Topic: Choice to be made : AT853>pre>iHP-120

[Semayat]

Hi,

Here we are, a year later (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,88790.15.html
) and i have some questions :

I've bought some AT853's mics terminated into a mini 1/8' for a d*** low price.
I want to modify them into mini xlr in order to give them phantom power. Here are my questions :

- how could i modify my mics?
- Instead of a PS-2/ad20 combo, i am thinking of buying a SD mixpre/SD MP2/Shure FP24 = these are mini xlr inputs/outputs, right???
- What cable should i use between Pre>cable>iHP-120

Thanks in advance for your response

[OOK]

Hi,

Here we are, a year later (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,88790.15.html
) and i have some questions :

I've bought some AT853's mics terminated into a mini 1/8' for a d*** low price.
I want to modify them into mini xlr in order to give them phantom power. Here are my questions :

- how could i modify my mics?
- Instead of a PS-2/ad20 combo, i am thinking of buying a SD mixpre/SD MP2/Shure FP24 = these are mini xlr inputs/outputs, right???
- What cable should i use between Pre>cable>iHP-120

Thanks in advance for your response

SD mixpre/SD MP2/Shure FP24 = They have standard XLR in and outs.............

[nameloc01]

Phantom adaptors. You're gonna need em' anyhow.

[Semayat]

Yes, indeed.
But i am little bit concerned with XLR ... what would I used between pre > ? > iHP-120 then??

Maybe a PS-2>iHP-120 (using internal preamp) combo (=> I've seen some people running that rig with pretty good results) in order to keep mini XLR.

I do not know, that's why i need explanations

[nameloc01]

You will need to bring the mini XLRs on the mics to full size XLRs for the power source (which also will step the voltage down) then from either the PS2 or preamp,if you're gonna use one,..a dual full size XLR> male 1/8" mini plug cable. (The 120 has a mini in,right?) Or if you're just gonna run mics> PS2>recorder...the PS2 can be ordered with a hardwire 2' male mini plug cable (out) instead of the (stock) dual full size XLRs. Which is nice, as it eliminates the bulky (dual xlr>male mini plug) extra cable.

[Will_S]

Wow, I (largely) agree with nameloc01 for once!

If you want to run a MixPre, by all means get the AT853s re-terminated to miniXLRs, and then get phantom adapters.  If you are handy with a soldering iron, you should be able to do this yourself, a quick search here will turn up the appropriate wiring diagrams.  But the wires inside an AT853 mic cable are tiny, and there's not a lot of room to work inside a mini-XLR connector, so it might be better to leave that to someone experienced if you are not.

I would not recommend PS-2>iRiver unless you exclusively record really loud material.  It will work, but you will have to add a lot of gain with the iRiver's built-in preamp if recording quieter material.  That will be noisy, a lot more so than if you use a mixpre or even a much cheaper Church Audio preamp.

Also a PS-2 has XLR inputs, not mini-XLR.  You'd still need to get phantom adapters to use it.

Alternately, get a 3 wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs.  A lot less bulk than the phantom solutions, but you still get locking inputs and 3 wire power, which is all the phantom adapters ultimately provide to the mics.

Or (cue angry response from nameloc01) you can get a 4.7k mod done and get a CA-9100 preamp with a miniplug input.  It will sound better than phantom adapters>PS-2 using the internal preamp of the iRiver, but probably not as good as a MixPre.  PS-2>AD-20>iRiver would sound better than PS-2>iRiver because you get to use the better preamp and A/D in the AD20, AD20 vs CA9100 is probably just a matter of taste.

[nameloc01]

Nice Will...glad to see you're finally comin' around

Nah, no angry response lined up...at least not yet.

[nameloc01]

FYI,"junkyardt" was telling me the other day he might be selling his AD-20...so if you end up going that route, if may be beneficial to get ahold of him before buying new.

[Will_S]

Nice Will...glad to see you're finally comin' around

I wouldn't say coming around...I'd never argue that you should expect a $140 preamp (Church Audio) to perform better than a $660 one (the Mixpre).  And if you're going to use a preamp/mixer with phantom power and XLR inputs, by all means use phantom adapters...I've always said that makes sense.

[nameloc01]

Well, without getting into some debate, as far as I know, from what I have read the 853s get the absolute max SPL handling ability via 3 wire phantom. (Whether it be a PS2 or mixer or whatever). Now, while the "mod" definitely makes the setup much smaller, it doesn't allow for the same exact SPL handling ability, and when the sensitivity is lowered the "noise" is not lowered in relation to the gain, so theorectically you have more noise in the recording, although ultimately its probably irrelevant. Personally, from everything I've heard the 853s sound better when ran off of phantom.
Fact is, the mics were designed to be "hanging/choir mics" which were meant to ran off of a mixing board (phantom) power (or AT phantom belt pack..although I might add these don't sound nearly as good as a Denecke)
The real only "drawback" to the Denecke is that the signal isn't completely balanced..but that's easily rectified.

[Church-Audio]

Well, without getting into some debate, as far as I know, from what I have read the 853s get the absolute max SPL handling ability via 3 wire phantom. (Whether it be a PS2 or mixer or whatever). Now, while the "mod" definitely makes the setup much smaller, it doesn't allow for the same exact SPL handling ability, and when the sensitivity is lowered the "noise" is not lowered in relation to the gain, so theorectically you have more noise in the recording, although ultimately its probably irrelevant. Personally, from everything I've heard the 853s sound better when ran off of phantom.
Fact is, the mics were designed to be "hanging/choir mics" which were meant to ran off of a mixing board (phantom) power (or AT phantom belt pack..although I might add these don't sound nearly as good as a Denecke)
The real only "drawback" to the Denecke is that the signal isn't completely balanced..but that's easily rectified.

No offence but there is only about a 1.5 db reduction in sensitivity over three wire with my mod And the MAX spl is absolutely the same or better with my mod vs three wire. lets get our facts straight. There is no more self noise with my mod then there is with three wire......
PS.... There is no sonic difference between three wire and my mod ether other then the fact you might be able to use a very expensive high end preamp over my 9100 No other differences between the two methods. If you can show me a difference please go ahead and where exactly are you getting your facts from? 
Chris

[Church-Audio]

Nice Will...glad to see you're finally comin' around

I wouldn't say coming around...I'd never argue that you should expect a $140 preamp (Church Audio) to perform better than a $660 one (the Mixpre).  And if you're going to use a preamp/mixer with phantom power and XLR inputs, by all means use phantom adapters...I've always said that makes sense.

Other then gain there should be no major difference between my preamp and a mixpre. My preamp sonically sounds very good but you only get 23db of gain with my preamp but for most shows that is plenty. 

[nameloc01]

Well, as I was told by an AT Dealer..the "noise" is not lowered in conjuction and relation to the gain. Now, I'm not saying that its an important issue, I'm just saying that's what I'm told. You are saying different. What your spec on the SPLs with the mod? Listen, I'm not dogging you, so please don't get your panties bunched up, I actually blame SP for all this debate, as if they were not to have sold the AT mics terminated together 2wire,thus resulting in all of the clipping problems, we probably wouldn't even be talking about this now. My only point ever was/is...if you run them phantom 3wire, they basically will not clip and there's no need for the mod...*unless* you feel the size reduction issue is relevant (I personally do not) or cost is a determining factor.

[Will_S]

Nice Will...glad to see you're finally comin' around

I wouldn't say coming around...I'd never argue that you should expect a $140 preamp (Church Audio) to perform better than a $660 one (the Mixpre).  And if you're going to use a preamp/mixer with phantom power and XLR inputs, by all means use phantom adapters...I've always said that makes sense.

Other then gain there should be no major difference between my preamp and a mixpre. My preamp sonically sounds very good but you only get 23db of gain with my preamp but for most shows that is plenty. 

No doubt, you make a nice preamp and it might be just what the original poster needs.  I find I need a bit more gain than that at a lot of the shows I go to, but I'm more into "amplified acoustic" than rock. 

The MixPre is also nice and future-proof in that it will work with true phantom powered condensers in the future, and can be run with a recorder with balanced ins.  But if the OP is going to be taping loud shows only, and plans to stick with the AT853s for a long time, I don't think I'd recommend running a preamp that costs 2x what the mics do.

[Church-Audio]

Well, as I was told by an AT Dealer..the "noise" is not lowered in conjuction and relation to the gain. Now, I'm not saying that its an important issue, I'm just saying that's what I'm told. You are saying different. What your spec on the SPLs with the mod? Listen, I'm not dogging you, so please don't get your panties bunched up, I actually blame SP for all this debate, as if they were not to have sold the AT mics terminated together 2wire,thus resulting in all of the clipping problems, we probably wouldn't even be talking about this now. My only point ever was/is...if you run them phantom 3wire, they basically will not clip and there's no need for the mod...*unless* you feel the size reduction issue is relevant (I personally do not) or cost is a determining factor.

The limit to my measurement is 114 db at 1k I measured the distortion at 0.5% at 114 db at 1k. Now the measurements they are making at AT I have no idea how they are getting them to be honest. But both three wire and my mod measure exactly the same when the mod is done. So I have so assume that the distortion value will not change much at higher SPL but again I doubt most of you would want to be in a concert that was much louder then 114db. The noise floor is not any different because both use a resistor in the bias path the difference between the two is in the location of the resistor. So both methods do no harm to increasing self noise one over the other.



Chris

[Semayat]

Tks a lot to everyone...Will_S did an excellent explanation with all alternatives.
I want phantom power for those mics to try...then if i am not satisfied i'll move to CA preamp.

and there's not a lot of room to work inside a mini-XLR connector, so it might be better to leave that to someone experienced if you are not.

That's right, and i don't want to blow my mics...taping is an hobby and i am not experienced in electronics at all....

I would not recommend PS-2>iRiver unless you exclusively record really loud material

- I tape exclusively very very loud shows, then PM4>PS2>iHP120 could be good ....I'll try this, I think.
OR, I have to find a mixpre with a raisonnable price.

Tks to everyone, one more time

[jeromejello]

semayat,

I have made many a recording with the at853 > p48 adapter (you need this or you will fry your mics) > sd mp-2 > iriver.  you probably have heard some of my reggae recordings.  great stealth rig, great sound, bomb proof, takes a good spl assault without distortion.

get your at 853 terminated to a mini xlr and pick up the at8553 adapters and then grab a sd mixpre/mp-2 or shure fp24 and you will be very happy with your results.

[Semayat]

semayat,

I have made many a recording with the at853 > p48 adapter (you need this or you will fry your mics) > sd mp-2 > iriver.  you probably have heard some of my reggae recordings.  great stealth rig, great sound, bomb proof, takes a good spl assault without distortion.

get your at 853 terminated to a mini xlr and pick up the at8553 adapters and then grab a sd mixpre/mp-2 or shure fp24 and you will be very happy with your results.

Yes!!

How are you?

You're the reason i want that rig actually
Your recordings are very great!!!

[Sunday Driver]

I would not recommend PS-2>iRiver unless you exclusively record really loud material.  It will work, but you will have to add a lot of gain with the iRiver's built-in preamp if recording quieter material.

Sorry, but that is actually incorrect. The iRiver H120's combined  mic/line input has a very low impedance making it more "sensitive". Not much gain needs to be added even in venues with low sound pressure levels. In the case of the Edirol R-09HR or R-09, it works as you stated since those units have true mic and line inputs.

[Church-Audio]

I would not recommend PS-2>iRiver unless you exclusively record really loud material.  It will work, but you will have to add a lot of gain with the iRiver's built-in preamp if recording quieter material.

Sorry, but that is actually incorrect. The iRiver H120's combined  mic/line input has a very low impedance making it more "sensitive". Not much gain needs to be added even in venues with low sound pressure levels. In the case of the Edirol R-09HR or R-09, it works as you stated since those units have true mic and line inputs.

I don't think you can generalize. The amount of gain needed relies on the acoustic sound pressure in the venue and the sensitivity of the mics in question. These two factors determine the amount of gain needed to get a good recording I personally found with my h120 that the internal preamp had a fair amount of self noise in comparison to the R09HR.

Chris

[Sunday Driver]

Well, I'm certainly not comparing the H120 to the R-09HR. That's like comparing a Kia to a BMW.  But I had to use it once because my SD card corrupted on me right before a show, and I noticed a big difference in input sensitivity between the iRiver and line input on the R-09HR / R-09. Every show I go to is loud or at least has loud parts to it.

[Will_S]

Well, I'm certainly not comparing the H120 to the R-09HR. That's like comparing a Kia to a BMW.  But I had to use it once because my SD card corrupted on me right before a show, and I noticed a big difference in input sensitivity between the iRiver and line input on the R-09HR / R-09. Every show I go to is loud or at least has loud parts to it.

Well yeah, but the mic input on the R09 is pretty comparable, sensitivitywise, to the iRiver's input (mic in, low-sens), and adds less noise.  I've run both.  Loud rock shows you can run the iRiver within a gain range I find acceptable, anything quieter and you can clearly hear the noise.  It still does an amazing job considering it's a cheap MP3 player that wasn't really designed for recording in the first place.

[sunjan]

- I tape exclusively very very loud shows, then PM4>PS2>iHP120 could be good ....I'll try this, I think.
OR, I have to find a mixpre with a raisonnable price.

Hey Semayat,

In your initial post one year ago, you ruled out the UA5, on the basis that it was too large, and you wanted something more low profile. But isn't the mixpre or MP2 almost as big/heavy as the UA5?

So the quest here is to find a phantom/pre combo that is smaller than that?! What about fivefish's TS-2, I guess that has an even bigger footprint?

[Semayat]

I'll go with a PS2 instead of a SD MP2 
I'll consider moving to a mixpre later in 2009 & only if i am not satisfied with the PS2.
But, tks for your interest anyway and the tips.

[jeromejello]

I'll go with a PS2 instead of a SD MP2 
I'll consider moving to a mixpre later in 2009 & only if i am not satisfied with the PS2.
But, tks for your interest anyway and the tips.

i used the ps2 for a while before i found a sd mp2.  i would suggest picking up a pair of line transformers (Hosa Mit-176) it will provide some cheap, CLEAN, gain for you.

good luck!

[Semayat]

Hi,

What are the phantom adapters sp provides when they do the 79$ mod?
I am thinking to send my mics but they do reply to my questions :-(

[nameloc01]

The are adaptors that transition the mini xlrs on the mics to the full size xlrs on the power supply, they also step down the voltage so the 48vs don't fry your mics. The "mod" SP sells is just putting the mini xlrs (back) on and throwing in a pair of the adaptors.

[Semayat]

The are adaptors that transition the mini xlrs on the mics to the full size xlrs on the power supply, they also step down the voltage so the 48vs don't fry your mics. The "mod" SP sells is just putting the mini xlrs (back) on and throwing in a pair of the adaptors.

Yes, yes...I wanted to know what was the brand of these adaptors...these are Nadys (I've had an email from Chris)

[nameloc01]

Yup,Nady cbm40s.

[Semayat]

Yup,Nady cbm40s.

Tks anyway, for your answer to my previous question 

[Semayat]

I'll go with a PS2 instead of a SD MP2 
I'll consider moving to a mixpre later in 2009 & only if i am not satisfied with the PS2.
But, tks for your interest anyway and the tips.

i used the ps2 for a while before i found a sd mp2.  i would suggest picking up a pair of line transformers (Hosa Mit-176) it will provide some cheap, CLEAN, gain for you.

good luck!

Those Hosa Mit-176 are dual xlr (i could plug directly to the PS2)>mini plug (to plug into my iHP-120), right?