Topic: R4 & R44 A>D Questions

[Craig T]

I'll give Marco a call to let him know you're too much of a pussy to stay up past 11pm on a Friday night because you went out a few nights ago.  Maybe they'll reschedule for a night that works better for you... what's your next few weeks look like?

Ask them to come back in October...I'm booked solid until then.

well, if you change your mind, you know NSB shows never start on time.  I wouldn't expect them to hit the stage until at least 10pm.

and you suck at quoting.   

[rdfager]

I'm only using the 744 as a bit bucket and it has some inherent disadvantages to the Edirols IMO in terms of ease of use when running B Format. 

First, I've got to say that I love my R4.  However, If I was in the market right now, I'd look at the R44 long and hard, especially if I were considering using it as a bit bucket.  I haven't heard a modded R44 yet but I'll bet they sound great and the price is really hard to beat.  The R44 adds a few great features to the R4, namely the ability to run digital in on 2 channels with analog in on the other 2 and not resampling digital in

Either way you go, I don't think you'll miss the 744 too much.  7xx's are nice boxes but the Edirols are great for the price.

[Busman Audio]

I will say that the R44 definitely has some better features than the R4 but I really don't like having to deal with SD cards especially when doing fests or multiple show runs on the road.

The R44 has generally the same feature set as the R4pro and good stock sound but you don't need that. If you don't mind dealing with external media I would just go to the r44 otherwise go with the R4pro for better features than the R4.
Main feature I wish the R4 had is to go digital + analog and the gain gain/trim knobs that the R4pro and R44 have.

If you want good pres a modded R4 is the best choice.

[F0CKER]

It looks like I'm going R44.  I generally prefer havign mass storage capacity but the 744 is only 40Gb and I can get a 32GB card these days so it's basically a moot point. 

There's no card size or file size limit on the R44, is there?

[pmonk66]

So this is where you go on your hiatus?

[F0CKER]

So this is where you go on your hiatus?

 

[joel]

I will say that the R44 definitely has some better features than the R4 but I really don't like having to deal with SD cards especially when doing fests or multiple show runs on the road.

I've had SD cards crap out on me too and have lost pictures so the whole "no hard drive no moveable parts is better" argument doesn't carry as much weight with me. 

[nottingham]

For me, the only time I had problems with the cards cf or sd is when I took them out of the device and used a card reader. As far as I know right now the R-44 only can be used with a 8gb card.

[F0CKER]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

[stevetoney]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

I can't confirm one way or the other, but the R-44 just came earlier this year, so 16 and 32 bit cards were definitely available.  The 8gb limitation, if true, was something that I considered a problem with the R-44.  FWIW, I can't remember if it was the website or the instruction manual says the limitation is 8gb.  If you're recording 4 channels at 24/96, if my math is correct, I'm pretty sure that's only 2 hours of recording.

You earlier said you didn't care about the preamps on the R-44.  You should.  You do realize that on the edirol products I'm pretty sure there's no way to record in a Line In mode, unless that's a new feature on the R-44.  I downloaded the manual and didn't see anywhere in the manual that indicated that it is there.  In the very short time that I owned an R-4, I discovered this fact too late (after I'd already purchased the recorder).  Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like. 

I hope I'm wrong on the above with the R-44, but I've asked the question once or twice now and none of the R-44 owners have been able to tell me the new design is any different than the old. 

[Ozpeter]

Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like.

I've just done a quick test of the R-44 TRS input (which would appear to be the same as the mic input but the gain control allows line level input) and it measures essentially flat from 20,000kHz down to 60kHz.  There's then a 0.75dB lift to 40Hz followed by a smooth rolloff with the -3dB point at 30 Hz.

Now I admit that there's a source of inaccuracy in my test procedure - which involved copying a gliding tone file (generated by Adobe Audition, which is pretty accurate) onto an SD card, and then playing that file from the line out of a Zoom H2 into the line in of the R-44.  So the measurement is actually the combination of the H2 output and the R-44 input.   Which goes to show the excellence of modern audio electronics these days.  I doubt whether you'd be able to hear any colouration from the R-44 inputs.

[F0CKER]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

I can't confirm one way or the other, but the R-44 just came earlier this year, so 16 and 32 bit cards were definitely available.  The 8gb limitation, if true, was something that I considered a problem with the R-44.  FWIW, I can't remember if it was the website or the instruction manual says the limitation is 8gb.  If you're recording 4 channels at 24/96, if my math is correct, I'm pretty sure that's only 2 hours of recording.

You earlier said you didn't care about the preamps on the R-44.  You should.  You do realize that on the edirol products I'm pretty sure there's no way to record in a Line In mode, unless that's a new feature on the R-44.  I downloaded the manual and didn't see anywhere in the manual that indicated that it is there.  In the very short time that I owned an R-4, I discovered this fact too late (after I'd already purchased the recorder).  Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like. 

I hope I'm wrong on the above with the R-44, but I've asked the question once or twice now and none of the R-44 owners have been able to tell me the new design is any different than the old. 

Thanks Tonedeaf, this is helpful.  I'll look into it more today.  w/o line in, I'll probably get a mod to the unit then...I'll give Doug Oade a call as I've always had an ear for his mods and products.  I'll follow up with Edirol as well...

+T

[stevetoney]

Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like.

I've just done a quick test of the R-44 TRS input (which would appear to be the same as the mic input but the gain control allows line level input) and it measures essentially flat from 20,000kHz down to 60kHz.  There's then a 0.75dB lift to 40Hz followed by a smooth rolloff with the -3dB point at 30 Hz.

Now I admit that there's a source of inaccuracy in my test procedure - which involved copying a gliding tone file (generated by Adobe Audition, which is pretty accurate) onto an SD card, and then playing that file from the line out of a Zoom H2 into the line in of the R-44.  So the measurement is actually the combination of the H2 output and the R-44 input.   Which goes to show the excellence of modern audio electronics these days.  I doubt whether you'd be able to hear any colouration from the R-44 inputs.

That's good info, but it probably isn't enough to convince me. 

What I'd really like to know though is, if I run say a V3 in front of an R-44, is my resulting sound gonna be V3 or is it gonna sound like the R-44?  My experience with the R-4 is that, it doesn't matter what I put in front, it's still gonna sound like the R-4. 

I guess all I'm saying then is, I trust your data, but am not convinced that it translates into what I'd love to hear from the R-44 users...which is that the V3 sound is still retained when using the R-44.  Based on my own past experiences, I really have my doubts if that will be the case.

If there was a Line In circuit that let me use the recorder simply as a bitbucket, then I could still use any outboard rig I wanted without the R-44 influencing the sound at all.

[Ozpeter]

Apparently the R-44 has the same input circuitry as the R-4 Pro rather than the R-4, which seems to have a reputation for being noisier.  In case you've not seen the specs, then these are the relevant ones for input -

● Analog Input
Ch 1 - 4: XLR/TRS Combo type
XLR type (phantom powered)
TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)
Stereo Built-in Microphones

● Input Impedance
XLR: 4k ohms or greater (balanced)
TRS: 6k ohms or greater (balanced)

● Nominal Input Level
11 steps:+4,-2-,8,-14,-20,-26,-32,-38,-44,-50,-56
(Input Level Knob: Center)
Input Level Knob: negative infinity to +8 dBu

● Maximum Input
+24 dBu (Input Sens Knob: +4dBu)

● Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise
Line output: 0.02% (Input Sens: +4dBu)

● Noise Level
Line Output: -10dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Center)

● Residual Noise Level
Line Output: -103 dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Minimum)

● Frequency Response
20Hz - 40kHz (0/-3 dB)

● Dynamic Range
AD: 100 dB
DA: 104 dB

● Phantom Power
48V +/- 4V
8mA per 1 channel (20mA or less for all channels)

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders?  It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

[stevetoney]

Hi Ozpeter.  I'm not sure we're communicating well with each other.  I think maybe I'm speaking oranges and you're speaking apples.  I'll try to add some clarification to my own earlier responses though.

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

What you say in you first sentence makes perfect sense, _IF_ the only goal is low noise.  Clearly, having a string of components in front of the R-44 won't make for a lower noise setup. 

However, what I was referring to earlier though is that I like the sound of my external preamps because they provide a specific preferred overall sound flavor...whether thats described as transparency, warmth, depth, clarity, soundstage or a combination of all of these.  If the R-4/R-4Pro/R-44 enabled Line In bypassing of the R-4/R4Pro/R-44 preamps the same as, say the HD-P2 does and many other 2 channel recorders do, then that would be a valuable feature for me because I could retain the preamp flavour that I desire...which isn't a noise concern for me.

Regarding the last sentence above, I'm not sure why you think nobody would run a V3 in front of an R-44.  There are numerous sources on the archive where an external preamp is run upstream of the R-4.  It's just that in my personal opinion, the sound output from the R-4 preamps end up dominating...such that for example you no longer have a V3 sounding recording if it's upstream of the R-4.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders? 

For sure.  I think most of the popular recorders (PMD-671, HD-P2, FR2, SD7XX, etc) have a parallel line-in routing scheme, although some of the lower priced models don't (FR2LE).  On my HD-P2, Line In is accomplished via RCAs and two switches on the top of the recorder, one for each channel. 

It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

True, but it depends totally on the goal of your setup.  Many people will relish the fact that the R-44 sounds good and therefore, they can sell off their outboard preamps and put some extra cash in their pockets...or reduce the size of their rig. 

That's not necessarily my goal...my first priority is my sound.  My main interest in the R-44 is 4 channels so I don't want the on-board preamps to be limiting because I like the sound of my outboard preamps.  I went through a TON of rigs to find the sound that I finally like, so don't want to go away from that now.  BUT, I'd also like a 4 channel recorder and can't afford a SD744.