Topic: Sound Devices 722 vs Korg MR 1000

[ghellquist]

Yep I agree it sounds like hype but have you HEARD it yet for yourself? We do own the products & we have recorded before in PCM & WE all hear the difference, so I ask again HAVE YOU heard either of these recorders yet?

I have heard a little but not enough to make any judgement yet. It will come in good time after a true AB test.

But what PCM are you comparing to? I mean, an Edirol R1 is supposedly 24 bit PCM, but does not sound very good.

From what I have seen so far, the MR1000 seems to give quite a lot for a decent price. It does not have top-of-the-class mic amps though. The converter is a rather low-priced chip, not necessarily a bad thing as such, but still. My bet is that top-quality equipment will beat rounds around it. I hold my judgement though til I have heard a true AB test.

Gunnar

[Nick's Picks]

The hype and fanboyism is getting deep and thick! The hype about guns, bullets and battle is just sad.

Megahertz, not gigahertz.

24 bits x 96000 samples/second = 2304000 bits/second

Sheesh.

yup, my typo.
still, its a shitload more samples.  And even if i'm dupped by DSD, the worst is that i've got a recorder that I like, I think it sounds good and I enjoy using it, well, that ain't so bad.
I can live w/it.

[cshepherd]

dont overlook the fact dsd is a more deeper sound arena which allows more info in a split second to be rec than pcm.
that means more bits available to capture the sound each second. much more.
result is audible. piss on decimated anything even if pcm.
why rec now with decimated formula when dsd is smoking with more bits available for capture.

in battle pcm is a pistol 6 rounds, dsd is machine gun, in battle performance is everything.
want results, take the dsd to battle.

g

Dude, enough of your John Wayne BS about DSD.  Don't bring a stick to a gunfight.  I'll tie your dsd machine to a freakin' whippin' post and torture it with a 30 year old Nagra reel to reel.  It's still digital.  Let me know when you make your way back to the analog world and then we'll see.

Chris

[it-goes-to-eleven]

yup, my typo.
still, its a shitload more samples.

Explain please.

[Nick's Picks]

2.8 million samples per second is a lot more than 96000 per second.
16x the number of measurements per second is a much "higher resolution" picture, imo.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

2.8 million samples per second is a lot more than 96000 per second.

The bandwidth is the same.

[carlbeck]

2.8 million samples per second is a lot more than 96000 per second.
16x the number of measurements per second is a much "higher resolution" picture, imo.

Now. Give a mathematical proof on how this affects sound!

You know, in the real world, things are not quite as simple.

Gunnar

I keep saying this, until you hear it do not pass judgement. Those of us who own it like it but yet those of you have never heard it are just fighting it without any real reason too. None of your assumptions are based on anything other than your own unwillingness to believe that Korg could somehow produce a good product. You guys all sound like it's impossible to believe the world is in fact round.

[Nick's Picks]

I'm just looking at it simplistic terms.

if 96,000 kHz / second is better than 44,100. 
then why wouldnt 2.8million be any less?

is a 35mm camera better than 110?
If sample rate is irrelevant...they why record higher than redbook in the fist place?


I dont need to understand it to embrace it.  I just like the way it sounds.  I think its better than my PCM masters of the past.

I dont think its the "2nd coming" or anything. but I like it ... a lot.
I think the meat of my recordings lie in the ApogeeMMP ...personally.
I'm of the opinion that the analog stage is the most important...., thats why I am also such a fan of the Oade mod 660.  I dont care what resolution it is, it just sounds great.
same deal here for me. 

it boils down to does DSD mastering sound better than PCM mastering.
to me...yes.
Cheskey seems to agree as well.

[TNJazz]

Or maybe the process of having to listen to the recording on the giant ipod that is the dsd recording deck is subconsiously biasing you to think it is better.

Nope not even close, just proves that you haven't heard it yet. Sorry but that is a ridiculous assumption. I dither mine down to 24 bit & listen to it on my playback system which consists of:

MacIntosh MA 6450 Amp
DH Labs Air Matrix Silver IC
Denon 2900 Universal player
ZU Cable Wax Shotguns
B&W CDM1-SE speakers

I am pretty confident I am hearing everything with this system & it has nothing to do with a giant i-pod. I also would invite anyone over to my house to do a true blind test of source material & challenge them to not hear the obvious DSD difference.

agreed.  I do the same most of the time - dithering down to 24/96 through the D/A of my Metric Halo to the studio monitors and say what you want but the differences are IMMEDIATELY obvious, even with that method.  Maybe they sprinkled some pixie dust on the Audiogate software, but whatever it is - it sounds much better than straight PCM.

[boyacrobat]

diss me all you like
dsd dsd dsd dsd dsd
get it       im not the Duke im the alarm clock.

ill turn off now,sleep in, wake up when ready.

g

[Nick's Picks]

if 96,000 kHz / second is better than 44,100. 
then why wouldnt 2.8million be any less?

You're trying to say a dozen is more than 12.

your loosing me.
I'm saying ... 2.8million is a greater number than 96thousand.
thats all.
and if you put it in the context of measurement...does the ruler w/the most "notches" make the most accurate measurement?
yes.

[carlbeck]

it sounds much better than straight PCM.

What are you comparing? Please elaborate! / G

My reference point has been my Oade Modified Fostex FR2 as well as the numerous 722, 671, 660 recordings I have heard over the years. I have personally been recording 24 bit on my Fostex since it was first introduced.

[carlbeck]

My reference point has been my Oade Modified Fostex FR2 as well as the numerous 722, 671, 660 recordings I have heard over the years. I have personally been recording 24 bit on my Fostex since it was first introduced.

Well. I have never said anything but that my Lavry Blue sounds better then my 722. Never used an FR2, modded or not. See, a true AB comparison is not quite as easy. And the pixie dust in the DSD may not be only due to DSD.

Once more, anything less than a true AB comparison will be, well, less.

It is a good thing that you like your MR1000, no less, but this does not mean that the only solution to all the problems in the world is DSD.

G.

Quite frankly no one has mentioned that there is a problem with PCM let alone the solution being DSD. There are users like myself who have the technology & enjoy it. We seem to have to defend ourselves against against remarks such as yours above. We are happy using the technology, we all feel it was money well spent. I am not trying to force my views on you as you are to me. No offense but I have recorded in PCM for a long time & I was pleased with it until I heard my recordings with DSD. I know the tapes I produce, I have been doing this over 10 years & while it may not be a justified comp in YOUR eyes it is in mine, nothing has changed in my rig except for the recorder. I am quite confident in what I hear, until you try the technology yourself you have no right to force your views down my throat of how valid my opinions are. I am sorry I don't mean to sound like a dick but some of you have been jerk offs during this whole thread & it has become one big pissing match. I have been around a while & many people here have heard my tapes, I am not suggesting the world  should now go buy DSD but if you want an idea of the difference go download any of my shows & then let me send you samples from the shows we just did. Until someone steps up to the plate with their pcm recorder & we run a comp that pleases all of you geeks then that is all you can do. At this point I am done with this thread, I will not waste any more energy explaining myself & what I hear on my system until some of you decide to come to my house & hear my recordings on my system or try it out for yourselves. Enjoy your PCM, as I will my DSD.

[Nick's Picks]

and if you put it in the context of measurement...does the ruler w/the most "notches" make the most accurate measurement?
yes.

Well, in my place we run 230V in the wall. It has to be better then 110V? What we are trying to say that some comparisons are not giving any useful information.  G.
[/quote]

but that has no relative merit.
I thought the ruler metaphor was pretty spot on.

[carlbeck]

I am not trying to force my views on you as you are to me.ystem or try it out for yourselves. Enjoy your PCM, as I will my DSD.

Well, in that case that makes two of us. I have never tried to force any view on you. But go back and read your own posts, and then say who is truly one-sided.

G.

Nope, you are correct, I was a little hard on you but that being said I am not one sided in the fact that I have owned & used both technologies. The first time I heard Nick's DSD recording I was blown away, then everything else he has recorded. Then I purchased the MR-1000 that doubles the sample rate & I am convinced. I am pleased where I am, if I want to record 24 or 16 bit I can, either way if DSD goes like Beta Max I am covered with this deck.