Topic: Nagra BB+

[Karma]

HI All,
I'm new here. It looks like a good forum. I found it when Googling for information on the Nagra BB+. I found very little. I noticed there seems to be a small Nagra contingent on this forum. So, I thought this would be a good place to post my question. On most other recording forums there is very little Nagra activity.

Since a search here came up with nothing for the BB+, I thought I would ask the Nagra guru's if they know anything about this machine (also the BB which is very similar). I have an opportunity to buy a demo machine at a decent price; not a great price but Nagra's never seem to be available at great prices. From the downloaded manual, the specs and features look attractive. And it's a Nagra which means a lot to me. I am an audiophile so my expectations of sound quality is high. I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.

I will be using it for a broad range of recording activities including field recording of natural sounds and music groups when I can. I plan on recording lots of trains and thunderstorms. Sorry, that's just one of my quirks.

This would be my first digital recorder. I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines and that is a factor for me.

Also, I understand there is a free audio editor available but I have misplaced the name. Can you help with this?

Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks, Sparky

[John Willett]

The Nagra BB and BB+ are excellent little machines.

They were discontinued when the LB came out (the LB replacing the BB).

Info on the BB+ is HERE.



It only had a 20-bit converter and sample frequencies only up to 48kHz - it would not do 24/96.

BUT - being a Nagra, the sound quality would have been better than most small 24/96 machines around at the time.

Depending on the price - I would check out the new SD machine they will show at NAB, and also the new Nagra VI quality pre-amp with integrated recorder (should be cheaper than the LB I understand) that they should also be showing at NAB.

From what you say you are going to do, I would strongly recommend you look at the new recorder.  This is the one with the Nagra VI quality mic. pre-amps. with built-in recorder.  I have been told they will be showing it at NAB next month and I hope it will be available in May.  I understand it will be cheaper than the LB, although the quality of the mic. pre-amps will be better (mainly because it will not have all the editing facilities that the LB has).  I already have my name down for one of these as it will increase my Nagra VI to 6 mic. inputs (all the same quality) and, with the built-in recorder option, will enable me to take it out on its own when I only need a small stereo machine (of the same quality, of course). 

I hope this helps.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I find it very amusing, and rather sad, that Nagra has chosen to name their new recorder "SD" - short for Sound Devices.  There can be no doubt they thought about the potential for confusion, but decided to go with it.

They've surely lost a great deal of business to "SD" in recent years.

[John Willett]

I find it very amusing, and rather sad, that Nagra has chosen to name their new recorder "SD" - short for Sound Devices.  There can be no doubt they thought about the potential for confusion, but decided to go with it.

They've surely lost a great deal of business to "SD" in recent years.

I don't even think they thought about the Sound Devices connotation.

I honestly can't see any confusion at all - who will confuse "Nagra SD" with Sound Devices?

Actually Nagra and Sound Devices seem to have each carved out separate niches for each other and, in many ways, don't really compete with each other.  Once you have decided what you are doing, the choice is normally pretty clear.

[Karma]

The Nagra BB and BB+ are excellent little machines.

They were discontinued when the LB came out (the LB replacing the BB).

Info on the BB+ is HERE.



It only had a 20-bit converter and sample frequencies only up to 48kHz - it would not do 24/96.

BUT - being a Nagra, the sound quality would have been better than most small 24/96 machines around at the time.

Depending on the price - I would check out the new SD machine they will show at NAB, and also the new Nagra VI quality pre-amp with integrated recorder (should be cheaper than the LB I understand) that they should also be showing at NAB.

From what you say you are going to do, I would strongly recommend you look at the new recorder.  This is the one with the Nagra VI quality mic. pre-amps. with built-in recorder.  I have been told they will be showing it at NAB next month and I hope it will be available in May.  I understand it will be cheaper than the LB, although the quality of the mic. pre-amps will be better (mainly because it will not have all the editing facilities that the LB has).  I already have my name down for one of these as it will increase my Nagra VI to 6 mic. inputs (all the same quality) and, with the built-in recorder option, will enable me to take it out on its own when I only need a small stereo machine (of the same quality, of course). 

I hope this helps.

HI John,
Well, it helps a little. Did you miss the part where I specified that I must be able to afford the machine? I looked at the LB and concluded that I could not justify the price for a hobby machine. I'm sure that any new Nagra will fall into the same catagory-too expensive. Taking that into consideration, does your suggestion change?

I must ask the following:

1. Have you actually heard recordings made on the BB+ on a really good hi fi system? What did you think?
2. Have you owned a BB+?
3. Have you made recordings on the BB+? IOW, have you actually used the machine?
4. In what way do you expect the new machine to be better?

I'm sorry to push the point but I am so tired of generalities that are thrown around on the internet. If you want to really help me, be specific. I need you to be specific. Spec sheets are not very inportant to me. Real world performance is very important. Information I received from a French compatriot concerning recordings made on the BB+ indicated the sound was excellent; some of the best he has heard. And he knows what is good. So do I.

Thanks, Sparky

[John Willett]

The Nagra BB and BB+ are excellent little machines.

They were discontinued when the LB came out (the LB replacing the BB).

Info on the BB+ is HERE.



It only had a 20-bit converter and sample frequencies only up to 48kHz - it would not do 24/96.

BUT - being a Nagra, the sound quality would have been better than most small 24/96 machines around at the time.

Depending on the price - I would check out the new SD machine they will show at NAB, and also the new Nagra VI quality pre-amp with integrated recorder (should be cheaper than the LB I understand) that they should also be showing at NAB.

From what you say you are going to do, I would strongly recommend you look at the new recorder.  This is the one with the Nagra VI quality mic. pre-amps. with built-in recorder.  I have been told they will be showing it at NAB next month and I hope it will be available in May.  I understand it will be cheaper than the LB, although the quality of the mic. pre-amps will be better (mainly because it will not have all the editing facilities that the LB has).  I already have my name down for one of these as it will increase my Nagra VI to 6 mic. inputs (all the same quality) and, with the built-in recorder option, will enable me to take it out on its own when I only need a small stereo machine (of the same quality, of course). 

I hope this helps.

HI John,
Well, it helps a little. Did you miss the part where I specified that I must be able to afford the machine? I looked at the LB and concluded that I could not justify the price for a hobby machine. I'm sure that any new Nagra will fall into the same catagory-too expensive. Taking that into consideration, does your suggestion change?

I must ask the following:

1. Have you actually heard recordings made on the BB+ on a really good hi fi system? What did you think?
2. Have you owned a BB+?
3. Have you made recordings on the BB+? IOW, have you actually used the machine?
4. In what way do you expect the new machine to be better?

I'm sorry to push the point but I am so tired of generalities that are thrown around on the internet. If you want to really help me, be specific. I need you to be specific. Spec sheets are not very inportant to me. Real world performance is very important. Information I received from a French compatriot concerning recordings made on the BB+ indicated the sound was excellent; some of the best he has heard. And he knows what is good. So do I.

Thanks, Sparky

You said very clearly that there was not much discount off the BB - the LB was cheaper than the BB - the new recorder is better and cheaper than the LB (20 - 25% I think), so I considered that the new machine would come close what you would get the BB for.  A reasonable assumption I think.

No, I have not owned the BB - I looked at it closely and decided to pay the extra for the Nagra VI as I wanted a 24/96 recorder for location classical music recording.

I have also used the LB as a back-up machine and found it excellent (but that, too, is 24/96).

I posted the BB link because you said you could not find any information on it.

The new machine will be better because it uses the same top quality mic. pre-amps as the Nagra VI coupled with a 24/96 flash recorder.  The BB is an earlier machine with very good mic. pres (but not as good as the Nagra VI) and it's a 20/48 recorder, rather than a 24/96.

The BB was very good, the new one will be better and I think, from what you said, that the price would be comparable.

Oh - the free audio editing software is Audacity.

Just trying to help...

[Karma]

HI John,
I'm guilty of the generalities I accused you of. I was reluctant to mention the price for fear of violating forum rules. But I will take the chance since it has become a discussion point. The price I was offered from Nagra USA is $1800 for the recorder, a PCMCIA flash card adaptor, a 1 gig Sandisk flash card, a strap, all software, the AA cell power pack and an AC mains wall wart. The unit is a demo example. This all adds up to a $3000 value or so I have been told. I've been assured that the machine is perfect.

A knowledgeable person at Nagra USA, who will remain unnamed to protect the innocent, made a very strong argument that the BB+ is a better machine than the LB. Yes, the sound quality as well as some features. What can I say? Who has the most experience with these machines?

Does this change anything from your point of view?

Thanks for the Audacity name. That's the one I was thinking of.

Thanks, Sparky

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks for the info John, very helpful. I am def considering the new Nagra w/ the flash recorder built in

[andromedanwarmachine]

well this is all fascinating!

I have never heard of the BB, let alone seen a picture of one! (and I do a daily search of the internet for 2nd hand Nagra gear)

Amazing to think that Nagra US would sell a unit ex-demo...

Hmmm. I think I'll keep saving for my LB- although it's a long road to climb- and you never see ANY second hand. I wonder how many users for the LB there are out there...? (still waiting for your SOS article, John!)

keep up the good work Karma- there aren't enough people recording thunderstorms!

JimP

[John Willett]

HI John,
I'm guilty of the generalities I accused you of. I was reluctant to mention the price for fear of violating forum rules. But I will take the chance since it has become a discussion point. The price I was offered from Nagra USA is $1800 for the recorder, a PCMCIA flash card adaptor, a 1 gig Sandisk flash card, a strap, all software, the AA cell power pack and an AC mains wall wart. The unit is a demo example. This all adds up to a $3000 value or so I have been told. I've been assured that the machine is perfect.

A knowledgeable person at Nagra USA, who will remain unnamed to protect the innocent, made a very strong argument that the BB+ is a better machine than the LB. Yes, the sound quality as well as some features. What can I say? Who has the most experience with these machines?

Does this change anything from your point of view?

Thanks for the Audacity name. That's the one I was thinking of.

Thanks, Sparky

PM sent - I would say the new machine will be in the ball-park you want.

The comments from Nagra USA may be down to the fact there there were some issues with early versions of the LB - all corrected now.

[andromedanwarmachine]

Hey John,

this is an interesting statement: "Once you have decided what you are doing, the choice is normally pretty clear."

what areas do you think play to the strengths of each machine...?

JimP

[John Willett]

Hey John,

this is an interesting statement: "Once you have decided what you are doing, the choice is normally pretty clear."

what areas do you think play to the strengths of each machine...?

OK ............................

Really the differences between the 788T and the Nagra VI.

For pure audio quality I would say that the Nagra is the better (which is why it is being used by quite a few classical music location recordists), it can run for 12-15 hours on the high capacity battery pack and runs cool.  It is not heavy, but a bit large for over-the -shoulder stuff and probably better suited to a trolly or table-top use (which is how I use mine).

The 788T is about half the size, not quite as good audio-wise (but still better than just about anything else), but runs hot.  It is much better suited to over-the -shoulder stuff (but you need to leave air-space in the "handbag" - uniquely it will also take AES42 mics (I need the Neumann DMI-2P do do this with the Nagra).  The Nagra VI IMHO has the better ergonomics and the menu structure is certainly much better.

Both machines average out at about the same price, I think - The Nagra is cheaper in the UK and the SD is cheaper in the USA - so they are probably the same on average.  You get 8 mic. pre-amps with the SD and only 4 with the Nagra but at a higher spec. - the differences are not large, though.  The Menu structure is more awkward, though you can set short-cuts and the new iPhone app may get around a lot of this.

So, if you want the ultimate quality in music recording, the Nagra comes out top - if you are doing location recording for broadcast the SD comes out top.

Anyway, this is my take on it.

I like both machines.

[sunjan]

I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.

I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...

I think you're being a bit harsh by concluding that all recorders you've found below $1800 are "not professional", and therefore inferior to the BB+.
I understand that street price for the BB+ is $2400, so you've been offered a good bargain:
http://www.pro-sound.com/R/SNAGARES.html

But since you're on a budget, I'd be interested to hear what mics you intend to run with the recorder? It would make little sense spending $1800 on the recorder if you put $500 mics in front of it.

You could easily find an SD 702 in the yard sale for less, not to mention other popular 24bit units here (DR-680, R-44, MR-1000, FR-2, PMD-661 with advanced mods for ambient recording).
That would give you more money to spend on mics, unless you already have stellar gear for all situations mentioned above (nature, trains, music, which all would benefit from different mics).

[andromedanwarmachine]

Thanks for that John...

[Karma]

I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.

I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...

I think you're being a bit harsh by concluding that all recorders you've found below $1800 are "not professional", and therefore inferior to the BB+.
I understand that street price for the BB+ is $2400, so you've been offered a good bargain:
http://www.pro-sound.com/R/SNAGARES.html

But since you're on a budget, I'd be interested to hear what mics you intend to run with the recorder? It would make little sense spending $1800 on the recorder if you put $500 mics in front of it.

You could easily find an SD 702 in the yard sale for less, not to mention other popular 24bit units here (DR-680, R-44, MR-1000, FR-2, PMD-661 with advanced mods for ambient recording).
That would give you more money to spend on mics, unless you already have stellar gear for all situations mentioned above (nature, trains, music, which all would benefit from different mics).

HI Sunjan,
You have a good point. Let's work with facts first. The BB+ in addition to the optional extras price out at $3000. So, the deal is better than you indicated. I can't claim that the sub $1800 machines are not as good or less professional than the BB+. But, the fact is that Nagra has been the pro's choice for decades. True, the competition is tougher in our digital age. But, I'll still go with the company that has the reputation. And I am a true lover of great, professional equipment. Test equipment is a good example. When I had my hi fi repair shop, I had all Tektronix test equipment. I tend to look at most other test equipment as junk. Most of it is junk. Working with Tektronix equipment is a joy in so many ways and makes my efforts better and more efficient. I still have all the equipment in my home shop. My cameras are all Nikon top of the line. Again, a joy. The term "professional" actually means something eventhough the term is used very loosly as a mark of merit. So, the only way to tell is look at what the pro's use. They very often use Nagra (and Nikon and Canon).

While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.

My entry into this activity is a process and it can't happen overnight. There's too much to learn and too much experience to be gained and all this takes time.

Microphones are a tough call. I decided to not spend a fortune on great mic's at the beginning. I bought two AKG C 1000 mic's. I know these are not great mic's. They are good though. They will do as I go through the learning process. And I can afford them. As time goes on I plan to upgrade as necessary. It's a little like hi fi systems, with which I have over 50 years of experience. Most folks can't go out and buy their dream system if they even know what that is and usually they don't. Instead, they must grow into it, trading, buying used, experimenting until they finally learn what they want and can afford it. Mic's are like speakers. You can buy $10,000 speakers and have fine sound. But you can buy $50,000 systems and have great sound. Unless you are rich, you must take the steps in between to reach your goal. I am taking the gradual route. Obtaining a Nagra is a good first step.

Sparky