Topic: Sound Devices 722 vs Korg MR 1000

[trajhip2000]

your loosing me.
I'm saying ... 2.8million is a greater number than 96thousand.
thats all.
and if you put it in the context of measurement...does the ruler w/the most "notches" make the most accurate measurement?
yes.

I'm not disputing what anyone says they hear (and I have not heard dsd yet), but we should know by now that this kind of analogy isn't valid, since we're not talking about an analog ruler are we? AFAIK no one has come up with a solid, widely accepted explanation for why Nyquist is no longer valid and higher sampling rates are better - mostly it seems to be conjecture about the negative sonic impact of anti-aliasing filters percolating down into the audible range or some such. Now, given the number of people that claim to hear a difference I am more than willing to believe that there is something going on (and I do record at 96K "just in case"), but I don't believe a "ruler with more notches" explanation is supported by current digital signal theory. Having said that, you are certainly under no obligation to do more than say "this is what I hear" - in fact, since I don't think many of us have any real fundamental expertise in this area (incl. me) it's probably safer to avoid trying to come up with explanations anyways.

Steve

[Nick's Picks]

What Carl or I hear on our systems is only definitive to us alone.  we are firmly entrenched in our camps.., as we tag team technology.

I'm not going to say one box sounds better than another.  Like I said, the preamp is key.  if the mr1k had the exact same preamps as the 7xx boxes, you bet your ass you'd hear the difference.
but...it doesn't...so you can't really do a good comparison.

so, we need an outboard preamp (covered), splitter cables (covered) and then a DSD recorder and take your pick of the PCM recorders...which are not all equal either.  these Korg DSD decks can't be the end-all be-all of DSD converters...so putting up the ADC of a $4k PCM recorder (like a SD box) against a sub $1000 DSD recorder (as in the MR1)...its not really apples and apples either.  But if it holds its own..or surpasses..., well..I believe that speaks volumes.  no pun intended.

double blind tests..
I hate them.  they always prove me wrong.  so in the long run, I'm happy just being happy w/what I hear.  Take the r9 vs v3 comp for example.  that was painful!  How can a 24bit converter...tested to be around 15bits of usable information...best something like a V3?
hog wash!

yet, I picked that as my favorite too.

[Nick's Picks]

well said.

I use the ruler metaphor because that was the argument used in favor of 24bit recording and high sample rates over DAT.  Lots of feet draggin there too...but they are all born again High-Rez PCM guys these days aren't they?

[Colin Liston]

Sometimes I drink the whole bottle of Robitussin. 

[Nick's Picks]

LOL

[TNJazz]

it sounds much better than straight PCM.

What are you comparing? Please elaborate! / G

I have been recording the same band mixed by the same engineer in the same room for over 4 years now (a dozen or so shows a year) and I recently substituted the DSD recorder in the chain.  The difference to me is like night and day.

Is it a valid comp in a technical sense?  No, but like carlbeck says I know what my ears are telling me based on my past body of work.  I've been recording live music since the late 80's and have made the progression from analog to digital to 24 bit digital and now to DSD.  I feel like my past work had been pretty consistent, and now it's taken a huge jump upwards (that's what MY ears are telling me.)

I have a 744 sitting on my desk that could easily go out on all of these gigs but I've become enchanted with what I'm hearing from the Korg, so the SD is getting a bit dusty for any 2 channel work we do.  I will be taking it out for the next show to do a true comp (mics -> Sonosax -> split -> 744t/MR1000) but I haven't had the chance yet.

Will that convince the naysayers that DSD is better than PCM?

Don't know.

Don't care.

I'm curious for myself though, and I will gladly share the comp so everyone else can make up their own mind.  Who knows?  Maybe my mind will change in a true head to head battle.

Until then, I'm in the DSD camp with Nick and Carl.

[F.O.Bean]

it sounds much better than straight PCM.

What are you comparing? Please elaborate! / G

I have been recording the same band mixed by the same engineer in the same room for over 4 years now (a dozen or so shows a year) and I recently substituted the DSD recorder in the chain.  The difference to me is like night and day.

Is it a valid comp in a technical sense?  No, but like carlbeck says I know what my ears are telling me based on my past body of work.  I've been recording live music since the late 80's and have made the progression from analog to digital to 24 bit digital and now to DSD.  I feel like my past work had been pretty consistent, and now it's taken a huge jump upwards (that's what MY ears are telling me.)

I have a 744 sitting on my desk that could easily go out on all of these gigs but I've become enchanted with what I'm hearing from the Korg, so the SD is getting a bit dusty for any 2 channel work we do.  I will be taking it out for the next show to do a true comp (mics -> Sonosax -> split -> 744t/MR1000) but I haven't had the chance yet.

Will that convince the naysayers that DSD is better than PCM?

Don't know.

Don't care.

I'm curious for myself though, and I will gladly share the comp so everyone else can make up their own mind.  Who knows?  Maybe my mind will change in a true head to head battle.

Until then, I'm in the DSD camp with Nick and Carl.

+T Dirk, thanks for the informative post brotha! What you said about your recordings getting better/more consistently is something I can def relate too. after getting the v3 my tapes got consistently better. once i ditched the v3 and got a 722, I was simply amazed at how consistently I was pulling not only decent/good tapes but I'm talking Amazingly crisp/clear recordings for many shows in a row. It's kind of hard to blieve that IN MY EARS, that my recordings can even get any better, well, until DSD. If you said they get even more consistently amazing, well then, I HAVE TO try out one of these Korgs...

so the consensus is to run a preamp in front of both teh MR-1 and the MR-1000 has anyone been impressed with just mics>MR1k

[TNJazz]

so the consensus is to run a preamp in front of both teh MR-1 and the MR-1000 has anyone been impressed with just mics>MR1k

Jury's still out on that.  The two shows that we test ran with the Korg preamp turned out quite nicely I think.  The last show I tested with the Sonosax in line didn't sound quite as crisp and defined to me, but I can attribute much of that to the band.  I'm waiting for a show with a band I'm more familiar with before I decide, but certainly a dedicated outboard pre is never a bad idea.

The internal pre is not bad at all though.  Maybe a bit thin but still very usable as an all in one box (this is what I was looking for).  It's very hot and overloads easily, so you have to run pads and/or inline attenuators for safety.  Going line in from an outboard pre is not an issue at all though, only the mic in is scorching hot.

Here's a show with the Korg preamp:  http://www.archive.org/details/oteil2007-06-02

I also have a couple others I could post samples of at some point.

[Nick's Picks]

I wasn't at all disappointed with what I heard out of the mr1k straight up.  Its a little thin maybe...or just super, super clean.  no "meat" at all, but not in a bad way.  didn't sound like a zefiro inbox or anything.

[soundoc]

I am the fool who started this thread.  Interesting reading all the way through--some light and some heat that's for sure!  I know that when listening to professionally recorded native DSD on a higher end stereo that there is a phenomenal difference compared to dithered redbook--that my ears and brain are confident of.  Just sounds a lot more like music and a lot less "fatiguing" after listening for a while.  Whether that makes Korg or a more state of the art PCM machine like 722 the recording medium of choice now or for the future clearly subject to the controversy here...

Listened to a few samples of the above--sounds good to me overall!  As am very interested in "one box" solution as outlined at start of the post, issue of mic pre amp overload is of importance to me on Korg MR 1000.  Would potentially be using this with pair of Earthworks TC 20 omni condensors in a Jecklin ("baffle") configuration where channel matching is critical.  Mikes are "hot" unto themselves, but never had to attenuate with my current home studio oriented gear.   I dont have a portable mike preamp at present. 

Technical questions then:

1) What do you use for attenuation for louder shows? 
2) Being largely unfamiliar with mic attenuators/pads, can someone tell me how closely these tend to be "matched".  Slight channel variances in signal from mikes in baffle recordings really throw the whole technique into the dumper.  Seems like the circuitry in these is pretty simple and I suspect not something to create a lot of signal variance or degradation, but I am interested in practical experience.

Thanks

Soundoc

[flintstone]

I have been recording the same band mixed by the same engineer in the same room for over 4 years now (a dozen or so shows a year) and I recently substituted the DSD recorder in the chain.  The difference to me is like night and day.

This statement is much more compelling than "I've got one and I like it."  Thanks for sharing, and +T!

I think I understand the advantages of DSD, but I'm concerned about the Korg preamps for the type of recording I do (quiet, low SPL, where it's easy to hear the pre's self-noise).   Using an external pre makes sense, even if it complicates the setup.

Flintstone

[Nick's Picks]

yea, that is certainly the best evidence in support of the product that I've heard as well.  the consistency of the same band/room/eng is key in this. 
But, honestly...you know what your recordings/stereo sound like, you know when things get "better", even marginally.  In your case, its even more instantly apparent.
good post.
+T

[MattD]

and if you put it in the context of measurement...does the ruler w/the most "notches" make the most accurate measurement?
yes.

NO! A ruler with more "notches" will make the more precise measurement. </engineer>

[ts]

Can an MR1 and a 722 be run out of a V3 at the same time, still using the AD in the 722 Or run analog out of 722 to MR1? Just trying to decide if it might be worth running an MR1 not only for backup but for future playback, whenever that happens.

[WiFiJeff]

Data:

I ran an A/B test yesterday with the MR-1000 and the SD722, though not the one I planned, as my splitter cables have not yet arrived (backlog at SP, still waiting).  Instead, I ran an MP-2 (also SD) into both boxes line-in.  The setup was an AKG C426B (Blumlein) about 4-5 feet in front of a string quartet, into the MP-2, the balanced outs to the 722 and the tape-out to the MR-1000.  I did some level checks ahead of time, but the MP-2 knobs are not ganged and I ended up having to boost the right track on both tapes 2.5-3 dB.  Levels on the 722 ended up just right (the line-in settings were +2 dB), the MR-1000 tape had to be boosted aa additional 3.3 dB overall to get roughly the same levels.  I taped at 24/192 on the 722, and 5.6 Mb/S on the Korg, converted to 24/192 in AudioGate using the sharp filter (still had visible but inaudible hf gunk, but no longer an editing problem, as much reduced).  I then did all editing (level changes, fades, joins and dithering) in WaveLab 5.0.  I then burned CDs of both and also DVD-As at 24/192.

I am sending the DVDs to a friend with high end stereo, all I can comment on is the CD downsampling and dithering to 16 bits.

I didn't expect a big difference (I guess the 722 preamp would trump the MR-1000 using just splitter cables from the mic, but I expected the A/D to be only very marginally different, maybe not even audibly so).  But I have to say I am a reluctant convert to DSD at this point.  "Reluctant" because the 722 is a more reliable brick, a totally secure system that has never let me down.  I am still worried about the MR-1000 since the hard drive error I had on my first run, the mic-in overloads with DPAs or Josephsons even on the quiet classical stuff I tape (and I'll A/B the 722 v. MR-1000 preamps next week with a brass quintet, if my splitter arrive).  The violin sound on the Korg tape is just smoother and more natural, less edgy.  Now I've known my first impressions to change over time, so I'm not jumping 100% on board yet, but so far the DSD wins and the difference is not marginal. 

Of course, if my high-end hifi friend tells me its all in my head, that's yet another story.

Jeff