Topic: Potential future JB3 competition...

[Nick in Edinboro]

Currently only offered in japan and only support for MP3, WMA, and ASF's.  With firmware upgrades however it could change.

It does have Optical inputs *and* outputs, is about the size of an iPod.

http://www.theregister.com/content/54/31943.html
http://www.iriverjapan.com/product.php?product=iHP-100

[1st set only]

I see WAV on that page...

[Styx Cover Band]

Looks pretty crazy, it even has a built in mic.

[Nick in Edinboro]

Shipping in america now.. all sorts of stats available here:
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iHP-100.asp

[EkoostikMace]

Shipping in america now.. all sorts of stats available here:
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iHP-100.asp

But the important stats (to us??) seem to be missing. It says realtime encoding but no mention of realtime WAV or any other specifics on the optical in options. I hope it doesn't force MP3 on incoming digi.

Oh wait... I see a manual. Time to read. Film at 11.

-Kevin

[Nick in Edinboro]

LOL.. nice picture thing Ekoostik

Wonder if it resamples that optical in for the optical out... Like I said, I know nothing.. just saw it and thought it was interesting

[EkoostikMace]

Okay.... from the manual (http://www.iriveramerica.com/download/iHP_100_EngUSA_030709aF.pdf) I see that you can choose what format to record to. They seem to refer to MP3 and WAV.

File length limits are very happily included:

Recording is automatically stopped if:
- The iHP-100's memory is full.
- when the recorded MP3 file size is over 195MB
- when the recorded WAV file size is over 795MB
- The recorded time is longer than 5 hours.
- The battery is low.

795 Megabytes.... that's about 90 minutes isn't it? I guess it depends on the bitrate.  Can anyone with some knowledge in this arena help out? It looks promising....

[Kindguy]

795 Megabytes.... that's about 90 minutes isn't it? I guess it depends on the bitrate.  Can anyone with some knowledge in this arena help out? It looks promising....

I'd be willing to guinea pig this unit if I thought it would support more than 90 min of wave recording.

Tech geeks what do you think? 795 MB seems small.

If it didn't work out the wife could use it while jogging.

[Nick in Edinboro]

Especially for something with a 10 gig HD.. wonder why they'd "cap it" like that..  Looking at it's power requirements, and provided it's not as finniky as the JB3, is external power easy?  I have no idea.. just a curiosity considering it has one 1800mah battery.

[InfiniteOhms]

ya ..  795 mb is not enough for most shows .. WTF? i can see the jb3's shutoff at 3 hrs (wav) and 10 hrs (mp3). I beleave it is not possible to make a wav more then 3:30 ... but other then that whats stoping it?

[Nick in Edinboro]

One potentially nice thing about this recorder is that it appears to use either NTFS or FAT because you can plug it in and utilize windows explorer to surf the drive, add files, etc..

JB3 you can't and I find their proprietary software to be "buggy" at BEST..

[EkoostikMace]

On the 795 limit one good sign is that the unit is firmware updatable. Even the JB3's had a whacky 15 minute cutoff originally.

[EkoostikMace]

I'd be willing to guinea pig this unit if I thought it would support more than 90 min of wave recording.

Tech geeks what do you think? 795 MB seems small.

If it didn't work out the wife could use it while jogging.

If I had the extra cash I'd guinea pig it myself but it's not an option. So I nominate you.

That limit should in theory be changed by firmware later since there's no valid reason I can think of for why it's doing that.

Hopefully we'll start to see a usergroup pop up somewhere and some useful feedback can start between tapers and their support department.

[DaryanLenz]

I think that if the jb3 ever wrote 24 bit firmware, who would even look at this unit...not me!

daryan

[Nick in Edinboro]

I think that if the jb3 ever wrote 24 bit firmware, who would even look at this unit...not me!

What?

[EkoostikMace]

What if iRiver writes 24 bit firmware? Are there other things that seem unapealing about the iRiver unit? 5v DC is it's recharge/external power source. It's supposed to have a longer run time. It is firmware updateable.

I just sent an email off to their tech department to see if there's a logical reason for the 795MB limit. I'll let you all know what they come back with (if anything). I CC'ed their sales department too.


And after reading the entire manual I see that the bitrate range is from 32K - 320K.

The battery is built in and they're claiming 16 hours playback. The power adapter is 5V DC, 2A. So a battery pack could be built to runn off of and/or recharge the internal battery.

[olyrc]

Okay.... from the manual (http://www.iriveramerica.com/download/iHP_100_EngUSA_030709aF.pdf) I see that you can choose what format to record to. They seem to refer to MP3 and WAV.

File length limits are very happily included:

Recording is automatically stopped if:
- The iHP-100's memory is full.
- when the recorded MP3 file size is over 195MB
- when the recorded WAV file size is over 795MB
- The recorded time is longer than 5 hours.
- The battery is low.

795 Megabytes.... that's about 90 minutes isn't it? I guess it depends on the bitrate.  Can anyone with some knowledge in this arena help out? It looks promising....

If it limits it to 795MB per WAV file, but has 10gig capacity, wouldn't it be more of a "tape flip" situation where you would just start a new file?  Thoughts?

[DaryanLenz]

The nomad is 5v, but a slight bitch to power extrenally.  The rpices on batteries should rop though as soon as a clone from some battery company is developed...can't be to far off!  Maybe this unit is promising, but I don't see how it is really al that relevant with the nomad 3 already out there and bigger in storage space, and firewire...i could go on!

Daryan

[Nick in Edinboro]

The rpices on batteries should rop though as soon as a clone from some battery company is developed...can't be to far off!

Who could make money producing a clone for an MP3 player?  Honestly?  Considering the fact they change from month to month, let alone year to year.  

These batteries are becoming harder and harder to find (notice how many online stores are out of stock).  I believe they'll stop producing the JB3 probably before this or the next year is out with a newer model to replace it.

with the nomad 3 already out there and bigger in storage space, and firewire...i could go on!

So with this logic, there should only be a DA-P1 out there for DAT's right?  Because I mean, it's better then the rest.

Past that, just look at your statement:

if the jb3 ever wrote 24 bit firmware, who would even look at this unit

That's an odd argument.. I could argue that if the price of DPA's dropped to $300 a mic I wouldn't even look at the Oktava's.. Know what I mean?  



I don't mean to bust your balls, but your just wrong on a few things    

[EkoostikMace]

Daryan,

Not to mention that there are varying levels of tapers and budgets out there. I'm probably shooting myself in the foot here but I don't tape for the same reasons as most.

I like to get a good quality tape that allows me to enjoy the show that I was at and also to give to friends. My gear now is an AT822 Stereo condenser straight into a Sony M1.

It's simple and if the mix is good and I'm in the middle of the PAs, I get really decent tapes. I'm happy with than. I'm looking to stay portable and be able to get geed quality and again stay under $1000 for the entire rig. No tapes and I'll be happier.

I don't need firewire. USB 2.0 is quicker. And bit for bit is obviously not in the picture. So while some wont give this unit a second look, others certainly will.

Just my $.02

-Kevin

[Lee]

Trogdor comes in the niiiiite!

Burninating the countryside!

Burninating the peasants!

Trogdor!!!!



+T for the schweet avatar

[zhianosatch]

Trogdor was a man
Ehh, he was a dragon man
Er, he was just a DRAGON
Um, but he was still
TROGDOOOOR!!!

[Lee]

forgot armen was all about the fantasy metal...





TROGDOOOOOOR!!!

[zhianosatch]

There are some who'd think the Trogdor song a rockin' tune... I don't know if I'd say that I'm one of 'em!
Actually, I'm a pretty picky motherfucker. Could you tape some of the bands I mentioned in the media trading section when they come through? hehe. They're on the top of my listening list right now... metal is just silly sometimes.

[InfiniteOhms]

here is a  VERY low quality mp3 clip from the very begining a tape of one of my favorite local bands (confusatron http://www.pageofterror.com ) before starting their set , this is vaguely on topic becaue: I taped it with a JB3  AND BECAUSE THEY ARE SINGING THE TROGDOR SONG which is the new topic of this thread  

[EkoostikMace]

If it limits it to 795MB per WAV file, but has 10gig capacity, wouldn't it be more of a "tape flip" situation where you would just start a new file?  Thoughts?

Yeah, that's right... but it's still an annoyance to have to worry about it. I mean the point of solid state (for me) is to get rid of the annoyances associated with tapes. The cover of the manual for this unit has a fancy little "Firmware Updateable" logo that someone in their marketing department got paid for so unless there's some crazy limitation that is forcing it to that size I'm guessing it will be changed.

-Kevin

[John Kelly]

I don't need firewire. USB 2.0 is quicker.

Um, no.  

[DaryanLenz]

I don't need firewire. USB 2.0 is quicker.

Um, no.  

not even close!

Daryan

[mterry]

what is the link to that website with the Trogdooor movie?

[John Kelly]

http://www.homestarrunner.com/

[zhianosatch]

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

i memorized it
armen

[EkoostikMace]

It's also on my sig along with the Trogdor game.

[mterry]

too much fun, thanks +t

[EkoostikMace]

Oh well... looks like the American arm isn't any help. I wonder what the best way to press on for more information is? Any suggestions? Here's their response:

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for contacting iRiver America.

Unfortunately I do not have any information regarding the limit mark on the line in feature or if we will be offering a player with more hard drive space.

We will post more information regarding these issues on our website as it becomes available.

Best regards,

Raul Montes
Customer Service
Technical Support
iRiver America, Inc.
www.iriveramerica.com
1-800-399-1799

[EkoostikMace]

  Thanks for that link. I'm not going through the User Forum and getting lots of input. Hopefully someone in there will know a bit more.

[greenone]

Oh well... looks like the American arm isn't any help. I wonder what the best way to press on for more information is? Any suggestions? Here's their response:

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for contacting iRiver America.

Unfortunately I do not have any information regarding the limit mark on the line in feature or if we will be offering a player with more hard drive space.

Well, that's just horrible customer service. I can understand him not knowing if they're going to be offering bigger players in the future, but if you ask a question about an existing feature,  they'd damn well better know the answer. I'd ask the same question and see if you can get someone else to answer the email. "I don't know" should NOT be an acceptable answer - this bozo needs to check with engineering and GET an answer...

[Nick in Edinboro]

Heh.. believe me when I say creative's support isn't any better

Thanks for the link to that review, it features some nice pics, and a semi-in depth review.. too bad he didn't test the optical in's and out's for bit perfectness

[EkoostikMace]

Well, that's just horrible customer service. I can understand him not knowing if they're going to be offering bigger players in the future, but if you ask a question about an existing feature,  they'd damn well better know the answer. I'd ask the same question and see if you can get someone else to answer the email. "I don't know" should NOT be an acceptable answer - this bozo needs to check with engineering and GET an answer...

Well to be fair, that's just the distribution and sales arm for the Americas. They seem to have a fairly well supported forum on their international site (http://www.iriver.com/community/). I'm just now starting to root around in there. Hopefully it will be more fruitful.

I have found out that the largest drive currently available with the same specs and size is a 15gig drive. There are 20 and 40 gigers out there that are a bit thicker so perhaps a slightly larger unit is in the works...

-Kevin

[greenone]

I guess so, but the one of the best ways to lose a customer is to not even give him options. Even something as simple as "You may find the answer in our online forum" or "Here's the contact info for engineer XYZ" or "Here's a link to a more detailed manual" is better than "I don't have any information".

Ok, rant over. I'm hoping the Apple folks step up and make the iPod recording-capable...the latest rumors say that the hardware is there but the software isn't yet...

[EkoostikMace]

Well, there have been some responses in the iRiver User Forum. If you're interested, here's the thread.

[EkoostikMace]

I actually bought the ihp today. I know it's expensive, but i am gambling that they fix the wav limit(or the bands i'm taping keep it short and sweet) and i think that everything else about the recorder seems excellent.

Well let us know what kind of luck you have with it. What's the rest of your setup?

[zhianosatch]

I will. I am actually just putting together a setup, and I hope to take it out for a test run in about 2 weeks.  I'm not new to trading shows, but i am new to taping so i might not be the best guinea pig but i'll do my best.  I'm getting some AT831's from SP, the SP battery box with bass roll-off, and I am trying to get ahold of a used AD-20.  I will be taping in medium sized clubs where stealth is a must.
Most of this i am getting based on the very helpful advice of people here, in the mic forum and elsewhere.  i still need to figure out all the cables i'll need and how to hook it all up, but I'm on the way.

one other thing - recording levels.  i'm not sure if i can adjust them on the fly using the IHP, should i get the level adjuster option on the battery box?

awesome news, i'll reply to your pm tonight!
no need for level adjusters when using the ad-20.

[greenone]

+T to guinea pigs!

[EkoostikMace]

sorry to be keeping this going all by myself...
i've been playing around with the iriver for a day now, so far so good.  i can set the recording format default to wav, so no need to worry about accidentally recording mp3.  recorded wavs save pretty fast, although i've only done some 20 minute tests, nothing too crazy.  
also, i'm about to upgrade the firmware, here's one of the upgrades:
 Optical Recording 48kHz  
- Record after automatic distinguish signal between 44.1kHz and 48kHz from Optical line out. (Sampling rate for recording can be set to 44.1kHz and 48kHz only.)  
 
Is that good?  I believe cds can only be burned at 44.1 so 48 recordings have to be resampled or something.

You'll see most DAT traders recording at 48kHz and SHNs from tapers are also usually at 48kHz. Yes it will be downsampled when creating an audio CD but I think the thinking is that you might as well get the quality as high as possible. Audio DVDs can possibly accept higher sampling? Anyone?

Keep up the work. If you record live or have the time to test it I'd really be interested in how ling it takes to stop a wav and then start another. Since the 795MB WAV limit would most likely end in the 80-90 minute area I'm wondering how long this "swap" should take.

FIRMWARE!!!!

-Kevin

[Simp-Dawg]

you've got the right idea, just set it up and record from any random source (mics in front of stereo, line out from stereo, etc) for as long as you can, see what happens when it gets to the limit...see how long it takes to stop/start a new recording, find out what the limit is as far as time goes, test battery life, etc.  best to do it with your whole rig so you also get practice setting up/tearing down, but will also work with just a line in to make sure it does record satisfactorily, ie. no pops/clicks, dropouts, etc.
keep us informed!  and good luck!

[zhianosatch]

Spaceman, the AD-20 you get will almost certainly put out 44.1.

[zhianosatch]

thanks Z, as always you come through with the knowledge  

Haha, I don't know much except for what I know. Uh. Yeah.

I'm in the process of a test recording right now(just some mp3's on my pc into the line in).  Good news is that i've recorded over 45 minutes so far and the battery just lost it's first bar(it's got 4) so i don't think power will be an issue.

one thing i do notice is that there are no recording level bars on the ihp - is this bad?

Yes.

i admit i no nothing about this function, or if it is absolutely necessary for a recording

It is. Absolutely.

, but i thought i'd mention it.  i was under the impression i'd need to check these to see how to "set" my ad-20, i hope there's a workaround...

You do need them, and it might just be an issue of the levels being so low that they're not showing up on your meters, or some preference settings. You need to look in the manual deep and hard, because not seeing levels when recording, especially from an analog source, which should be good friends with the recorder, is bad, bad news for live recording.
If this thing is a recorder, there have to be meters somewhere on the display. Scrounge that manual!

[zhianosatch]

I've read the manual a few times actually, it's pretty small and it doesn't have loads of detail.  The recording section is 3 pages long, and there is no mention of recording level meters anywhere, and i also don't see where they would be on the recording display of the actual ihp-100.  

To be honest, I haven't even seen a pic of this thing, as I don't like to go to crazy sites while at work...

so am i screwed?  do i need to return this sucker?  

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions yet, but we'll see.

can i set the ad-20 to a safe setting or something?

Not really, no...

  i hope there's a way around this, because i really like this ihp and i'd hate to part with it already...

No shit! But there's no way around the complete absence of level meters, either...

[EkoostikMace]

You should be able to control the levels with your mic pre-amp. You can use the headphones on the ihp-100 to hear the level adjustments. Perhaps a firmware upgrade in the future will put a level indicator screen on the unit.

[John R]

you've got the right idea, just set it up and record from any random source (mics in front of stereo, line out from stereo, etc) for as long as you can, see what happens when it gets to the limit...see how long it takes to stop/start a new recording, find out what the limit is as far as time goes, test battery life, etc.  best to do it with your whole rig so you also get practice setting up/tearing down, but will also work with just a line in to make sure it does record satisfactorily, ie. no pops/clicks, dropouts, etc.
keep us informed!  and good luck!

be able to do all this in the dark, well.

jr

[DaryanLenz]

Yeah, I have gotten to the point where I don't even look at the recorder anymore.  I watch the mini-me light show, and as long as they are bouncing yellows and occassional reds, I am hot!

Daryan

[zhianosatch]

see, the problem is, spaceman won't have any level indicators at ALL...

[zhianosatch]

Err... yeah, go for it if you want, but headphones are a really shitty ass way to monitor levels at a show, especially if you're stealthing...
I'd return it if it were me. But that's me. Go for it if you lke!

[zhianosatch]

If you plug everything in and run it, you'll find out soon enough.

[zhianosatch]

hehe, it's still bullshit

[jlykos]

My understanding is that I'll do my best to listen to the recording with some small headphones and then adjust the sound using the ad-20.  

If the music is amplified at all, you will not be able to hear a thing on the recorder with small headphones, even with the volume turned all the way up.  Let alone determining any sort of clipping in the recording.  The only thing you will accomplish is damaging your hearing, quite possibly badly.

If that is all you have and are set on it, leave the knobs on the AD-20 set at around 9:00 - 10:00 and hope for the best.  A small DAT (D100, M1) or pretty much any MD recorder would work out much, much better.  Look on ebay and see if you can get a portable MD recorder for like $50.  Any MD recorder will do if you throw the AD-20 in front of it.

[zhianosatch]

Jamie's words were slighty more eloquent than my "shitty ass way," but take our words for it: you need meters. NEED.

[jlykos]

just the other day i read a long post here about how annoying and crappy minidisc recording is.

Don't worry about that.  I don't think that MD is annoying or crappy; neither do an awful lot of people.  I think that its sonic fidelity is compromised over DAT, but then again, I have a stereo good enough that shows the differences.  If you can't hear the difference, then what is it to you?  Listen for yourself!

As Armen stated, MD is infinitely more useful over the iRiver because it has a level meter.  Set the levels to the suggested parameters (without a solid brickwall) of the MD recorder and you will be golden.

[zhianosatch]

Bottom line, it seems like the iRiver isn't going to serve you well in the long run. MD is damned reliable and has served me well - the only place I had problems was in the fininkiness of my home deck, which is unavoidable for a digital transfer.
Better to have an analog transfer than levels you can't observe, I think.

[joel]

see, the problem is, spaceman won't have any level indicators at ALL...

Kinda pointless now that he has ditched the unit, but for the sake of argument does the AD-20 not have any kind of level indicator?  Running a UA-5 you can just crank the levels til the peak light comes on then adjust down.  You can see the peak light from a mile away if the level goes up on you (as happens frequently with SBD levels when there is not a seperate recording mix on the SBD and the room starts to fill up forcing the soundman to crank up the levels).  The level meter on the JB3 is harder to monitor from afar.

[zhianosatch]

No level meter on the AD-20. Spaceman, if budget affords, keep the AD-20... serious...

[all_screwed_up]

Is that 795 MB "bug" (it seems like that :-) also happening to a Nomad Jukebox 3?

[all_screwed_up]

Is that 795 MB "bug" (it seems like that :-) also happening to a Nomad Jukebox 3?

I found the answer on the internet. The Nomad Jukebox 3 has a limit of 3 Gigabyte.

[jobseek2001]

Couple of updates that i got by pestering the iRiver people in Hong Kong:
1.  They like the idea of visible recording levels on the LCD and/or remote and will pass this on to their development team.

2.  They cannot up the 795M wav file limit via firmware, so that number is basically set in stone.


Not really a good thing, although maybe the 20 gig version coming out next year might have a higher limit.  Doesn't help me for October though:(

About the 795M limit: auto-open of new files is possible? GreatConcert01.Wav GreatConcert02.Wav etc etc
Together with visible levels and adjustability of the levels the device is usable?

[timP]

thinking about returning my 120.....
thank god for 14 day returns at Comp-usa
I really like it cause it is so small and sleek, just not what I need... thinking of going for the core-sounds PDA card that lets me record......

[momule]

the IHP 100 is only a 1.5 gb .


this is the one that would compare to The JB3,
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iHP-120.asp

Nick

[Savage Messiah]

So it's more or less unanimous that Sony has stopped producing tape transports.

So... what if Sony decided to produce an M1 that has a 20-40GB hard drive instead of a tape transport, with USB out and optical in/out in addition to the 7-pin, plus the recording time of the JB3? If nothing else, the iRiver demonstrates this can be done in an extremely small device. Minus the tape transport, the overall size of the device would be exactly between the M1/D100 and the iHP-xxx series with the combined best features of both. If made the exact size of the current M1, one might be able to fit in an A/D that is just as good as the AD-20?

Does anyone have an opinion on THAT - on whether Sony would actually ever get around to doing such a thing, or if anyone else would be capable or producing one in the next year or so?

I've talked with some people off dat-heads via email and they all agree that the technology exists to bring all those features together, just that no one has decided to do it.

[Kelso]

The iHP 120 seems very promising. If they add a meter (that's the only big problem for now) that would be a better solution than the jb3. It has mic input with until 20 dB of gain (not ideal but good as a backup), it can read ogg files (for the player's part that's something good), and it's definitely smaller.
I think I 'll wait a little till they update the firmware with the meter function (hoping they'll do it, and if they read their customer's forum they probably will)

[timP]

haven't returned my IRIVER... I like it as a player alot, and have gotten some nice recordings....The freakin file size limits are the only pisser of the whole unit, and no it doesn't start a new file when one is full. You have to re press record youself.........Sound Pro's is supposedly working on a in-line meter reader, and until they work it out or IRIVER puts out level adding software, I'm using a MD with level meters.....

[Kelso]

>Couple of updates that i got by pestering the iRiver people in Hong Kong:
>1.  They like the idea of visible recording levels on the LCD and/or remote >and will pass this on to their development team.
>2.  They cannot up the 795M wav file limit via firmware, so that number is >basically set in stone.
>Not really a good thing, although maybe the 20 gig version coming out next >year might have a higher limit.  Doesn't help me for October though:(

haven't see that. Good news. The question is how long will it take? I don't care about the limitation. I don't tape concert. Does someone know if it's bit-acurate with a an ad20?

The new version (40 Go, color lcd) won't be really necessary (the color would probably suck up the battery, and 20 Go is enough, even for tapers . Could be useful for a long trip away from any computer (20 Go means 31 hr of wav 16/44.1 recording if I'm right).

[RJPass]

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?DPNo=296204

For those of you that want to test, sound professionals sells it for $400.  The URL i pasted, sell it for $340, with Free FedEX Shipping  =)

Just thought i'd pass it on...

[BobW]

So it's more or less unanimous that Sony has stopped producing tape transports.

So... what if Sony decided to produce an M1 that has a 20-40GB hard drive instead of a tape transport, with USB out and optical in/out in addition to the 7-pin, plus the recording time of the JB3? If nothing else, the iRiver demonstrates this can be done in an extremely small device. Minus the tape transport, the overall size of the device would be exactly between the M1/D100 and the iHP-xxx series with the combined best features of both. If made the exact size of the current M1, one might be able to fit in an A/D that is just as good as the AD-20?

Does anyone have an opinion on THAT - on whether Sony would actually ever get around to doing such a thing, or if anyone else would be capable or producing one in the next year or so?

I've talked with some people off dat-heads via email and they all agree that the technology exists to bring all those features together, just that no one has decided to do it.

Sony, being Sony, could have done this three years ago.
There's a HD Recorders thread around here somewhere, and one on the new Hi-MD "with TEETH" ......

[Sharky]

The new Philips HDD100 has an optical Line-in. Doesn't look like it supports the WAV format though. Maybe through firmware?

http://reviews.cnet.com/Philips_HDD100/4505-6490_7-21129460.html?tag=pdtl-list