Topic: Edirol R-4

[flask]

Now this looks interesting.
http://livefromaes.com/articles/publish/article_9.shtml

[Popmarter]

It does, for those who want digi-in. But we cant stealth with it, so i vote for Edirol R1 

[Brian Skalinder]

Verrrrrry interesting.  Can't wait to learn more about this thing.  Thanks for the post!

[EA]

Nice! 4 channels even. It'll be interesting to see what the price point is on this. This could end up being some serious competition for the SD744.

[Nick's Picks]

Now this looks interesting.
http://livefromaes.com/articles/publish/article_9.shtml

hmmm...
very interesting indeed.
I bet it wont be too expensive.  I'll see if I can't get one for review.

[johnw]

About time! 40G hd, 24/96, coax in, phantom power, 4 channels, USB2. Firewire would have been nice, but if this gets priced under $1K, I'll predict that this is what I'll be using in a year or two. I'm guessing this is the pro model of the R1 that Edirol hinted would have digi-in?

[setboy]

wow that looks nice


Raphael

[Kelso]

I don't expect this to be under 1k$
I will probably be between 1500 and 2000 $
Look at the competitors.
I was expecting a r-2 more than a r-4: Can't they make one with two xlr in, digi in,phantom power, the size of the r-1, and less than 700 bucks?

[MattD]

Edirol ... have they made a bit-perfect product yet?

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't expect this to be under 1k$
I will probably be between 1500 and 2000 $
Look at the competitors.

True, but consider Edirol's prices on other products relative to the competitors.  For example, UA-5.  A whopping $300 or less.  V3 = $1300.  MMe = > $1,000.  I think it's entirely conceivable it'll go for < $1,000.  'Course, we'll only know once it hits the street.

Can't they make one with two xlr in, digi in,phantom power, the size of the r-1, and less than 700 bucks?

No kidding!!  That's all I want behind my V3.

[HeliBass]

Looks nice.
Kinda Big. Power requirements not given, no mention of it on the Edirol site.

Stay tunes for updates.

Thanks for the heads up!

[Daryan]

It looks hella cool to me, though if I was guessing, I would surmise based on the stock ua-5 it would be a good unit for modding.  I am betting less than 1000.

Daryan

[Rick]

Ok so when can I order my Oade R-4 T-Mod ?? 

I'm guessing MSRP = $999. If this is near a $1k, I'm getting one.

[Popmarter]

too big for stealth, i hope to fall in love with the Edirol  R-1

[wbrisette]

too big for stealth, i hope to fall in love with the Edirol  R-1

I really don't think you're ever going to get a 4 channel recorder with phantom XLRs that will work for stealth.

Wayne

[Popmarter]

Guess you are right Wayne. Stealthtaper will have to do it with -almost, but- machines 

[wbrisette]

Guess you are right Wayne. Stealthtaper will have to do it with -almost, but- machines 

But, really if you think about it, what the heck is a stealth taper going to do with 4 channels? I highly doubt in a stealth situation you're going to be able to get 4 mics going and get a mix that sounds good. It takes me a while in the open to get everything right with four mics.

Wayne

[Popmarter]

yes thats true.

comes to mind: has anyone (stealther) ever run two setups at the same time? i have two recorders and two mics. i could try and wire myself up real cool. however, i might look like the una-bomber right 

[EA]

I want a stealth recorder that'll do 5.1. I'll just tape DPA's all the way around my head 

[Ed.]

that thing looks like fun, i can always run my njb3 for stealth in the rare stealth occasion.

come on edirol, be bit perfect for once in your career.

[kgreener]

This from Doug Oade:

#2082, "RE: Edirol R-4"
In response to Reply # 1

...I agree, it should be a boon to advanced tapers. As it is made by a company with a lot of resources (Roland) it should pack a big bang for the buck. If it sounds good or can be made to sound good, I will own one ASAP. No info is supposed to be out in public before this Thursday. I bet if the guys at Edirol saw Recordista's post they would be shocked, they no doubt think they managed to keep it a secret! Once I get one in my shop, I will offer an opinion based on how it sounds, a full description of the feature set will be made public on Thursday .
peace...Doug

P.S.  just noticed the original link (http://livefromaes.com/articles/publish/article_9.shtml) isn't working now.  Coincidence?  Maybe Edirol is pissed this got out to the public so they pulled it...

[kgreener]

This from Doug Oade:

#2082, "RE: Edirol R-4"
In response to Reply # 1

...I agree, it should be a boon to advanced tapers. As it is made by a company with a lot of resources (Roland) it should pack a big bang for the buck. If it sounds good or can be made to sound good, I will own one ASAP. No info is supposed to be out in public before this Thursday. I bet if the guys at Edirol saw Recordista's post they would be shocked, they no doubt think they managed to keep it a secret! Once I get one in my shop, I will offer an opinion based on how it sounds, a full description of the feature set will be made public on Thursday .
peace...Doug

P.S.  just noticed the original link (http://livefromaes.com/articles/publish/article_9.shtml) isn't working now.  Coincidence?  Maybe Edirol is pissed this got out to the public so they pulled it, or asked to have it pulled.

[John Kelly]

Anyone save the pictures?  I assume there were some since people were discussing it's size.

My hopes are very high, hopefully Edirol figured out how to make it bit perfect...

[Ed.]

My hopes are very high, hopefully Edirol figured out how to make it bit perfect...

lets keep are fingers crossed.

[Chrysler]

are there already devices with the serial R-2 and R-3 on the market? otherwise id assume that there might be more recording devices coming...

[Ed.]

yeah, this was leaked and we weren't supposed to know about it until thursday...theres a high chance that the R-2 might be unveiled then as well.

[Chrysler]

theres no info on R-2 or R-3 on the edirol homepage, you can access the R-4 Details on their homepage - the product detail sheet is already on their server:

http://edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

[nickgregory]

here is the pdf...seems like a sweet device...will be interesting to see th price point.

http://edirol.com/products/info/r4/brochure.pdf

[pfife]

That thing looks pretty damn cool, if you ask me.  The fact that it has phantom power is pretty cool too, esp. if Oade can/will do W/P/T mods on that sucka.

It's gonna be expensive, but it might be worth it if you can get 24/96, and a pre/recorder all in one box.

So we find out how much it'll cost tomorrow? 

[nickgregory]

SWEET, it has its own mic...now I will not only have an all in one box...but that will include the mics...like my first realistic tape deck!!!

[pfife]

SWEET, it has its own mic...now I will not only have an all in one box...but that will include the mics...like my first realistic tape deck!!!

I was just thinking the same thing!!!  Why only two mics though?  Should have four...

You know, they could lose all that wave editing crap, and prolly make it significantly cheaper.  I am really giddy about this thing- hope its affordable.

Maybe Guitar Center will carry them, so we can check them out on "musicians loan" 

[Ed.]

haha, says it'll run off of 8 AA's or ac power.  ok smart power people, what does that mean.  will a 9v be sufficient?

[MattD]

AAs = 1.5V each. 8 in series = 12V.

Will it run off of 9? That depends on the tolerances of the power supply.

[Chris K]

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

[Flarnet]

Anything from 12 to 9 Volts will probably be acceptable (since 8 Alkalines puts out 12V and rechargables put out about 9.5V).

Any takers on price? The closest shipping competitor with 4 microphone inputs is the Zaxcom Deva 5 at about 12 000 USD. The closest vaporware competitor is the Zaxcom Fusion at about 5 000.
Two FR-2s (at God-knows-how-many pounds with 16 AA batteries and all) are about 3 000 when you include media and power adapter.
It looks really plastic and toy-ish to me. I'm guessing 1 999 or 2 499 list.

Their biggest problem is target group. Most musicians don't give a rats ass about microphone inputs or 4 channels (and those who do want a hell of a lot more than 4 channels - they want a MDM). Most tapers are not ready for surround taping in terms of their other gear so if it's significantly more than the FR-2 they will have absolutely no reason to buy it (disregarding storage issues).

The lack of 4 channels of digital input is also a REAL bummer. Provided that it is bit perfect (don't count on it - look at the broschure how all data passes through the dsp unit) it COULD have been the killer machine for newbies, a perfect 3-step machine. First you go straight in. Then when you wanna upgrade you get a Lunatec V3 or similar. Then when you wanna go surround you get another V3.

All in all it's another nice option. Unfortunately it's also vaporware and I don't really feel like the 722 and the Fusion needs any company in that department.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

AAs = 1.5V each. 8 in series = 12V.

Will it run off of 9? That depends on the tolerances of the power supply.

Alkaline cells are 1.5V.  Rechargable NiMH AA cells are 1.2V.  That would make it 9.6V dc from 8 AA rechargable cells.  The device will tolerate voltage input of 1.5V per cell but I'm sure they designed it to work with the 1.2V rechargable cells.  The spec says external 9V DC source so the 9.6V RC rechargables should work fine as an external source.

[Ed.]

good to know on the batteries, now will it be bit accurate and how pricey will it be?  i think if its bit accurate and around $1000 it might outsell a lot of the other products out right now and possibly even the sd722/44 - most people will be running their favorite pre's outfront anyway.

[Chrysler]

great device, i only hope that there'll be another device with digi-in and palm-size for stealth-tapers...Even the R-1 is kinda big...compared to D100 or MD

[Ed.]

i don't think stealth tapers are ever going to get the recorder they're looking for.  but then again, i don't know what kind of shows you guy stape, cuz i've never had a problem stealthing my nomad.

[Brian Skalinder]

Understanding that the R-4 isn't targeted at us, specifically, as an audience, I have a tough time in general - taking into account other target markets - WTF they were thinking by including the following:

• Built-in Non-Directional Mics
• Five High-Quality Effects
• Waveform Editing
• Built-In Stereo Speakers

Didn't see where the power plug lives and couldn't figure it out from any of the images.  I'm guessing it's on the rear of the unit, of which there are no pics.

Provided that it is bit perfect (don't count on it - look at the broschure how all data passes through the dsp unit)

Given Edirol's track record, I, too, doubt it'll be bit-perfect.  But, I don't see in the brochure any indication that all incoming signals route through the DSP unit.  As I see it in the block diagram (attached), the incoming signal can be routed selectively either through the DSP unit or bypass it outright.

Edited for formatting.

[L Ron Hoover]

Digital Input
32kHz to 96kHz
(Convert to internal sample rate)

Methinks this means it's not bit accurate on digital input.

[Brian Skalinder]

Digital Input
32kHz to 96kHz
(Convert to internal sample rate)

Methinks this means it's not bit accurate on digital input.

Good catch, I missed that one.  I bet you're right.   

And I wonder how exactly they dither from 24- to 16-bits.

[Rick]

Didn't see where the power plug lives and couldn't figure it out from any of the images.  I'm guessing it's on the rear of the unit, of which there are no pics.

It's next to the USB out on the left pannel.

[Rick]

Digital Input
32kHz to 96kHz
(Convert to internal sample rate)

Methinks this means it's not bit accurate on digital input.

But if you go mic/line-in that shouldn't be a problem though, right? Its only a problem if you want to run an outboard A/D. right?

[John R]

no firewire, bummer

[L Ron Hoover]

But if you go mic/line-in that shouldn't be a problem though, right? Its only a problem if you want to run an outboard A/D. right?

I'd imagine so. I'm sure a lot of people are hoping they could run MME or V3 dig- out into this

[wbrisette]

Any takers on price? The closest shipping competitor with 4 microphone inputs is the Zaxcom Deva 5 at about 12 000 USD. The closest vaporware competitor is the Zaxcom Fusion at about 5 000.

Actually not true. Zaxcom Deva II, which has been available for about 3 years now. You can currently pick one up "factory refurbished" for 5K (I did just this earlier this week). It has 4 phantom powered inputs, but for "current" models you are correct.

Wayne

[wbrisette]

Understanding that the R-4 isn't targeted at us, specifically, as an audience, I have a tough time in general - taking into account other target markets - WTF they were thinking by including the following:

• Built-in Non-Directional Mics
• Five High-Quality Effects
• Waveform Editing
• Built-In Stereo Speakers

This unit really is targeted specifically to the ENG crowd and also the local band crowd. For the news folks this unit is exactly what they were looking for, and you're right it's not designed for us.

Wayne

[Brian Skalinder]

This unit really is targeted specifically to the ENG crowd and also the local band crowd. For the news folks this unit is exactly what they were looking for, and you're right it's not designed for us.

The ENG crowd really wants the features I listed?  I guess I'm out of touch.

[Rick]

But if you go mic/line-in that shouldn't be a problem though, right? Its only a problem if you want to run an outboard A/D. right?

I'd imagine so. I'm sure a lot of people are hoping they could run MME or V3 dig- out into this

Your probably right. I would want to do Schoeps MK4 > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 > Edirol R-4 @ 24/96 though 

[Flarnet]

They way I'm reading the block diagram you cannot bypass the DSP. Look at the limiters, THEY can be totally bypassed, but the signal invariably passes through the DSP. The switch by the DSP is only there to let you know that you can run the effects on a live feed. The degree to witch a broschure block diagram can be taken as gospel is perhaps the most interesting question...

And I forgot to mention the Fostex PD-6 as well, quite a bit cheaper than the Deva 5. And the Deva 2 is discontinued, plus it only does 48k which doesn't exactly feel 2004 to me.

[Thomas]

I didn't read all the way through all of the posts so this may be here already.


At the bottom of the news item about the R4 on edirols site it says that they will be shipping in Feb of 2005.

[Popmarter]

It's there!!

http://www.edirol.com/


Now, where is R2 and R3???

[wbrisette]

This unit really is targeted specifically to the ENG crowd and also the local band crowd. For the news folks this unit is exactly what they were looking for, and you're right it's not designed for us.

The ENG crowd really wants the features I listed?  I guess I'm out of touch.

The idea is to have the reporter carry one of these or the R-1 and basically have the news bites all set and ready to go ... (ie cut out the post production step of making the sound bite itself). That's one of the reasons for the wave editor. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it saves production money and time, which is the goal. Now, four channels is overkill and I suspect the R-1 will be used more often in this role, but that's is why they put the mics in the units.

Wayne

[nickgregory]

interesting view posted by Doug on Oade:

"No modern PCM recorder is bit accurate, no over sampling A/D converter can possibly be bit accurate, nature of the beast ! You must go DSD if you want all the data.
Is the digital input bit accurate ? Depends on the design, if it is able to use the recovered clock from the dig in for the A/D converter, it could be. Odds are the digi in is a resampler on any 4 channel box that has both analog and digi ins that will stay in sync with each other. If it does resample, the more crucial question is will the digi out pass the original data and clock or the resampled data. I do not mind a HQ resampler for a mastering device but if it resamples within a daisy chain, I would not want to be the last guy in that chain.
peace ..>Doug "

[Thomas]

Price tentatively set at $1899.00.

  I was hoping it would be cheaper.

[Rick]

Price tentatively set at $1899.00.

  I was hoping it would be cheaper.

Well that blows

[Brian Skalinder]

Price tentatively set at $1899.00.

Ouch. Not terribly surprised that I'll have to continue to wait for an inexpensive 24-bit HD recorder without all the bells and whistles. I have a sneaking suspicion I'll never see one and will have to eventually bite the bullet on one of the all-on-one boxes and simply not use the other features (assuming I continue to loooove my V3 as pre/ADC).

[John Kelly]

Price tentatively set at $1899.00.

  I was hoping it would be cheaper.

I was thinking no more than a grand.  Guess I was way off.

Stupid Edirol...  Getting my hopes up.  I really should've known better.

[Ed.]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

[kgreener]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking...maybe the $1899.00 reference is what it lists for, but will be sold (hopefully) much cheaper?  We shall see.

[John Kelly]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking...maybe the $1899.00 reference is what it lists for, but will be sold (hopefully) much cheaper?  We shall see.

Doesn't really matter though.  At that list I would guess a retail price would be around $1500.  Since the probability of it being bit perfect is almost zero, I think it's still too much to pay.

[Rick]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Still. If the street is $1500 your still pretty high.

[nic]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Still. If the street is $1500 your still pretty high.

how so?
the ModFR2 is @ $1600 and that's only 2 channels
the 722 is over $2000, the 744 even higher.

so far this Edirol is the cheapest of all AND it is 4 channels

[Ed.]

can you send the fr2 a straight digital signal and not mod it?  just use it to record?

[nic]

can you send the fr2 a straight digital signal and not mod it?  just use it to record?

its got a AES in/out.
cant see what would be modded at that stage. . .

yes, the unit can record without any mods.
as far as I know, the only mods Oade is doing to these are overload and preamp mods.
all of those are in the analog stage

[Thomas]

a modded (digi + w|p|t) ua5 from oade is over $500 right?  This might mean if it can be modded that would push the price near to the $1900 mark. 

I can't say that ive ever listened to a modded ua5 recording.  I have heard that alot of people like them.  I have been thinking alot lately about going with the all in one box, or at least letting the box do the a>d.  If this is $1900 then i would probably rather spend a few hundred extra and get the 722.

[Ed.]

its got a AES in/out.
cant see what would be modded at that stage. . .

yes, the unit can record without any mods.
as far as I know, the only mods Oade is doing to these are overload and preamp mods.
all of those are in the analog stage

but it doesn't record to hdd right?  how much is the base unit.  i just bought a v3, all i really need a digital recorder that will accept a digital signal and record at 24bit.  i'm still thinking a laptop is my favorite option thus far.  after i record the show, i can split it on the way home.

[nic]

its got a AES in/out.
cant see what would be modded at that stage. . .

yes, the unit can record without any mods.
as far as I know, the only mods Oade is doing to these are overload and preamp mods.
all of those are in the analog stage

but it doesn't record to hdd right?  how much is the base unit.  i just bought a v3, all i really need a digital recorder that will accept a digital signal and record at 24bit.  i'm still thinking a laptop is my favorite option thus far.  after i record the show, i can split it on the way home.

sure it does. it uses PC Card drives or CF cards...of course, you're not going to find a 10+GB drive to fit into it anytime soon...

[Ed.]

yeah, it'd be awesome if i could just throw a 120gb hdd into it.  its not like i run around shaking my recorder, and you definitely can't stealth it.

[John Kelly]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Still. If the street is $1500 your still pretty high.

how so?
the ModFR2 is @ $1600 and that's only 2 channels
the 722 is over $2000, the 744 even higher.

so far this Edirol is the cheapest of all AND it is 4 channels

Then again it's also the one that isn't bit perfect (I'm assuming the FR2 is, I'm not 100% sure). 

It does seem like a great option if you don't want to run anything in front of it.  I just love my V3 and I really don't want to give it up for something like this.

[Ed.]

yeah, i just bought the v3, it can do 24/192 so i don't see myself giving it up for quite sometime, thats kinda why i bought it.

[wbrisette]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Still. If the street is $1500 your still pretty high.

how so?
the ModFR2 is @ $1600 and that's only 2 channels
the 722 is over $2000, the 744 even higher.

so far this Edirol is the cheapest of all AND it is 4 channels

The other thing to remember is even the 744 only provides 2 mic inputs. If you want more microphone inputs, you're going to have to go with a mixer (they suggest the 442 -- No surprise there) to add additional mics, then take the line out of the mixer to the other channels.

Not a bad price, but will the mic pre's in this unit be worthwhile? That's the million dollar question.

Wayne

[Ed.]

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=28935.30

[Rick]

isn't the msrp for the ua-5 like $500+ tho, i can't remember.

Still. If the street is $1500 your still pretty high.

how so?
the ModFR2 is @ $1600 and that's only 2 channels
the 722 is over $2000, the 744 even higher.

so far this Edirol is the cheapest of all AND it is 4 channels

No I just ment for me. That's a little more then I was hoping for. If its good quality, I don't see a problem with the price.

[Brian Skalinder]

The idea is to have the reporter carry one of these or the R-1 and basically have the news bites all set and ready to go ... (ie cut out the post production step of making the sound bite itself). That's one of the reasons for the wave editor. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it saves production money and time, which is the goal. Now, four channels is overkill and I suspect the R-1 will be used more often in this role, but that's is why they put the mics in the units.

Makes sense if I stop to think about it, just didn't realize straight away that on-site production was that big a deal.  I also assumed ENG users would want higher quality mics (of course, baking in another assumption that the built-in mics won't be very good).

[JasonSobel]

so there's been a lot of discussion here about bit-perfection, about how the analog side of things is going to  sound, a brief discussion about powering.  but I think something has been left out of our discussion (please forgive me if this was already covered and I just missed it) :

What about our good old friend, Mr. 2 gig limit?

it says that it records in .wav format, so I'm assuming the 2 gig limit is in effect (again, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I sort of remember hearing that 2 gigs is a limitaion of windows, and that the real limit for .wav files is 4 gigs.  either way, I'm using windows, and this might be an issue)

will this start up another track seamlessly?  has this been addressed anywhere?  any ideas?

[nic]

so there's been a lot of discussion here about bit-perfection, about how the analog side of things is going to  sound, a brief discussion about powering.  but I think something has been left out of our discussion (please forgive me if this was already covered and I just missed it) :

What about our good old friend, Mr. 2 gig limit?

it says that it records in .wav format, so I'm assuming the 2 gig limit is in effect (again, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I sort of remember hearing that 2 gigs is a limitaion of windows, and that the real limit for .wav files is 4 gigs.  either way, I'm using windows, and this might be an issue)

will this start up another track seamlessly?  has this been addressed anywhere?  any ideas?

hopefully, it saves each channel seperately, aka, mono.
that would greatly reduce filesize and the mono files can be easily joined to stereo in post

[kindms]

either that or an auto split feature which would make the file size not as big an issue like WaveLab.

at 1500+ though I think I would still go with the 2 channel SD 722.  Thats assuming that the SD front end is better etc (i think it will be) plus the AES in and some other bells and whistles that the SD has over this. It seems that the SD device has features that I value more as a taper then this device but this thing is really really cool. It is nice to see a unit get soooo close to what i have always wanted

[JasonSobel]

hopefully, it saves each channel seperately, aka, mono.
that would greatly reduce filesize and the mono files can be easily joined to stereo in post

hmm, yes, I didn't think of that.  but still, at 24/96 stereo, you're at 2 gig per hour.  so mono, each track would be at 2 gigs in 2 hours.  I know I'e taped shows that are one long set that goes for more than 2 hours.  so an autosplit feature would still be nice.  has anyone seen any mention of that feature?

[Ed.]

not for sure, but if you're using an ntfs formatted hdd can't your file size be quite a bit larger?  is there even a limit?  i'm not familiar enuf with that too know.

[John Kelly]

The wav format itself is limited to 2 gigs.  Hopefully it'll use either W64 or SDIIextended so the 2 gig limit is not a factor.

I say hopefully, but I'm not hoping since I basically ruled this unit out.

[caymanreview]

why have you rules it out so soon?

[John Kelly]

why have you rules it out so soon?

Price, basically.  At that price I'd rather spend a bit more for a 722.  At least then I could get a digital in if I wanted one.

[caymanreview]

yeah you have a point. we will just have to see about its digi in's

[caymanreview]

quote from Doug Oade from the Oade.com board

    

Tentatively set at 1899.00 ...Doug

[Nick's Picks]

my Edirol guy says....
"$1595 will likely be the street price"
so we can expect it to be between $1475-1600 i'd guess.
This would be for a UA5 w/a hard drive + some fluffy features we'd never use.
I still think that is a good deal.  I"m guessing it will have similar mic preamps and A/D (if not identicle...which would certainly not be a bad thing).

If doug can mod it, then you're looking at $1800 for  mod' UA-5 sound...which is reference quality.

stock FR-2 w/dual 5gb PC cards = $1600 approx.  so it will be likely better to buy the R4 w/its big drive if you are looking for just a recorder. 
laptops are not an option,imo.  If you want 24/96 ROCK SOLID, then you are paying equal...and getting less, imo.  Remember HAL and what it did to its end users? 

[wbrisette]

hopefully, it saves each channel seperately, aka, mono.
that would greatly reduce filesize and the mono files can be easily joined to stereo in post

hmm, yes, I didn't think of that.  but still, at 24/96 stereo, you're at 2 gig per hour.  so mono, each track would be at 2 gigs in 2 hours.  I know I'e taped shows that are one long set that goes for more than 2 hours.  so an autosplit feature would still be nice.  has anyone seen any mention of that feature?

Yesterday I got my DEVA II unit and here is how they get around the the 4 GB issue, They buffer 10 seconds of audio, so when you're coming close to the 4 GB limit, you simply press stop, then record again (you're the human "autosplit"), and it then starts a new session and you don't miss a thing.

Wayne

[Kelso]

hope they'll release a r-2 with two in that'll be around 1k$

[Daryan]

sure it does. it uses PC Card drives or CF cards...of course, you're not going to find a 10+GB drive to fit into it anytime soon...

Not true entirely...10gb cards from Toshiba are due out next month.  40 gb is only a year away!
Plus, the cost of cf cards is dropping monthly!

[John Kelly]

hopefully, it saves each channel seperately, aka, mono.
that would greatly reduce filesize and the mono files can be easily joined to stereo in post

hmm, yes, I didn't think of that.  but still, at 24/96 stereo, you're at 2 gig per hour.  so mono, each track would be at 2 gigs in 2 hours.  I know I'e taped shows that are one long set that goes for more than 2 hours.  so an autosplit feature would still be nice.  has anyone seen any mention of that feature?

Yesterday I got my DEVA II unit and here is how they get around the the 4 GB issue, They buffer 10 seconds of audio, so when you're coming close to the 4 GB limit, you simply press stop, then record again (you're the human "autosplit"), and it then starts a new session and you don't miss a thing.

Wayne

If I'm spending as much as the DEVA II costs, that is completely unacceptable.

[wbrisette]

If I'm spending as much as the DEVA II costs, that is completely unacceptable.

You have to remember the Deva II is a unit that has been around for 2/2.5 years. It is no longer made, and my understanding is the newer Deva IV and V units don't suffer this issue. The new units also use a custom lossless compression scheme when they record so that they can get more tracks onto less disc space. When mirrored to another device the newer units will put the file into BWF (broadcast wave format). So you really could end up with 2 types of files from the same source.

Wayne

[Tall Adam]

to shed some light on a few things in here:

the power issue - this thing takes the same adaptor as the UA-5, thus it will be powerable by our friendly walmart units (unless im horribly wrong).

2 gig limit - from my understanding this is a softwar/drive format issue, not a wav issue. 4 gig maybe wav limit, but ive certainly recorded wav's over 2gig without issue (i think my longest continuous wav yet is around 1:40) and all that with audacity (FREE!). so yeah, 2 gig is a wavelab/non NTFS thing.

tell me if im wrong on either front

[John Kelly]

to shed some light on a few things in here:

the power issue - this thing takes the same adaptor as the UA-5, thus it will be powerable by our friendly walmart units (unless im horribly wrong).

2 gig limit - from my understanding this is a softwar/drive format issue, not a wav issue. 4 gig maybe wav limit, but ive certainly recorded wav's over 2gig without issue (i think my longest continuous wav yet is around 1:40) and all that with audacity (FREE!). so yeah, 2 gig is a wavelab/non NTFS thing.

tell me if im wrong on either front

You're wrong on the wav thing.  The wav format itself is limited to 2 gigabytes.  In order to go beyond that limit you can do one of two things:  1) record in dual mono (which would give each channel a 2 gig limit), or 2) use a different file format (such as wav64 or SDIIextended) that support files over 2 gigs.

[Tall Adam]

perhaps it lies in the fact that audacity doesnt actually record to wave but to its own format and then exports to wav? but when it exports, ive certainly made wavs that are well over 2gigs

[John Kelly]

perhaps it lies in the fact that audacity doesnt actually record to wave but to its own format and then exports to wav? but when it exports, ive certainly made wavs that are well over 2gigs

Does audacity do 24 bit?  Cuz I don't see it in my Audacity prefs...

[Tall Adam]

which version? in 1.2.2 its under the quality tab i believe, 16,24,and 32 float options if i remember correctly

[John Kelly]

which version? in 1.2.2 its under the quality tab i believe, 16,24,and 32 float options if i remember correctly

I see it, I never really play with audacity much. 

I'm having trouble finding anything on Google, but I do know that wav is limited to 2 gigs.

[Tall Adam]

debate ive read about the matter on other forums led me to belive that the 2 gigs was a FAT/16/32 issue and it was resolved with NTFS, BUT wavelab and someother software maintained the limit inspite of the new formatting.

[scb]

the 2/4 gig limit is based on wav being a 32 bit format.  2^32 will give you the limit

it's a wav format thing, not an OS/filesystem thing

[Tall Adam]

cool thanks for clearing that up.

[John Kelly]

debate ive read about the matter on other forums led me to belive that the 2 gigs was a FAT/16/32 issue and it was resolved with NTFS, BUT wavelab and someother software maintained the limit inspite of the new formatting.

That doesn't make sense as to why they'd be limited to 2 gigs on other file systems.  Linux and Mac both have the 2 gig limit for wav files.  I'm sure it's somewhere else in the forum, I just can't seem to find a "spec" document about wav anywhere...

Edit - Nevermind, didn't see that Scott had chimed in.

[dklein]

fwiw, I regularly create and use wave files > 2 GB when recording and editing.
16 bit, 24 bit or 32 floating point
win 2k
fat 32
Using CEP to edit and Kristal for recording.  Wavelab won't do it.

[sygdwm]

fwiw, I regularly create and use wave files > 2 GB when recording and editing.
16 bit, 24 bit or 32 floating point
win 2k
fat 32
Using CEP to edit and Kristal for recording.  Wavelab won't do it.

what is kristal? never heard of it besides rap videos.

[dklein]

what is kristal? never heard of it besides rap videos.

I have an emagic A62 USB interface and sometimes run mics and board into it.  I needed multitrack software that supported ASIO drivers.  Cubase was glitching like crazy and pretty tough to look at so I found this freeware.  It's rock solid stable, uses very little cpu, writes the waves as it goes (so you have a playable file if something messes up), and does 24 bit.  My only beef is the meters are small and not resizable.

http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/index.php

[wbrisette]

I have an emagic A62 USB interface and sometimes run mics and board into it.  I needed multitrack software that supported ASIO drivers.  Cubase was glitching like crazy and pretty tough to look at so I found this freeware.  It's rock solid stable, uses very little cpu, writes the waves as it goes (so you have a playable file if something messes up), and does 24 bit.  My only beef is the meters are small and not resizable.

http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/index.php

This is pretty sweet and it's free. Not fond of the color selection in the display window for the tracks, but overall reminds me of Digital Performer (or at least a much older version of the application). I can't run it since I use a mac for everything, but it certainly seems to have everything... and how can you beat the price. This product needs to get posted in the permanent post area so people who are looking for multi-track stuff can find it easier. With so many people claiming to be lined up for the 744, I see a real need for a good multi-track application for both Windows and the Mac. Everything I'm aware of on the Mac is going to cost you, so the PC folks actually have a leg up on the Mac folks in this area.

Wayne

[sygdwm]

what is kristal? never heard of it besides rap videos.

I have an emagic A62 USB interface and sometimes run mics and board into it.  I needed multitrack software that supported ASIO drivers.  Cubase was glitching like crazy and pretty tough to look at so I found this freeware.  It's rock solid stable, uses very little cpu, writes the waves as it goes (so you have a playable file if something messes up), and does 24 bit.  My only beef is the meters are small and not resizable.

http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/index.php

sweet d00d. gonna give her a whirl tonite. +t.

[dklein]

Just wanted to clarify that I only use Kristal for recording multitrack.  After that, I pop the waves into CEP multitrack to do the mixdown.  Kristal may be fine for that purpose as well but I'm so comfortable with CEP it's still the tool of choice.

So for me, the key features of Kristal are:
multitrack
ASIO
24 bit
low cpu ( = longer battery life)

[zephead]

This unit really is targeted specifically to the ENG crowd and also the local band crowd. For the news folks this unit is exactly what they were looking for, and you're right it's not designed for us.

The ENG crowd really wants the features I listed?  I guess I'm out of touch.

The idea is to have the reporter carry one of these or the R-1 and basically have the news bites all set and ready to go ... (ie cut out the post production step of making the sound bite itself). That's one of the reasons for the wave editor. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it saves production money and time, which is the goal. Now, four channels is overkill and I suspect the R-1 will be used more often in this role, but that's is why they put the mics in the units.

Wayne

Hey Wayne,

Maybe for a reporter doing a camera address it's overkill but I sure as hell want 4 channels to record with on my productions - 4 mics in an given environment means more options to mix and so is better for me. I've been looking at the SD7 series for a while so this is a much anticipated contender.

[joemango]

so do we have any more info on ETA and pricing of the R4?

Is Oade gonna mod the sucka?

Will Bert and Mary's baby really be an alien?

Find out on the next....  SOAP.

[bhtoque]

+ T for the soap reference.

That show was funny as hell.

JAson

[Chanher]

so dklein, you're saying that when you record multi-track using Kristal you just let the files run over 2 gigs no problem? What about when you try to open the files up later in a different program?

[joemango]

+ T for the soap reference.

That show was funny as hell.

JAson

Hell yeah it was!  Unfortunately Comedy Central beat it to death in reruns.  +T if you can name the show it spun off....

[Steve J]

Benson

[kindms]

Robert Guillaume Rules your face!!!         

[joemango]

2 +T's goin out!


Hey Mike, you gonna be at AOD tonight at toads?

[kindms]

I wont make it. I have to work til 8.

Is Ryan Montbleau opening ?

[Tall Adam]

tape montbleau. i'm diggin this guy of late.

[dklein]

so dklein, you're saying that when you record multi-track using Kristal you just let the files run over 2 gigs no problem? What about when you try to open the files up later in a different program?

hey - sorry for the delay - vacations and all.  Yeah, I just let it go as long as it needs to.  Here's my recollection of the deal on file sizes...I think the wave format is actually spec'd to 4 GB.
I believe that whole 2 GB limit is really part of the old FAT16 filesystem used in Windows, which nobody uses anymore.
On a newer file system (FAT32 or NTFS), the wave format can go to 4 GB.  If the files are over 2 GB, some audio editors can't open/edit the files.  Wavelab is unhappy whereas Cool Edit Pro (or Audition I think it's called now) is fine.  In fact the only problems I've ever run into with file sizes have been with Wavelab.

I haven't ever exceeded 4 GB so I don't know what happens then.  All my audio recording is on FAT32, which has a file size limit of 4 GB anyways.  I believe there are some proprietary recording file formats that can go bigger (as long as you're using NTFS which supports files > 4GB).

[John Kelly]

so dklein, you're saying that when you record multi-track using Kristal you just let the files run over 2 gigs no problem? What about when you try to open the files up later in a different program?

hey - sorry for the delay - vacations and all.  Yeah, I just let it go as long as it needs to.  Here's my recollection of the deal on file sizes...I think the wave format is actually spec'd to 4 GB.
I believe that whole 2 GB limit is really part of the old FAT16 filesystem used in Windows, which nobody uses anymore.
On a newer file system (FAT32 or NTFS), the wave format can go to 4 GB.  If the files are over 2 GB, some audio editors can't open/edit the files.  Wavelab is unhappy whereas Cool Edit Pro (or Audition I think it's called now) is fine.  In fact the only problems I've ever run into with file sizes have been with Wavelab.

I haven't ever exceeded 4 GB so I don't know what happens then.  All my audio recording is on FAT32, which has a file size limit of 4 GB anyways.  I believe there are some proprietary recording file formats that can go bigger (as long as you're using NTFS which supports files > 4GB).

Not true.  Wav itself is limited to 2gb, it's successor wav64 has a higher limit (can't recall exactly what it is). 

[dklein]

Not true.  Wav itself is limited to 2gb, it's successor wav64 has a higher limit (can't recall exactly what it is). 

ummm...not, not true.  And it seems a little silly to say that when you have loads of people that are recording, editing and playing back files > 2GB 

Here's a little something on wav64 that talks about that format being used to tackle the 4GB limit inherent in standard wav
media.vcs.de/Downloads/MBS-WAVE-64.pdf

I thought you were a mac guy anyways (or perhaps that's why this is being debated).

[John Kelly]

Not true.  Wav itself is limited to 2gb, it's successor wav64 has a higher limit (can't recall exactly what it is). 

ummm...not, not true.  And it seems a little silly to say that when you have loads of people that are recording, editing and playing back files > 2GB 

Here's a little something on wav64 that talks about that format being used to tackle the 4GB limit inherent in standard wav
media.vcs.de/Downloads/MBS-WAVE-64.pdf

I thought you were a mac guy anyways (or perhaps that's why this is being debated).

I dunno where that's from, but it is incorrect (and in fact the only thing I have *ever* seen that says wav has a 4 gig limit).  The IFF spec uses a 32-bit unsigned integer and is limited to 2 GB (2048 MB). This includes wav (RIFF), AIFF and TIFF.

If it were in fact a limitation of the drive format that would not explain why my iBook is limited to 2 gigs on a Wav in Spark on an HFS+ drive.

After some searching I think I may have found what your software is doing:

The 2Gbyte limit comes from the fact that the size of a WAV file is
represented by a 32 bit number at the beginning of the file. When the
file size exceeds 2Gbytes, that number becomes negative when
interpreted as a signed integer. If the number is properly
interpreted you wind up with a 4Gbyte file size limitation.

So basically the spec calls for a 2 gigabyte limit, but if the software doesn't go by the wav spec they can "cheat" and reach the 4 gigs.  Technically it wouldn't be an actual wav file, though.

[Tall Adam]

well i didnt believe the 4 gig thing until tonight. i recorded a wav that shows its size as 4.5 gb but when opened in winamp, its 15:41 long (when in reality its more like 2:15:41). i've never had that problem with waves over 2 gig, but 4 seems to be the magic number

[joemango]

I wont make it. I have to work til 8.

Is Ryan Montbleau opening ?

No some band called Bunji opened.  I got there just before Reid got on stage.  There was a Schoeps - MiniMe setup running, I got the guy's E-mail (Hi, Carl!)

[Tall Adam]

did you catch bunji? were they any good? i had a few of their mp3s on my computer for a while. i thought they were ... ok...

[kindms]

Schoeps -> MiniMe (at an AOD show) = Carl.

He makes it to just about every show. Very nice guy.

I really enjoy taping those guys. Jack is a great soundman and is about as taper friendly as they come. I think he posts on here from time to time as well. The crowd usually has a lot of energy which is a plus I would rather have to deal with too much energy then a really flat crowd / show.

[joemango]

I didn't make it there for Bunji, sorry.

I made an effort to say hi to Jack.  You're right, he is definitely taper-friendly. 

[rerem]

I recall seeing the R4 as retailing somewhere at close to $1650,also that it had both HD and flashcard recording and I recall some kind of buffer geared to those late starts where you miss the first few notes,but probably just as handy as a way to beat any limit on wave filesize. 4 channel-24/96,good pre+phantom-under $2k. Granted,the Testa Rosa crowd is accustomed to perfect tech,and to a few $8k for a taping rig is acceptable. My sense is that a $3k rig is pretty high end-you'd have to record abot 100 shows to justify that. Edirol,with the R1 and R4 appears to be a first rate option in those price ranges. This stuff won't be a mass market,relative to something like a nomad but in a year R! at $400 and R4 at $1500 may be realistic

[Ed.]

if the r-4 was bit accurate, i bet a lot of tapers would be getting one.  actually i bet a lot of tapers still will get one.