Topic: Sonosax SX-R4

[H₂O]

Thought I'd start this thread for the discussion of the up and coming 8-track Sonosax SX-R4 recorder.

See the following links for more info:

Specs and diagrams from Sonosax:
http://www.sonosax.com/SXR4/SXR4.html

Videos from AES:
http://www.gearwire.com/sonosax-new-products-aes-vienna.html

From the Sonosax Website:
Preliminary Informations   

• Compact and Leight Weight 8 tracks Recorder on Hard Disk and CF Card
• The ideal companion for classical music and on location multi-track recording
• Recording capabilities:  44,1 up to 192kHz @ 24bits and 16 bits ( dithering )
• Up to 8 tracks on the HD plus 2 tracks on the CF Card
• Small and robust construction
• Friendly user interface, easy maintenance
• Battery or external DC operated

 
KEY FEATURES 
 

• 4x electronically balanced Mic/Line Input, XLR connectors
• 2x unbalanced adjustable Line input on TA3 connector
• 48V Phantom for Mic power
• Pre LF Cut for rough wind conditions - PAD - Phase reversal
• 2 Gain range and trim Gain control on the front
• Channel linking of channel 1- 2  and/or channels 3-4 or all (1 to 4)
• Limiter on each channel
• 4 x AES Digital input ( 8channels )
• TimeCode In & Out, all format
• NTSC  Pull Up / Pull Down 0.1%
• Wckl and Video Sync In
• Wckl Sync Out
• Unbalanced Stereo Line Outputs, on TA3 connector and Mini Jack for camera Link or additional monitoring
• Headphone out on 1/4" Stereo Jack
• Machined aluminum panel and carbon fiber housing
• Dimensions: 176 x 44 x 138 mm / 6,93" x 1,75" x 5,43"
• Weight aprox 800 grams ( 1,76 lbs ) with batteries
• Powered by four AA batteries or external 6 - 15 VDC

Estimated price:             aprox Euro 3'500 -  USD 4'500 - CHF 5'600
Estimated deliveries:      automn 2007
 

[OFOTD]

Just sticking my head in on this thread.  I've been following this new recorder for some time now.  Very very interesting.

[NOLAfishwater]

Cool. 8tr recording? So I guess this is going to give the 744 a run for its money. If you build it they will come.

[boojum]

Sound Devices has to respond to this challenge.  Surely they are working on something.  Well, hopefully.  The SX-R4 does look like a really sweet piece of hardware: legendary Swiss craftsmanship, all the bells and whistles you could wish for, well almost, and compact.  Good price, too.

SD, are you listening???

[jlykos]

Each one of those Sonosax units is handmade because it is so small.  It will be awesome and incredible and all that, but I think that I will pass at the $4,500 price point.  I read somewhere else that it would cost 4,000 Euro, which will push it well above the $4,500 range with the terrible exchange rate right now.  Still, 8 tracks of recording ability at that size and level of craftsmanship is something to look at.

[boojum]

The Sonosax home page says US$4,500.  Check it out.

L8R

[H₂O]

Here's a pic from the 7x team board that Jaledu posted from the Nagrit website.  The SX-R4 is the bottom unit, the top unit is the soon to be released SX-M32 which is a 3 to 2 channel mixer (I guess to compete with the SD 302)

[JD]

Just checking in so I can follow this thread.

I'm  planning on upgrading to a 744 around this time next year. If the SX-R4 turns out to be in the same league, I might go that way instead.

Way too early to tell.

[JD]

Looking at this block diagram, it looks like this will only have two channels with pre-amps.? Was hoping it would have four.

http://www.sonosax.com/SXR4/SX-R4.pdf

[wbrisette]

Regardless of how many pre-amps, Sonosax has fallen behind, much like Nagra. Both are scrambling now to produce recorders/mixers that can compete with the digital non-linear offerings of SD, Zaxcom, and Aaton. This isn't a bad thing, more competition is good, but when you look at 4/8 channel hard drive recorders Sonosax is about 5 years behind. SD was able to pull off getting into the game on price/features, Nagra has so far failed pretty miserably (but you can never count them out).

Because a lot of these units are used in films and wireless mics are starting to be used more and more, the emphasis recently has been on increasing channels using line inputs. You have the Cantar with 8 tracks, Zaxcom with 8/10 tracks (16 coming later this year), and so I would expect SD to have something in the works to compete with the growing number of channels.


Wayne

[H₂O]

Looking at this block diagram, it looks like this will only have two channels with pre-amps.? Was hoping it would have four.

http://www.sonosax.com/SXR4/SX-R4.pdf

Note in the diagram that shows inputs 1 or 3 are top and 2 or 4 are bottom.  My interpretation is that to save space on the diagram the combined the inputs just on the diagram.  If you look at the diagrams of the physical unit there are 4 XLR inputs on the left side and that all 4 input have lowcut, 48V, etc switches. 

The other two analog inputs are unbalanced and on the right side of the unit on a TO3 connector.


Left side diagram:
http://www.sonosax.com/SXR4/sxr4_left.jpg

Right side diagram:
http://www.sonosax.com/SXR4/sxr4_right.jpg

[JasonSobel]

Regardless of how many pre-amps, Sonosax has fallen behind, much like Nagra.

while the SX-R4 is just comign out now, Sonosax has had the MiniR82 out for a while now, which is a very compact 8 channel HD (& CF) recorder.  if it wasn't so expensive, I'm sure a lot more tapers would be using one.  but if we're talking about Nagra, Zaxcom, and Aaton, then the MiniR82 certainly is well within the price range of those units.  the thing with the MiniR82 is that you need a custom break-out cable for all the inputs.  my guess is that there is more demand for a deck with standard XLR inputs, and thats why they're coming out with this now.

[wbrisette]

while the SX-R4 is just comign out now, Sonosax has had the MiniR82 out for a while now, which is a very compact 8 channel HD (& CF) recorder.  if it wasn't so expensive, I'm sure a lot more tapers would be using one.

I had forgotten about that unit. You're right though, the price keeps tapers away from it, while the size and breakout cable keep it from being used much on-location. Regardless I think we're going to continue seeing more and more channels being added to recorders, unfortunately I think most will be line inputs because channels are being added for all the wireless units being used.

Wayne

[WiFiJeff]

Regardless of how many pre-amps, Sonosax has fallen behind, much like Nagra.

while the SX-R4 is just comign out now, Sonosax has had the MiniR82 out for a while now, which is a very compact 8 channel HD (& CF) recorder.  if it wasn't so expensive, I'm sure a lot more tapers would be using one.  but if we're talking about Nagra, Zaxcom, and Aaton, then the MiniR82 certainly is well within the price range of those units.  the thing with the MiniR82 is that you need a custom break-out cable for all the inputs.  my guess is that there is more demand for a deck with standard XLR inputs, and thats why they're coming out with this now.

I absolutely love the MiniR82.  Inputs 3&4 (either as line-in or digital-in) are on a standard 1/8" stereo plug.  Mic-in is on unusual Binder connectors and for digital-in channels 5-8 you need to wire the dongle that comes naked with the machine.  Sonosax was of minimal help in doing this, or getting powering accessories, or answering questions, or servicing the machine or upgrading firmware.  Judging from the time delay between sending them emails and getting responses, their tech guys must be located well outside the solar system.  While I expect the SX-R4 to be a great machine, the service issue will keep Sound Devices far ahead for many users, I expect.  But the only small unit at all comparable to the MiniR82 is the Sony D-1, and Sony's response to D-1 users needing help is also pretty lame.

By the way, the MiniR82 was announced in early 2005 to be coming out in the fall of 2005, but wasn't out until fall of 2006. So I wonder exactly when we'll see the SX-R4 ship.

Jeff

[SonicSound]

So I wonder exactly when we'll see the SX-R4 ship slip.

[mmedley.]

Regardless of how many pre-amps, Sonosax has fallen behind, much like Nagra. Both are scrambling now to produce recorders/mixers that can compete with the digital non-linear offerings of SD, Zaxcom, and Aaton. This isn't a bad thing, more competition is good, but when you look at 4/8 channel hard drive recorders Sonosax is about 5 years behind. SD was able to pull off getting into the game on price/features, Nagra has so far failed pretty miserably (but you can never count them out).

Because a lot of these units are used in films and wireless mics are starting to be used more and more, the emphasis recently has been on increasing channels using line inputs. You have the Cantar with 8 tracks, Zaxcom with 8/10 tracks (16 coming later this year), and so I would expect SD to have something in the works to compete with the growing number of channels.


Wayne

Well said Wayne. I am not holding my breath for Sonosax. They "announce" WAAAAAAY to prematurely, and usually fail to deliver on-time and not to mention in the support sector. I bet I have sent them 5 emails in the past 2-3 years, and did not get a single response regarding my SX-M2, Minir82 questions/availability, etc. I wonder how many MiniR82's actually sold? Certainly couldn't be that many. I think it is a horrible design for its intended use (Film/ENG/etc). Nothing would irritate me more than having to deal with an iPod sized recorder with a enormous breakout cable while in the field working. However, I bet it sounds real nice which probably makes it worth it! I find it funny that the SX-R4 can be run off 4AA batteries. I bet that last all of 20 minutes. 

[WiFiJeff]

I find it funny that the SX-R4 can be run off 4AA batteries. I bet that last all of 20 minutes. 

Battery life was one of the pleasant surprises with the MiniR82.  It also uses 4 AA cells, and using line-in I get almost 5 hours with 2700 MaH NiMH cells, just under 4 using phantom power.  If the SX-R4 is a miniR82 with standard connectors it might get similar time, in any case way better than the bigger boxes (Fostex, Marantz) that use 8 AAs (or the internal batteries of the MT2496, Korg MR-1, etc).  Most folks will want to add external power, when I use a small lithium Power Bank or Power Stick I get more like 10-12 hours, no need to touch the thing.  Of course, you'll have to figure out how to get the right connector wired, polarity, etc, without much fast help from Sonosax.

Jeff

[oleg]

about the 82  , its nice device  but more for sfx or for work with external mixer , not really stand alone device  for normal film job .
i have a feeling it came out as something to check the water and beeing a platform for the current products they shipping  now+ internal recorder for their big mixers .
the only thing i dont like on the sax is that not recording all the cahnnels to cf card  what become a drag to hook the recorder every time to computer make the down loads . hope that would change with the time .

[CQBert]

Dear XXXXXXX,

at this time we are also correcting our current US pricing  due to the exchange rates. But this is for currently available products.
The USD has dropped quite a lot recently but it is slightly raising again since a few days.
Of course I am not a Master in economy but I do believ that the USD will raise again ( it is kept artificially too low actually because of some political reasons).

We will see how it will be in next February when the SX-R4 will be launched ...

Kind regards

Pierre Blanc
SONOSAX

[JD]

We will see how it will be in next February when the SX-R4 will be launched ...

 

[wbrisette]

To all those who said it would slip from a fall '07 release +T! 

[SClassical]

Also due to the weak US$, the price is reaching $5000 (may go even higher next year if the $ still fall)

There is a video of it here:

http://www.gearwire.com/sonosax-new-products-aes-vienna.html

Anyone know if this machine can go mic-in for 4 channels or it needs an external preamp for the 3rd and 4th channel?

[CQBert]

It is supposed to have 4 powered Pre-Amps...  and 2 line-in

See Sonosax site for more details...  http://sonosax.com/index2.html

Final specs still not 100%.. 

They say FEB but who knows...

CQBert

[CQBert]

Just got a news letter...

There are updates and prices....

[meatling]

Just got a news letter...

There are updates and prices....

You beat me to it  Bottom line: The SX-R4 will be launched REAL SOON NOW and it will be more expensive than originally planned, i.e. CHF 5,850 instead of 5,600 as is still announced on their web site. That's $5,700 USD as of today.

[amfortas2006]

I bet I have sent them 5 emails in the past 2-3 years, and did not get a single response regarding my SX-M2, Minir82 questions/availability, etc. I wonder how many MiniR82's actually sold? Certainly couldn't be that many. I think it is a horrible design for its intended use (Film/ENG/etc). Nothing would irritate me more than having to deal with an iPod sized recorder with a enormous breakout cable while in the field working. However, I bet it sounds real nice which probably makes it worth it! I find it funny that the SX-R4 can be run off 4AA batteries. I bet that last all of 20 minutes. 

I have the Minir82, and I played dice with the battery last week and recorded a concert that was almost 3,5 hours long  with just one set of 4AA batteries (using an ORTF Schoeps CMC64) and internal minir82 preamps. That was with SWISS BATTERIES (2700 mAh). Wouldnt try that with VARTA batteries tough. Those died on me once after 30 min (brand new, bought that day)...

The breakout cable from the MiniR is actually quite small, just expencive and one cant really buy it around every corner...


And about SX-M2, I sent an eMail last week, and they answered in 3 days saying it is discontinued. Maybe it was just luck that they answered to me? And bad luck they dont have any more m2-s...

Anyone knows what other product can match the SX-M2 in size and quality?

[SClassical]

Some really nice pictures here:

http://www.perchman.com/albums/index.php?alb=56&img=709

It's actually smaller and lighter than the Sound Device recorders. Photos 6 and 9 makes it look really small. Definitely curious how this recorder will sound as an all in one with my mics.

[shaggy]

Some really nice pictures here:

http://www.perchman.com/albums/index.php?alb=56&img=709

It's actually smaller and lighter than the Sound Device recorders. Photos 6 and 9 makes it look really small. Definitely curious how this recorder will sound as an all in one with my mics.

That thing is micro!  Definitely stealfable.  The display is a little lackluster, practically speaking it is doing it's job but there is no scale and it looks like the resolution is poor.

My experiences with Sonosax customer support was bad as well.  Sent a few emails about the plug needed to get a snug fit for the SX-M2.  Never responded to the two emails I sent.

Thanks for the link! +T  Philippe is obviously in love with the machine!  Love the locations, makes me wanna go back to Europe!

[mmedley.]

Some really nice pictures here:

http://www.perchman.com/albums/index.php?alb=56&img=709

It's actually smaller and lighter than the Sound Device recorders. Photos 6 and 9 makes it look really small. Definitely curious how this recorder will sound as an all in one with my mics.

That is a really kickass looking little recorder. I am curious of its performance.

[boojum]

Sonosax stuff is elegant, not unlike a Bugatti.  And maybe as fragile, too.  To run against Nagra and SD you have to be rugged.  Folks want  recorders to work every time they turn them on.  <100% just does not cut it at this price range at all.  Only once would a recorder have to fail on me to get me upset.

And, being in the west, French, end of Switzerland is a ways off to be and to also have bad customer support.  SD has excellent customer support in my experience and I will bet you a fat man that Nagra does, too.  So just like women, pretty is not enough to go the distance.  For something serious I want a recorder I can live with, day in, day out.

As usual, YMMV

Damn sure a pretty recorder, though.   

[SClassical]

Some of you might be interested...this is the user manual:

http://sonosax.ch/recorders/sxr4/sx-r4-um-eng_v1.0.pdf


Good to hear it's now SHIPPING!

An online shop is selling it @ approx US$5800 in Europe.

[boojum]

Pretty pricey for a four channel box no matter how elegant.  SD has the 788T at $5K.  I think that is a better buy.  I am prejudiced.

[mozmoz8]

I think the SD788T is actually about the same price ($5,995)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/788T/

[JasonSobel]

Pretty pricey for a four channel box no matter how elegant.  SD has the 788T at $5K.  I think that is a better buy.  I am prejudiced.

The Sonosax SX-R4 is an 8 channel recorder.

[SClassical]

Some real photos (not cartoon drawings). Anyone here purchased this recorder??

[kskreider]

I was just looking at his pictures and personally, I would get the Cantar instead:

[SClassical]

Here's another good site. This is a review and some nice pictures. They also review other recorders (like the Nagra), too.

http://www.productionrecording.com/Tools/SonosaxSXR4.html

[John Willett]

Here's another good site. This is a review and some nice pictures. They also review other recorders (like the Nagra), too.

http://www.productionrecording.com/Tools/SonosaxSXR4.html

A good site - but interesting prices.

In the USA the Nagra VI is about $1500 more than the SD 788T - in the UK, the Nagra VI is cheaper.

[SClassical]

Anyone in this forum got this recorder?

[boojum]

Sonosax and Nagra are quite elegant.  I would first opt for the Nagra as it has a track record of working, regardless.  And the electronics in it are first class. The drawbacks for me are the price and the lack of a local factory repair site.  I understand that Nagra has a couple of good authorized facilities in the US.  I am not sure about Sonosax.

As for Cantar, well, French women are really so enticing, eh?   

[H₂O]

With the 788T out and the price drop in the minir82, it would be a hard sell for me to go the SX-R4 route even if I had the money for this unit.

[SClassical]

Price drop for minir82?? How much is it now? I was thinking of getting the SX-R4 because it's has 4 internal mic preamps. The 744T only has 2 internal mic preamps. And the 788T is too big with a 24/48 limit. I think SXR4 is lighter and smaller than my 722 with batteries. Cannot think of a better all in one 4 track recorder smaller and lighter than the SX-R4. I think I can get it discounted. At the moment when ever I'm doing 4 track recording I'm carrying 442 and 722 with batteries which is very heavy and bulky.

[oleg]

with the British pound collapse , do it fast before they will update  the price
3000bp  without vat - about  4200 usd without shipping (another 100 or so)- probably at least 2 grand less then in trew audio  who bring these to usa

[H₂O]

I can't find the pricelist on the new Sonosax web site - but the last time  I checked the Mini-R82 was listed at approx $4600 USD and the R4 at approx $6200.   This is going off memory though.

[digifish_music]

I can't find the pricelist on the new Sonosax web site

If you have to ask, you can't afford it

[SClassical]

Just heard that Sonosax has just increased their prices...so now it even more expensive! 

[dointhatrag]

Sonosax has another crazy box !!!

I'll take one of these.

http://www.defitechnique.com/pdf/sonosax/E_SX-62R%20preliminary.pdf

[SClassical]

Wow look at this picture! Why would anyone want so many!?

http://www.perchman.com/albums/index.php?alb=69&img=911

Still no one here has one of these?!

[andyjah]

Are there any recordings out there done with the Sonosax SX-r4? I'm very curious to hear how this box sounds. Figured I'd ask since these units have been out for awhile now.

[H₂O]

If I had the $$$ I would go for the Aeta 4MinX over the SX R4 or the 788t

[andyjah]

If I had the $$$ I would go for the Aeta 4MinX over the SX R4 or the 788t

Have you heard either of these boxes yet? The 4minx is a bit more reasonably priced than the SXR4 right now. I doubt you could go wrong with either of these companies.

[H₂O]

No - the only 2 people I think that would would be John Willett and Oleg.

[F.O.Bean]

I want to hear this and the Aeta so badly. Remember that 4 channel Aeta preamp that surfaced a few years ago It sold QUICK, but was BADASS and did 4 channel. Wonder who bought it and has it now

[andyjah]

Here is the first recording that I know of with the SX-R4

http://archive.org/details/strangefolk2012-03-31.Schoeps_mk41_16bit

[H₂O]

Sounds pretty good - how far back?

Are you using external power or AA's?

I heard it is smaller than the SD 7 series -> How much smaller?

[andyjah]

Sounds pretty good - how far back?

Are you using external power or AA's?

I heard it is smaller than the SD 7 series -> How much smaller?

I ran the 41s  about 125' from the stage almost center. It was run on an external 9v dvd battery. I can't speak for the 7series but it is quite a bit smaller than a R-44. I have the recorder,two batteries,Schoep KC5 setup and accessories all nicely fit into an old DAP1 portabrace. Loving the small footprint of this rig.

[page]

any comments on the sonosax house sound (and how prevalent it still is)

[andyjah]

any comments on the sonosax house sound (and how prevalent it still is)

I'd describe it as still warm but a very open transparent sound to it. Very accurate detail to it. I've only run one show with it so far though so I'm very anxious to get it into all the regular venues around here. Very easy to use. It's just going through the menus and making sure everything gets routed properly.

There is also a Microtech Gefell source from the Strangefolk show to check out as well. I ran the mg200s into the SXR4 since Smokin Joe had brought them along. I figured tapers would want to hear the different mics going into this thing. My ears lean towards the Schoeps  .

Here is the Gefell source

http://archive.org/details/strangefolk2012-03-31.mg200_16bit

[page]

any comments on the sonosax house sound (and how prevalent it still is)

I'd describe it as still warm but a very open transparent sound to it. Very accurate detail to it.

Does it smear, spread, or sparkle (sonically) less than the old sx-m2?

[andyjah]

any comments on the sonosax house sound (and how prevalent it still is)

I'd describe it as still warm but a very open transparent sound to it. Very accurate detail to it.

Does it smear, spread, or sparkle (sonically) less than the old sx-m2?

I think it's still got warmness but much cleaner than the SXM2.

[page]

any comments on the sonosax house sound (and how prevalent it still is)

I'd describe it as still warm but a very open transparent sound to it. Very accurate detail to it.

Does it smear, spread, or sparkle (sonically) less than the old sx-m2?

I think it's still got warmness but much cleaner than the SXM2.

Thanks!

[SmokinJoe]

I like the way it sounds with the Schoeps a lot better than the way it does with the Gefells.  Schoeps > Sax is a well established marriage that's worked well for you for a long time.  Now you have a smaller bag, a lot less connections and the same great sound.  Hell yes I'm jealous. 

I'm sure Teddy will have some AKGs for you to try.  I want to hear it with Jessie's Funken Tubes.

[andyjah]

I like the way it sounds with the Schoeps a lot better than the way it does with the Gefells.  Schoeps > Sax is a well established marriage that's worked well for you for a long time.  Now you have a smaller bag, a lot less connections and the same great sound.  Hell yes I'm jealous. 

I'm sure Teddy will have some AKGs for you to try.  I want to hear it with Jessie's Funken Tubes.

Joe, I do think there is a somewhat brighter sound with this than my old rig. I'd describe the difference as brighter and more open but still a beautiful warmth to it with more accuracy in the instruments. 

I think the gefell hypers would have been a better match for that room.

[H₂O]

How is the display and level meters?

[andyjah]

How is the display and level meters?

The level meters are a little small on the eyes but once you learn it it's pretty easy. There is a reference level you can set on the meters so you know your hitting the right levels. I have mine set at -9db so as long as I'm pushing a bit past that I know I'm there. The led system is the true way to tell. I forget the settings when the greens, yellows and reds hit but that is what I tend to watch to tell where I'm hitting. As usual with Sonosax it seems to like to be run hot. My SXM2 always liked to be run with the reds just hitting occasionally. Looking forward to getting it out in the field again this weekend. I was very impressed with the results from that Strangefolk gig.

This summer I'll be hitting Phish at Jones Beach, Worcester and SPAC. Anyone is more than welcome to try their mics into the other 2 channels that I'm not using for those or any other gigs I'm at where I'm only running 2 channels.

[SmokinJoe]

I like the way it sounds with the Schoeps a lot better than the way it does with the Gefells.  Schoeps > Sax is a well established marriage that's worked well for you for a long time.  Now you have a smaller bag, a lot less connections and the same great sound.  Hell yes I'm jealous. 

I'm sure Teddy will have some AKGs for you to try.  I want to hear it with Jessie's Funken Tubes.

Joe, I do think there is a somewhat brighter sound with this than my old rig. I'd describe the difference as brighter and more open but still a beautiful warmth to it with more accuracy in the instruments. 

I think the gefell hypers would have been a better match for that room.

I don't think it sounds brighter with the MK41's, at least not in a bad way... more open?  Yeah maybe a little.  I think the pre's are probably identical, you've taken the apogee out of the loop.

When I heard the Gefell source my first thought was "Hmmm too sparkly."  I listened again the next day and I liked it. Gefells, at least the M20 card caps, have a fairly generous presence hump, and SX-R4 may tend to emphasize that rather than minimize it.  IMO the same with the the few Gefell/SX-M2 tapes I've heard.  That's not a dig against the Sax, just an observation.  Some combos are magically delicious, and some aren't.