Topic: Nagra BB+

[sunjan]

Damnit, I just lost several paragraphs somehow.  Out of frustration, my response now will be more brief, and I won't re-type the answer your above question directly...yet.

Hey Brian, you should install Lazarus:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/
Saved my a** so many times when posting here.
Sorry for the thread jack, back on topic...

[ghellquist]

Mics for classical music? Well, that it all I do. Tested most mics, all I recommend here.
And seems like 2 mics, straight to stereo. Recording in the open, not stealth then.
I firmly believe in having two sets, using them dependant on rom a nd instruments. Set one I use cardioids in Ortf. Set two omnis spaced to taste, often aroind half a meter.

For Ortf there is a golden standard ( now remember this can be debated and is all about taste ) the Schoeps Mk4 capsule and most often a Cmc6 head amp. This is combined in the best of worlds in the Mstc64. Easy to set up and always useable. The Sennheisers are not bad either, Mkh40 or Mkh8040. There are others in similar class, still talking money here though. You would probably like the Neumann Km184 as well, although often these will benefit from a bit of taming of the high frequencys. Staples in the studio world so you will probably find them used.

For Omni there are several choices, but I have not tried them all. I like the Microtech Gefell M296, but they are very special. Mkh20 or Mkh8020 are definitely useable. And why not the Neumann Km183.

Gunnar
disclaimer: I am farly confident in using all the mics mentioned and owns or has owned all of them with the exception of the Mkh8040, all in recording classical from chamber music to large Symphony Orchestras, like Beethoven 9 or Holst the planets.

[John Willett]

EVERYONE ALWAYS forgets about MBHO's.

No, I've mentioned MBHO several times.

And Neumann's as well

And I mentioned the Neumann options

[Karma]

HI All,
Thanks for all the information. As I implied before, the microphone issue is a can of worms. I am accumulating and correlating all this data into a spreadsheet which I will post here, maybe today. I want to wait until the information slows down a little so I won't have to do it over again. I have three monitors going to keep it all straight!

Several things are apparent: there is very little agreement simply based upon what you folks are writing. There is quite a lot of agreement on brands. But, models within the brands are all over the place. Plus, many are suggesting models that are not available through retail outlets. Are they discontinued? Maybe. I'm also pricing all the suggestions. For ease, I'm using B&H prices where I can. But not all brands are available from B&H. For those I am Googling for prices. I'm not finished with that part. I realize that there may be better prices than B&H, but usually B&H is pretty competitive. The differences between B&H and other retailers are relatively small. I am only considering new products at the moment.

Of course, price is only one issue. The most important thing is matching the mic to the need. But this can't be strictly determined from a spec sheet. Only experience can do that especially when you throw taste into the equation. Again, this is very much like hi fi.

Another thing is you all have spent a lot of money on your mics. Thus, you are practicing what you preach. This does not surprise me. But, unless you actually still have all the mics you have suggested, you have traded many times. This means you have been on the learning curve for a long time. You have made mistakes and have corrected them. I don't know how you manage your finances, but unless you have a business, this expense is out of your pocket rather than a tax write-off. I hope you do have a business set up because otherwise your recording activity is for rich men. For me, the cost is out of pocket. My activity is a hobby and not a business. Thus, my cost is a straight expense.

I'd like to clear up some things. I'm not on a strict budget based on what I can afford. No, I am on a budget based upon my plan. I could run out today and buy any of the mics suggested here and I am tempted to do that. Sure, it would hurt a little but I could do it. I just don't want to do it. I would like to be able to base my buying decisions on my personal experiences. I will make mistakes but I would like to minimize them. Mistakes is how we learn. We just try not not make the same mistake twice.

I suspected that the microphone hunt would be very difficult. Again, put yourself in my shoes. I have no way of determining the best mic for what I want. I'm sure at the beginning of your recording careers you did not either. I can select certain features which are published but, as mentioned above, this is not a world of facts but taste plus raw performance. And each of us have different tastes. We also have different physical hearing capabilities. And we have different goals. Thus, we select different mics from someone else, and swear by them. That's not realistic for a third party trying choose such as myself. But, it's the best we can do and I do appreciate all of you trying bring me on board. Your information will be extremely valuable to me when the time comes. Try to understand that I have a plan and I know how I learn. It may not be your way. There is no one way.

Sparky

[Brian Skalinder]

Sparky --

You won't achieve agreement from everyone on all recommendations.  There are many reasons we don't and won't all agree on everything.  But there's one quite clear theme: 

• allocate the bulk of the budget to the mics

I still have no idea if you're willing to consider doing so.  If not, and you're dead-set on the Nagra recorder, with a very limited mic budget, the entire discussion is moot.  If so, specifying a budget -- any budget -- will help narrow down the choices.  While I recognize you could buy any of the expensive mics mentioned, it seems clear from your comments you do have a budget in mind.  Surely, there is some amount of money above which you're not comfortable spending as you enter this hobby.

Finally, you're correct many of us have used a variety of mics in order to gain the personal experience required to refine our preferences.  Obviously, the only way to do so is to actually experience the gear first-hand, and that typically means owning or renting mics.  As you rightly say, it's a process.  And it can get expensive.  FWIW, the best way to minimize cost out of pocket is to buy and sell used gear.  There's far less depreciation that way when one changes gear to try something new in search of the ever elusive "perfect" set of gear.

But ultimately, getting back on track, it all comes down to this:  we can only help if you provide information and answer questions.  Again, please re-visit #1-3 and help us understand the answers to those topics, so we may make appropriate recommendations.  Otherwise, you'll continue to receive recommendations spanning anything and everything, and all you'll end up with is a list of all the gear anyone has ever used and/or liked, which will be so long it won't provide much help.

[Karma]

HI Brian,
You seem to be one of the more merciful here. I did not ask for this mic discussion. It was not part of the OP and I did not intend it to be. I only mentioned mics to try to give an overview of where I was. I knew that once the discussion moved to mics it would be a free for all; one I did not want.

If you have read this whole thread, the blood has been let over how I am allocating my resources. At this moment, as I have said, I am not willing to spend a small fortune on mics at the very beginning. I have many other things to learn first. The mics time will come. That's it, story over. I think this discussion is moot. But, I still appreciate the information which will be useful both to me and to others who might reference this thread.

My audio experience is vast. I am 69 years old and have into hi fi since 1954 when I built my first tube amp, a Heath kit. Yes, my ears still work well. Since then audio has been my passion. I have run two different hi end hi fi repair shops for a total of 13 years. I specialized in tape recorders. I have been an audio consultant for several high end hi fi stores advising customers on their hi fi and acoustic problems and purchases. When Stereophile magazine was located in Santa Fe, my locality, I knew, and listened with, all their top reviewers. I knew the owner of the magazine (now gone and a former customer of mine) and the Chief Editor (still there). Several were very good friends. We shared our audio passions. I also have a full electronics shop set up at home where I experiment with ideas and modify and design equipment. It's a great shop fully instrumented with Tektronics test equipment.

I have had a long career at a National Laboratory as an electronics design engineer specializing in exotic digital data systems. None of my fellow engineers are into audio in a serious way.

I am a very experienced listener and, I think, a good one. I have a great hi fi system worth more than I want to mention. I have a vinyl record collection over 4500 strong but not nearly as many CD's. I truly do understand the issue of taste and how that drives opinions to the death. There are very few people whose opinions I would trust to the point where I would follow their path, even the most experienced. It's really simple. I think I know more than they do. I certainly know my taste in sound better than they do. I tend strongly to follow my own path because I trust myself.

The same is not true with live recording with which I have little experience. Oh, I have recorded a lot at home but not live. The reason I knew the mic issue would be difficult is because all issues in audio are difficult when it comes to truth; most noteworthy are mics and speakers but the same is true for amplification. You know this is true. Even on this forum, in this thread, I am sceptical. I don't know these people. I don't know their background, their experience, their talent, their ears, their results, or their sonic tastes. I know what they claim but the truth is in the listening. Anyone can claim anything. They are as unknown to me as the microphones they are propounding. It is extremely unlikely I would follow any of them to death. If they are smart, they would respect this view. But, for the most part, that is asking for too much. This does not apply to everybody, thankfully. Given this attitude, I would understand why they would check out. But those who stay with me will give birth to a talented recorder. I hope that is their goal rather than trying to change the basic fabric of my being. If that is their goal, as I think it is, they will fail.

Sparky

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm not sure what else to say, Sparky.  Based on your requirements from the original post...

I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra.

...it appears the Nagra BB+ is your best recorder option given those very specific requirements.  And it seems you've already decided to use the AKG C1000S.

Personally, I think it's a mistake to spend so much on a recorder and so little on mics (and especially those mics).  I and others have tried several times to re-focus the discussion on an alternative approach which our collective experience suggests is more likely to achieve quality results.  It seems you're not interested in an alternative approach.  Fair enough -- sometimes personal, experiential learning is best.  So...give the Nagra BB+ and C1000S a go and see if you like the results.  And if/when you're ready to upgrade your mics and/or change your recorder -- the former I suspect will be quite soon -- we'll be here to provide input, if you want it.

One final thought:  I'll reiterate my recommendation to buy used gear.  Used gear may depreciate only a few percent, and often not at all as long as it's cared for well.  New gear will depreciate 15-30% the moment you purchase it.  If you're an experiential learner, and it appears you are, you'll end up switching your gear frequently in search of the elusive "perfect sound".  That 15-30% hit on every gear change will add up quickly.

[Karma]

HI Brian,
I had already bought the C 1000's before I started this thread. Remember, this was not started to discuss mics.

I'm fully aware of the advantages of buying used equipment. I have done it many times with good results. However, one does need to know what they are buying. I have found used equipment to most useful if it was originally top of the line stuff. That stuff tends to age more gracefully than mid line equipment. But, there are some things I am reluctant to buy used. Speakers and phono cartridges are in the category. These are the things that can suffer invisible abuse. I tend to see mics the same way. But maybe I'm wrong about mics. Maybe they are stouter than I think. I do know thay can be abused and mistreated almost as much as mic cables. That makes me a little shy.

Sparky

[newplanet7]

When I was listing microphones I wasn't thinking of buying new. So, my bad on that.
The AKG 460's aren't made any longer but do pop up here and there used with a little searching.

I would recommend, if you were going to buy used, to feel confident in buying from the
yard sale here on taperssection.

[aaronji]

The same is not true with live recording with which I have little experience. Oh, I have recorded a lot at home but not live. The reason I knew the mic issue would be difficult is because all issues in audio are difficult when it comes to truth; most noteworthy are mics and speakers but the same is true for amplification. You know this is true. Even on this forum, in this thread, I am sceptical. I don't know these people. I don't know their background, their experience, their talent, their ears, their results, or their sonic tastes. I know what they claim but the truth is in the listening. Anyone can claim anything. They are as unknown to me as the microphones they are propounding. It is extremely unlikely I would follow any of them to death. If they are smart, they would respect this view. But, for the most part, that is asking for too much. This does not apply to everybody, thankfully. Given this attitude, I would understand why they would check out. But those who stay with me will give birth to a talented recorder. I hope that is their goal rather than trying to change the basic fabric of my being. If that is their goal, as I think it is, they will fail.

Sparky

Geez, dude.  Lighten up.  I seriously doubt anyone is trying to "change the basic fabric of [your] being"...This is what it is: an internet forum.  People are offering their personal preferences; take them or leave them as you will.  Do you really think anyone here runs out and drops a pile of cash on a pair of mics based solely on the anonymous recommendations of a stranger on the web?  It's a valuable resource, in my opinion, and offers the possibility of forming real world connections, but you still need to make these decisions on your own (giving whatever weight you deem necessary to the comments posted here).  Given your skepticism, why bother posting in the first place?

And another thing, I am sure you're a super-genius and a King of Tapers in the making, but we're not idiots either.  A lot of people here have a wealth of recording experience, some on a professional level, and have good advice free for the taking.  Others of us are doctors, lawyers, CPAs, entrepreneurs, professors, executives, scientists, etc...

[Karma]

HI aaronji,
I posted here because I had run out of options for Nagra information. Just accept the fact that I will not take things on pure, uniformed faith. Yet, that is exactly what you are asking me to do. One doesn't get married after the first date, right?

And are you smart? Smart enough to let me do this in my own way? Smart enough to realize that you are not going to change my mind? Smart enough to know there is truth in what I am saying? Smart enought to know that I have never, and never would, claimed to be a super genius or "King of the Tapers". That just pisses me off. As for the backgrounds you mentioned, it's beside the point. I'll accept advice when it makes sense to me. If it doesn't I won't. So, it doesn't and neither do you. It's the PHD's that drove this country to the brink of destruction. Don't wave that flag. It has little credibility.

NO, I don't think you are smart enough.

Sparky

[Javier Cinakowski]

This thread has potential...
  :gets popcorn, waits for show to start:

[hoppedup]

Snarky, have you considered the Aaton Cantar-X2 paired with a Realistic 33-1065?

[kirk97132]

HI aaronji,
I posted here because I had run out of options for Nagra information. ...
And are you smart? ....That just pisses me off. As for the backgrounds you mentioned, it's beside the point. I'll accept advice when it makes sense to me. If it doesn't I won't. So, it doesn't and neither do you. It's the PHD's that drove this country to the brink of destruction. Don't wave that flag. It has little credibility.

NO, I don't think you are smart enough.

Sparky

I've followed this thread with the morbid fascination like watching the train wreck happen.  Every so often this same pattern of a newbie coming in then the exact same chain of events, JUST LIKE THIS, happens.
Really....Really...."if it doesn't make sense to me then I won't accept it"  that pretty much sums up this whole topic.  You won't listen to what anyone has to say unless it conform to your own views and/or idea, regardless of their real world experiences.     You won't listen to a PHD, someone who not only decided to educate themselves but took it to the top of their field. Why? Because you blame them for everything bad that has happened to this country.  Yeah that makes a lot of sense.  And, of course you don't need the PHD who is designing your deck and designing your mics  But hey since it don't make sense to you, don't accept it.  You're obtuse, narrow minded and still looking for someone to validate your own views. 5 pages in and it just continues to go round in circles.

[Karma]

HI kirkd,
You are wrong. And you choose to be wrong. I'll say it again (how many times must I say it?). This was a post concerning Nagra not mics. I am not the one bringing it to a full circle. It's you, and others like you, doing that. I'm not going to simply be a punching bag for your, umm, crap. I will come at you like an eagle with stretched talons.

So beware.

Since the thread has moved into mics like an inevitable natural force, it has been useful. At least I'm learning from it. I think others will too. So, depart from us if you can't make a contribution. I really don't care what you think about me. I just consider the source and then all is right.

Sparky