatsoever.

I would add a thought that just because a V3 might sound different than a mini-MP doesn't make it better or worse, just different. 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 09:08:03 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2008, 09:14:23 AM »
Quote
your definition of 'good' is just different.
Indeed - I like white and others like something else - luckily we are pretty spoiled for choice these days.   I guess I go for 'vanilla' being of the generation that made its first battery portable recordings on something that had valves - and a battery which lasted about 7 minutes.  That was not actually a problem as the tape ran out after only 5 minutes anyway.  Severe colouration of the sound was something that seemed impossible to cure in those days!

Offline F0CKER

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2008, 09:26:20 AM »
I choose my preamps because of the characteristics they add, same with my mics, and A>D.  I don't think there's a truly uncolored rig in existence today - correct me if I'm wrong on that.  The audio signal is going to be affected by the eclectronics in some capacity....go for what sounds good to your ears and your playback setup.

Nevaton MC49 -> Sonosax SX-R4

Offline nottingham

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2008, 10:03:13 AM »
 :cheers:
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Offline carlbeck

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Re: R4 A>D
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2008, 10:26:27 AM »
Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.

I'll report back after the trial run with the Soundfield after labor day weekend.  I'm actually very fired up for the change....and the possibility that I might have a fully functional rig.  What a privelage.

BTW, this was the email I got From Doug Oade re: the R44

"The R44 is designed like a lot of pro gear, that is its gain structure is very adjustable so it is able to take mic thru line level via a single input without a PAD. With the input gain set to +4dB, it accepts a line level input with plenty of headroom and a wide dynamic range"


I'm looking forward to toying around with this thing next Tuesday.


Hmmmm, so according to Doug, I could run my pre-amp into the R44 & get minimal R44 coloration? Also the smaller sensitivity knobs are digital? How do they affect the sound I wonder? I would need to use those as my Aeta would act like a PSP2 with fixed gain (well gain adjustable in 6db steps only) when running all four channels as a trim I imagine.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

 

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