Topic: My HD-P2 is Rusting!

[stevetoney]

You're getting somewhere.  Again, while the unit might be the problem I'm not sure it would be completely obvious how or where the problem might be.  Electricity can be a funky thing and like was stated earlier it can only take a sliver or even a nick on the circuit board to goof things up.  Ya know how sometimes you've touched something that wasn't well grounded and because your body might be grounded better than the component, you might get a small shiver of an electrical shock?  That might be all that's happening here, only it could be even smaller and less obvious than a loose wire. 

I'm not sure what to recommend at this point...I think I might be inclined to just start taking it apart a little at a time (only as much as you feel comfortable) and see what you find...something might jump out at you.  One thing I'd bet you can count on is that Tascam probably isn't gonna let you make any type of warranty claim...nor will they probably acknowledge that this is something wrong with the unit since it's so easy to just sluff it off as something else such as what has been discussed in this thread. 

Good luck!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I disagree on taking it apart or spending any more time f'ing with it.

Warranty period means nothing...  you have some kind of weird lemon.  You can't fix this.  You can't sell it. As the manufacturer, they can replace it at very little cost... The $300 you have already spent is too much.   I don't know if some part of the unit or bag has high sulfur content, or chorline, or whatever...  I would include the bag when you send it in.  It wouldn't hurt to look around the area where you store it, but I don't think that is it given what you have observed with the snaps.

So I wojuld talk nicely with Tascam.. I would not spend more than a little time with the first line help people.  Escalate it to a supervisor.  Be prepared to take it to the CEO of the company.  Explain that you are in a very difficult situation and don't know what to do, that you have spent $300 getting these components replaced after they initially rejected warranty coverage.  Really, at this point, only tascam can make this right.  It really won't cost them much (at all) to give you a re-man/demo unit.  You're not blaming them per-se, you just don't know what is happening and don't know where else to turn...  You'd like to be able to post a happy resolution to this story, not a never ending internet thread asking random people what you can do to fix your tascam because tascam won't help, etc.  Don't let the first or second or third line people discourage you.

It will probably take them a long while to sort this out, so they should be happy to give you a loaner (like I am certain sound devices would)..

I would be concerned that the internal contacts of the connectors may be corroding and may cause corrosion on any connector inserted.

[mattmiller]

I would be concerned that the internal contacts of the connectors may be corroding and may cause corrosion on any connector inserted.

I was just going to ask about this -- am I possibly risking damage to anything that I plug into the unit?

And I just found the receipt from when I had the parts replaced.  It was only $250.  $100 for the parts (which took 4 months to get from Tascam -- as I recall, of all things, it was the screws that were on backorder) and $150 for labor.

I actually never called them about it before.  I sent an e-mail and either didn't get a response or didn't get a good response.  And then someone else earlier in this thread who noticed the same problem posted that they had just called them and were told that they had never heard of the problem before and there was nothing they could do since it was out of warranty.  So I didn't bother calling at the time, and instead just started looking for a repair facility.  I'm definitely going to give them a call now and try to appeal to their humanity.  I think I have a good enough story to convince them that something is wrong with the unit, and must have been wrong with it from the day I received it.  At least, I think they'll know that something was/is probably wrong with it, but we'll see how willing they are to admit to it.

What's sad is that I'm not even sure how much of my time this is worth.  With the 680 now on the market, it seems a lot of HD-P2s could be showing up for sale at very good prices, and I could probably just buy a new (used) one and be better off in the end.

[sunset]

Matt,
   I see you took the connections  out of the unit(from the pictures),I'd love to see what the inside looks like.I would  do what  Tonedeaf suggested,open up the unit.Maybe you've opened it already?If not flip the unit over,they're 9 screws take all out  except the one closet to the faceplate and gently remove the backcover.Does the circuit board have oxidization?I'd love to see a picture!Probably is just as bad but maybe not,so check it out.If it is, Freelunch might be right and fight this even though the warranty is expired,might be your only choice.Maybe its time to upgrade... if you do don't forget to Deoxit periodically and don't keep batteries in devices when not in use.Good luck!
 

[mattmiller]

I see you took the connections  out of the unit(from the pictures),I'd love to see what the inside looks like.

Those parts that are pictured are the ones that I had replaced last year when they started to rust the first time.  I pulled them out of the box that the repair facility returned them to me in to see if they had gotten any worse over the last year, because they're stored in the same room that the HD-P2 is.  They look the same as when I had them replaced, while all the new parts in the HD-P2 have started to rust.  I think this is strong evidence that it has nothing to do with the environment.

I expressed the same concerns to the repair facility last year about the internal components, and they indicated that everything on the inside looked fine.  But at that time, the battery compartment looked fine, and the screws on the bottom of the unit looked fine (so neither of these were replaced), and now they're rusting too, as pictured above.

I'll see if I can get the back panel off to take a look at it.  I'm generally comfortable taking things apart, as I do computer and laptop repair (but no soldering).  But for laptops, there's usually a service manual available online that tells me which screws need removed and, more importantly, how much force some parts require to remove.  I haven't been able to find a service manual for the HD-P2, so I'm not going to be nearly as aggressive in trying to open it up.  If the panel comes off easily, I'll post a picture.

[mattmiller]

That was easier than I expected.  Unfortunately, more rust inside, at least on one of the screws.  But I imagine that the white stuff on the board itself is problematic as well.

[jackmf]

This is not a unique problem to your deck Matt, I posted about it in the Team HDP2 thread in 2007. Several others from diverse locations have also experienced it. At the time, Tascam advised cleaning with anti-oxidation stuff and reported that the material that was oxidzing was in fact chrome. To date, the oxidation has had no noticable effect other than cosmetic and I've had the thing for like 5 years. I would say this is clearly a case of the manufacturer using a poorly chosen or sourced material.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

This is not a unique problem to your deck Matt, I posted about it in the Team HDP2 thread in 2007. Several others from diverse locations have also experienced it. At the time, Tascam advised cleaning with anti-oxidation stuff and reported that the material that was oxidzing was in fact chrome.

Good to hear you haven't had any sonic issues.  However, they might be subtle when they start. Now everything points to defective manufacturing.. Maybe problems as a result of their transition to lead free solder.  Also, someone left flux on the board.. it looks like from when they replaced the components.  That's sloppy.

Since this corroded the snaps on the bag, I think there is a very real risk it could corrode other gear.

[JackoRoses]

I've had my P2 since I don't know 07 at least and
I do not see anything like this at all on it.
I've recorded in storms short of a tropical storm. Even had a "river"
form under my gear bag one time. Found a 4x4 to sit the bag on and watched from a distance
as the river rose around my bag 
Everything looks about as good as the day I opened the box up and took it out..
I only use lithium batteries (dvd) on mine.
Anyway just thought I'd chime in on this since I've had mine for a while
now and when I seen this I had to go check.

[KenH]

I hope the manufacturer didn't use the same stuff that's in chinese drywall for parts of the P2, but I bet it's a similar root cause...   My P2 has some minor discoloration on the XLR-ins and on the battery springs too.

[guysonic]

CAIG LABS makes several products, DeoxIT good for power connections like battery connectors, and DeoxIT-Gold best for protecting already cleaned audio/video signal and low power connections.  And these formulated in various strengths. 

I've used both, but mostly clean everything first with +91% pure isopropyl alcohol then apply a concentrated version of the Gold to the contacts.  Protects against everything, even mouse pee that will corrode every type of metal! 

With every deck, connector made, and computer I get into my shop, I clean and ProGold ALL contacts.  This protection acts like 'teflon' resisting salts and other nasty stuff for up to several years of active use, or likely forever if connectors are not unmated like inside a computer.

I used to carry and sell some of these, but ended up with no real interest, but happy to use up my CAIG stock for in-house purposes.


You can find retailers, or maybe order direct from the company site at: http://store.caig.com/

[runonce]

I hope the manufacturer didn't use the same stuff that's in chinese drywall for parts of the P2, but I bet it's a similar root cause...   My P2 has some minor discoloration on the XLR-ins and on the battery springs too.

Right about the time those units came out - US scrap metal prices went through the roof - it was like a redneck goldrush out in the sticks...9-12 bucks a hundred for shredder steel.
I wonder if that put a lot of "dirty" metal into the supply chain...

[stevetoney]

In reviewing this thread, what hasn't been consistently discussed or determined is whether or not leaving batteries in the unit after the show has an impact on the rusting phenomenon.  Do those that haven't experienced the problem use batteries and/or have they ever left them in for extended times?  Since the simple presence of humidity has been ruled out, I'm betting that there's a small electrical current being induced by the batteries which is the motive force for the corrosion.  Remove your batteries after the show, as I'm sure the manufacturer recommends, and that may resolve your problem.

[mattmiller]

I used to leave them in occasionally, but not consistently, and I stopped doing that long ago.  I think shortly after I noticed the first signs of rust, and before the parts had rusted badly enough to require replacement.  They've certainly never been left in the unit for the past year, during which time all of the new replacement parts have started to rust again.

I called Tascam's service department last night and managed to get their service manager (Jim) on the phone.  He was very nice and seemed genuinely curious about what could possibly be happening, but of course always directed the conversation back to what I could possibly be doing to cause it.  He indicated that, in southern California, they see a lot of these with the XLRs rusting due to the proximity to the ocean, but he was surprised to hear that EVERYTHING was rusting.  I described the observation with the metal snaps on the carrying case rusting only where in contact with the metal on the unit, and he acknowledged that it was strange.  When I brought up the galvanic corrosion theory, he seemed to think that not all of the required elements were in place for that to occur ("there's not a complete circuit").  Although he admitted that he's not a chemist nor a physicist and was only recalling what he had learned in high school.  Which was quite a while ago, since he said he's been in Tascam's service department for 20 years.  Also, he thought the rusted screws on the bottom of the unit couldn't be related to this because they're supposedly not in contact with any metal (just plastic).  In the end, he took my name and number and said he was going to talk to the engineers and maybe even "call Japan" to see if they have ever observed this.  Since he's going on vacation next week, he said he'd try to get back to me within a couple of days.  There was no mention of offering to replace the unit if it's determined that there might have been a problem with it from the start.  But early in the conversation, when I mentioned having already paid $250 to replace all of the inputs, he said they'd be happy to do the replacements in the future for a much better price.  Ummm....no thanks.  That was early in the conversation, though, and by the end I think he was feeling a little sorry for the situation. 

[runonce]

The biggest problem with the rust would seem to be the re-sale value...(presuming the deck continues to function normally)

Even if the rust is "normal and to be expected" - still would make it a hard sell on some folks.