Topic: Sony PCM-M10 vs Edirol R-09HR

[chrise]

Yep - when "hold" is set, pressing any button fires up the back light.  And you have to wait about 3 seconds whilst the display says "HOLD".

[adrianf74]

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for some good and valuable information in this thread.  I've still got the original R09 which I bought in February 2008.  I've used it to record about 15, about five or six more off the radio, and as a bit-bucket doing transfers for about 50 shows from MiniDisc at 24/48. 

Because of this thread, I'm now looking to buy one.   I like the idea of a "smaller" recorder when outdoors and the idea of 24/96 is quite nice since I'm still stuck at 24/48 -- not that I'm going to likely notice a difference.

[M]

fwiw, the r09 can do 96kHz

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127618.msg1690428#msg1690428

[adrianf74]

fwiw, the r09 can do 96kHz

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127618.msg1690428#msg1690428

Thanks for the head's up.  I didn't even know this (then again, I'm not using a pre-amp yet so using a battery box alone at 24/96 would be less than ideal based on the noise floor of the device).  I'm wondering if anybody's ever done test - such as GuySonic - to confirm any benefit.

[jsfrank]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

[adrianf74]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

Was thinking that until I learned that I can "hack" my R09 (original model) to get it to do 24/96. At that point, might be better to just keep the thing 'til it dies (and it's not even close right now). 

[willndmb]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

no but runs for like 25hrs on 2 aa

[relentlesscactus]

Thanks fmaderjr & chrise for the responses!   What a great forum this is . . .

Since everyone seems helpful, though I am drifting offtopic, I had another question as I am thinking about the Sony:

• Q:  I use a small portable batt-op pre-amp with small, high quality, directional mics and an old fading MicroTrack.  I was sent a different pre-amp from Sound Professionals for a Tascam that I don't like and am sending back.  With the Sony, would I need an external pre-amp for good sound with the mic-in? 

I am asking because the owner's manual says "When a plug in power type microphone is connected, power is automatically supplied to the microphone from the PCM recorder," and there is a thread elsewhere about how so-and-so says he no longer needs to use an external mic pre-amp now that he uses the PCM-M10.  So are these "plug in power type mics", or am I unclear on the concept?  If this is the pre-amp I need internal on the PCM, are these high-quality pre-amps to rival the exterior box supplied by Sound Professionals?

Thank you in advance for the answers!

--relentlesscactus

[Cheesecadet]

Run through your pre and "Line In" into the M10...

[fmaderjr]

• Q:  I use a small portable batt-op pre-amp with small, high quality, directional mics and an old fading MicroTrack.  I was sent a different pre-amp from Sound Professionals for a Tascam that I don't like and am sending back.  With the Sony, would I need an external pre-amp for good sound with the mic-in? 
--relentlesscactus

You usually don't want to use a preamp into mic in (though Chris Church says you can sometimes do it with his pramps if what you are recording is very quiet and you turn off the recorder's plug in power). If you have a good preamp, I would usually follow cheesecadet's recommendation of going preamp into line in.

If you want to go mic in, even though the M10's mic in  provides plug in power, its only a bit over 3 volts I think, as opposed to the 9 volts provided by most battery boxes. For many mics you will need to use a battery box between the mics and the mic in if you want optimal performance from the mics. Even if they seem to work fine without the box, they may distort when the signal gets too loud. CA-14's and DPA 4060's definitely need a box. Illconditioned has reported good results with a number of mics without a box, including CA-11's. So whether you can go mic in without at least a battery box ddepends on your mics.

I generally use a battery box in all cases when not using a preamp just to be safe (an exception would be Sonic Studios DSM mics, which are not designed to be powered by 9 volts, and which can be powered perfectly the the M10's plug in power). A small battery box doesn't take up much room.

[relentlesscactus]

I mis-spoke.  I should have said battery box rather than pre-amp, regarding use with Sony PCM-M10.

So what is the best combination of using/not using battery box; line-in, mic-in; mic power on/off; and gain low/high; in loud and soft situations?

I have a Sound Professionals 12V mini mic power box and CMC-4 directional mics.

Thanks for the advice (so I screw up fewer recordings when I get my new recorder),

--relentlesscactus

[fmaderjr]

Regarding mic power on and off, always turn it off when going mic in with a battery box and on if going mic in without a box. If going line in, the setting is irrelevant.

Your mics are AT-853's. I believe illconditioned has reported good results going mic in with these without a battery box. You can try it both ways and see what you like best. I myself would use the box to be safe, but he is more knowledgeable than I am. However if you did not get the low sensitivity mod, your mics may distort in very loud situations regardless of whether you go mic in (with or without the box) or line in with the box. Everyone agrees you need the mod on these mics for high sound pressure situations.

If going mic in, always set the recorder to low gain for amplified music and high gain for ambient recordings (the built in mics are quite good for this). For acoustic, high gain is probably fine, but I have used low gain to be safe. Someone who has used high gain on acoustic can chime in here. The gain setting is irrelevant if going line in, but you must always use the battery box when going line in or the mics will not receive any power.

[relentlesscactus]

fmaderjr--

Thank you for the informative reply (below).  I received my Sony PCM-M10 yesterday.  So far, I am mightily impressed.  I have a couple of question/clarifications:

Regarding mic power on and off, always turn it off when going mic in with a battery box and on if going mic in without a box. If going line in, the setting is irrelevant.

I take it 'line in' would be for high volume situations?  What happens if you do turn on the mic power along with a battery box?

Your mics are AT-853's. I believe illconditioned has reported good results going mic in with these without a battery box. You can try it both ways and see what you like best. I myself would use the box to be safe, but he is more knowledgeable than I am. However if you did not get the low sensitivity mod, your mics may distort in very loud situations regardless of whether you go mic in (with or without the box) or line in with the box. Everyone agrees you need the mod on these mics for high sound pressure situations.

You mention 'the low sensitivity mod' or 'the mod' for high sound pressure situations.  Could you explain what this 'mod' is?  Where you can get it?  I've used these mics for years with my Microtrak.  The only problems I had were situations with a super-deep sub-woofer that distorted the sound, sometimes even when the peaks were not reached. 

I take it mic in w/o the batter box would be with the mic power then turned on, correct?

If going mic in, always set the recorder to low gain for amplified music and high gain for ambient recordings (the built in mics are quite good for this). For acoustic, high gain is probably fine, but I have used low gain to be safe. Someone who has used high gain on acoustic can chime in here. The gain setting is irrelevant if going line in, but you must always use the battery box when going line in or the mics will not receive any power.

So it is good to use line in for very loud music?

I have my first concert to record Friday, and trying to get as much knowledge as possible so I don't F it up.

One more question.  One person told me to use the limiter function.  That way if it goes over the limit, it gently adjusts the peak to the top level rather than distorts.  The Microtrak rarely distorted on peaks unless super loud.  It sounds like the Sony may be much more accurate, but would therefore distort without the limiter if say a loud snare hit came through unexpectedly.  Do you recommend the limiter?

Thanks in advance,

--relentlesscactus

[fmaderjr]

renlentlesscactus-

Line in is for high volume situations or can be used if you are using an external preamp to provide most of the gain. With the M10 some people have reported that the mic in will also work in high volume situations, but I haven't tried it myself. Others can chime in here.

I can't tell you what happens if you use a battery box mic in with the recorder's plug in power on. Most likely it will still sound OK, but it could cause problems and there is no way it will improve the sound, so don't do it on purpose. If you do it by accident it is likely the recording will still sound fine.

The M10's limiter does not work gently (as is the case with almost all limiters). If you use it, use it only as a safety valve and still set your levels conservatively so the limiter isn't likely to kick in.

The 853 low sensitivity mod was devised by Chris Church to keep the mics themselves from overloading in high volume situations, even if the recorder itself doesn't. The mics can then take very high SPL's, but are about 10-11 db less sensitive (need more gain when recording quieter stuff). Either Chris Church or Sound Professionals can do the mod for you. Also a few of the board members here can do it-one may possibly speak up.



 

[relentlesscactus]

fmaderjr--

I can't tell you what happens if you use a battery box mic in with the recorder's plug in power on. Most likely it will still sound OK, but it could cause problems and there is no way it will improve the sound, so don't do it on purpose. If you do it by accident it is likely the recording will still sound fine.

I am wondering what the difference is between the mic in and line in if the power is off on the mic in . . . if it can be explained simply . . . not important if it's not simple.

The M10's limiter does not work gently (as is the case with almost all limiters). If you use it, use it only as a safety valve and still set your levels conservatively so the limiter isn't likely to kick in.

I guess the main question then is which is less gentle . . . peak distortion without a limiter, or the "non-gentle effect" of a limiter?  Obviously well-set levels are the key, but I'm getting used to a new machine and I hate ruining recordings!  I listen to pretty weird music sometimes, and it could be an acoustic guitar followed by a sonic snare concussion and back again.  With the Microtrack, you could peak pretty severe and it usually sounded OK, I get the idea the Sony is not so forgiving (the Micro also usually had pretty low levels when they should have been normal).


The 853 low sensitivity mod was devised by Chris Church to keep the mics themselves from overloading in high volume situations, even if the recorder itself doesn't. The mics can then take very high SPL's, but are about 10-11 db less sensitive (need more gain when recording quieter stuff). Either Chris Church or Sound Professionals can do the mod for you. Also a few of the board members here can do it-one may possibly speak up.

Wow, I'm still totally interested and totally clueless.  Is "mod" MODual as in a physical device you plug the mics into, or is it a MODification that has to be done TO the mics?  I know Sound Profs, not familiar with Mr. Church -- what is the approx cost of either the modification or module?

Thanks so much for all your help!

--Alan

PS.  I recorded an mp3 on the Sony for 24 hours and the batt marker only went down to two of five marks.  That battery life is real!