Topic: Please tapers read this.. Dont need long answer!

[Sindre]

Okey, So I have bought a camcorder... Sony DCR-HC16E - With "Mic in".

Is this a good Microphone? And is that site "safe" to buy from?

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs...redbattery1.htm

[Rich.]

The link dosen't work.

But yes, that site is safe to buy from.

[Sindre]

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-poweredbattery1.htm

[Sindre]

Will that work for my camcorder`?

[Nick Graham]

Will that work for my camcorder`?

Yes

(hope that answer's not too fucking long...)

[dklein]

Those mics aren't likely to sound much different than the ones built into the camera.  Depending on what you want, they may be worse and pick up more of the sound you don't want (omnis vs. cardiod in the camera).
The bigger problem is the automatic level control built into your camera.  It will make every mic sound bad!

But yes...they will work  i.e. produce a sound

[Sindre]

so what do you suggest I shall get?

[dklein]

What are you trying to accomplish?  Is this for recording concerts?

[Sindre]

What are you trying to accomplish?  Is this for recording concerts?

Yep, metallica, motorhead, coldplay etc:) heavy shit...

[SparkE!]

I'm going to disagree with dklein here.  Those mics will actually make a huge difference in sound.  The ones inside the camcorder are run from too low of a bias voltage and they overload easily.  The giant squids have a 9V battery box and don't overload until the SPL is over 130 dB.  Most cameras bug out at about 105 to 110 dB.

****HOWEVER**** The signal will bee too hot at the mic input to your camera.  You will need to attenuate the signal about 30 dB. The way I've done it on a Sony DCR-TRV38 is to add a series 180k resistor to both the right and left signal paths.  The input impedance of the camera's mic input is about 5.6k so the attenuation you get from the series 180 ohm resistor is 20 log (185.6/5.6) which is about 30.4 dB.

What I normally do with that exact model of mic is run it into the line input on a NJB3 and also run it through the attenuator cable to my video camera.  That way, I have an uncompressed audio source to substitute for the one on the camera if I choose to make a DVD from the video.  (Mini-DV's audio is a compressed, MPEG2 format with AGC on the front end.)

Anyway, if you use about 30 dB of attenuation with those mics, you'll get WAY better audio than relying on the camera's internal mics.

[SparkE!]

And sorry... That's as short an answer as I ever give.

[Sindre]

I'm going to disagree with dklein here.  Those mics will actually make a huge difference in sound.  The ones inside the camcorder are run from too low of a bias voltage and they overload easily.  The giant squids have a 9V battery box and don't overload until the SPL is over 130 dB.  Most cameras bug out at about 105 to 110 dB.

****HOWEVER**** The signal will bee too hot at the mic input to your camera.  You will need to attenuate the signal about 30 dB. The way I've done it on a Sony DCR-TRV38 is to add a series 180k resistor to both the right and left signal paths.  The input impedance of the camera's mic input is about 5.6k so the attenuation you get from the series 180 ohm resistor is 20 log (185.6/5.6) which is about 30.4 dB.

What I normally do with that exact model of mic is run it into the line input on a NJB3 and also run it through the attenuator cable to my video camera.  That way, I have an uncompressed audio source to substitute for the one on the camera if I choose to make a DVD from the video.  (Mini-DV's audio is a compressed, MPEG2 format with AGC on the front end.)

Anyway, if you use about 30 dB of attenuation with those mics, you'll get WAY better audio than relying on the camera's internal mics.

English please:P I don't undestand a word here, or I do understand everything!:D But what do you suggest I shall do? Can I buy that mic i showed you? and do I have to buy some extra cables?

[greenone]

English:

If you're taping those bands with those mics (you need two to make a stereo recording), it will overload your camera's input unless you attenuate (lower) the signal somehow. This can be accomplished with an attenuator, which you will need to buy. You will also need a battery box, which will give your mics enough juice to prevent THEM from overloading.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Are you interested in those mics because you have a limited budget or because they are small?

I think that you would do much better to have an independent person running audio using a regular taping rig and then use the camera's audio to sync video to the better stereo recording later.  The reason I suggest this is because shooting video very often involves dodging security and as you do that the audio captured by the camera will suffer.  Everytime you lower the camera or have to move to a new location, you are going to get bad audio. 

Instead, have one low profile audio taper stand still and get a decent audio recording using those little mics into a JB3 nomad or other small recorder (or much better mics like the tiny DPAs if your budget allows).  Then when you mix the audio and video tracks, you'll have a very decent audio track and the parts of the video that are hosed due to movement or the crowd can be fixed by using stills and video effects to replace the missing video.

[Sindre]

Ahaa... I dont have a big budget, so i dont have "friends" with the right gear to tape... So im giving up on that mic thingy:) but thanks to everyone!!:)

[fandelive]

You will also need a battery box, which will give your mics enough juice to prevent THEM from overloading.

I don't think a battery-box will be usefull when plugging the mics into the "mic-in".

[SparkE!]

The battery box is so that the mic elements themselves will not overload in environments with high sound pressure level.  When biased by the 1.5 or so Volts that is provided by the camera's mic port, the mic element's output signal cannot swing far enough without clipping against ground or 1.5 V.  If you increase the power supply voltage to 9 V by using a battery box, its output can swing farther without clipping. So, it can handle the higher sound pressure levels that produce those larger signal voltages.

[greenone]

Hm. So you can use a battery box even on mic in? I have to admit I've never tried it...

[SparkE!]

Hm. So you can use a battery box even on mic in? I have to admit I've never tried it...

Yes, ***BUT*** electret mics generally produce more signal level than your Mic input will like, so you'll probably have to use a 30 dB attenuator to knock your line level signal down to mic level.

So, the battery box keeps you from clipping the mic signal in your mics and the attenuator keeps you from clipping the mic signal in the input to your camera.

[greenone]

Ok, that makes loads of sense. Thanks!!

Now, can you take about six more paragraphs to explain the same thing? Gotta keep your average answer length up, man!

[Roving Sign]

Part of the problem is everybody says "Battery Box" - but this can mean about 5 different things/devices...all of which do similar tasks...some just power the mics...some add gain...some have level pads...some have fixed gain settings...some have all...

Some were designed to feed line level inputs...some just power the mics...hence a lot of confusion...

[SparkE!]

Most "battery boxes" simply provide a bias voltage for the electret element used in the mics and then AC couples the audio signal to whatever device is to receive the mic signal, but you're right that some of them have bass rolloff, adjustable attenuation or even adjustable gain.

[mmedley.]

(Mini-DV's audio is a compressed, MPEG2 format with AGC on the front end.)

Say what? Not that I have ever seen...DV-AVI files use uncompressed wav. You don't compress shit until you render for DVD...and even then you can render with PCM audio instead of mpeg audio.

[SparkE!]

(Mini-DV's audio is a compressed, MPEG2 format with AGC on the front end.)

Say what? Not that I have ever seen...DV-AVI files use uncompressed wav. You don't compress shit until you render for DVD...and even then you can render with PCM audio instead of mpeg audio.

DOH! Yup, you're right.  I was confusing mini-DV and DVD formats and you are also correct that it is possible to render DVD with PCM audio (which is the way I normally do it).  However, the mic audio is AGC'd on most mini-DV cameras.  Even when you get the levels right and don't clip your mic signals, the audio is not as good as other 16 bit PCM recorders, mainly because of the AGC. (There's less dynamic range.)  On my DCR-TRV38, the audio is also noticeably noisier than the audio that I record with a UA-5 and NJB3.

Still... you get better audio on your mini-DV when you use an external, powered mic and an attenuator.  It sounds WAAAYYY better than just using the internal mic on the camera.

[mmedley.]

I've never run a side by side comparison, but I know alot of Panic shows from the summer were vtaped with external audio "on-the-fly." I 100% believe you that something screwy goes on using a mic or line-in on the camera. It will be interesting to see if there is a big difference. I don't even own a mini-DV camera, but do they all have mic in or do some have a line-in as well? I use the tried and true way...all editing and mastering done in post...

[SparkE!]

Line in on a camera only works when you are recording from an external video source.  If you are recording through the lens, then you only have a mic input, if one exists.  A lot of the mini-DV cameras have no mic input.  That's one of the things that I was careful to look for when I was looking for cameras.  Only a handful of the Digital-8 cameras have mic inputs too.

If you are only recording audio on a video tape, then I think you can run line in and just play like you have an external video source.  I don't know if the camera would get upset about never getting video synch, though.  I wonder if it would shut down after awhile if it was not getting video synch?

[fandelive]

Hm. So you can use a battery box even on mic in? I have to admit I've never tried it...

Yes, ***BUT*** electret mics generally produce more signal level than your Mic input will like, so you'll probably have to use a 30 dB attenuator to knock your line level signal down to mic level.

So, the battery box keeps you from clipping the mic signal in your mics and the attenuator keeps you from clipping the mic signal in the input to your camera.

I already tried it on a Sony MD (we all know the quality of Sony's MDs and DATs "mic-in" preamps...) and got brickwalling.
I don't have an attenuator cable, but it might work.

[Sindre]

I think I will buy that mic I showed you on the last page.. Aslong as the audio becomes better, Im happy

[firmdragon]

in my experience, the AGC isn't thaaat bad.  i've plugged sonics and okms straight in and haven't had a distorto yet.  sure the dynamic range sucks, but if you cared that much about audio (relative to video) you'd have an external audio source.

if you're going to low ball on mics.  scour ebay for a realistic electret 33-1065.  that is the absolute cheapie mic that i would recommend.  i'd look toward sound pros before giant squid.  but hey it's not my $$ to waste.