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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: ts on June 11, 2022, 09:05:03 PM
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So I went to add these to my "make an offer yard sale" and when I opened the box they're in they were totally disintegrated. Any one ever have this happen? Stored in a box in a closet. Probably 20 years old. :shrug:
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I've definitely heard this happens. I check mine out about once a year to make sure they aren't shedding onto/into my mics when I use them.
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Yep, that’ll happen….
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This is the result of intentional or unintentional violation of manufacturing technology.
I've had RFT foam for forty years and it's as good as new.
At that time, Germany's chemical industry was the most advanced.
What is produced today I change in three years usually.
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Same thing with a pair of DPA screens last year. They were maybe 6-7 years old. Got them out to use them and got black particles all over my desk.
I'll be more diligent about replacing screens every few years going forward.
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IMO, ALL such foam products are suspect, especially older ones, from any manufacturer. Check any mic or gear boxes with foam inserts, too. I've seen foam rot from Bruel & Kjaer, Neumann, Audio Technica etc.
Sometimes it turns to dry dust, and sometimes it turns to sticky goo, which is especially a pain to clean up. I regularly check my various foam products by just squeezing them - if they feel tacky and less springy, the end is near. If you don't want to check a foam regularly, at least isolate it with a polyethylene bag which seem pretty stable after 50 years or so.
I have a pair of old AT4050 mics and they came in those little vinyl covered flip boxes with foam cutouts. The foam is getting tacky, so I put it in a poly bag, put it back, and continue to store the mics in it until I can figure out a replacement plan. I may not replace it with more foam; old Neumanns came in wooden boxes with velour inserts. The original A-T foam windscreens also went tacky and I threw them away. Gads, even Windtech replacements for these are something like $60 each.
I'm sure a foam chemist could tell us what's going on. It kind of looks like analog tape sticky shed, a polyurethane recipe problem.
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Not as bad as the polyurethane in your hiking boots disintegrating to dust 5 miles into a backpacking trip, but bad. Vasque blamed it on a reaction of old polyurethane and moisture.
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I've also had a couple pairs of BAS get sort of less fluffed and beat looking, then outright shed. Catch it early and replace.
X2 on putting mics in polyurethane bags to protect against failing foam and other environmental contamination. When doing that I like to throw a small desiccant pact in there to trap any retained moisture.
Have wondered if better to store BAS and other foam screens in polyurethane bags or better to provide sufficient circulation. If in bags.. with desiccant? what about those little oxygen absorbing packs found packed with vitamins and some foods? Some other charm?
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I don't know about polyurethane bags, I am now leery of all polyurethane for long life. I think I prefer the common polyethylene plastic bag, but have no way to test the material or know for certain. I once cleaned out my parent's old stuff that had common plastic bags that were roughly 60-70 years old and only a few were slightly tacky, but not sticking to the objects. OTOH, some plastic bags today are designed to quickly disintegrate. Hard to tell.
I would not put a device like a mic into a plastic bag without a desiccant, as I have seen steel rust quickly in a bag. I have been putting the sculpted foam mic box cutout into the bag, then laying the mic into it. I feel some air circulation is good, as well as a good shirtsleeve storage environment. The foam itself, I figure is a short term item now, and I figure the decomposition is mainly chemical and not environmental.
At any rate, many of our favorite devices are made of materials that probably won't last many decades anyway, like plastics, rubber, lead-free solder, capacitors, and so on.
I've also had a couple pairs of BAS get sort of less fluffed and beat looking, then outright shed. Catch it early and replace.
X2 on putting mics in polyurethane bags to protect against failing foam and other environmental contamination. When doing that I like to throw a small desiccant pact in there to trap any retained moisture.
Have wondered if better to store BAS and other foam screens in polyurethane bags or better to provide sufficient circulation. If in bags.. with desiccant? what about those little oxygen absorbing packs found packed with vitamins and some foods? Some other charm?
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I have had Shure BA windscreens (WS81 iirc) disintegrate. Now, we keep them in drybags for boating.
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
:coolguy: Still the same price as ever. Not too long ago they were out of stock everywhere.
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
I used those like 3 times and went back to BAS's. They didnt seem to do much of anything in a light breeze. Just my experience.
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^^ Out of stock in that link also! Says it is on backorder...
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I'm about to order a few of those to see if I can figure out a way to use them in place of BAS's in my rig. Some tests are in order as the rig requires 5 of them. Problem is the mics are literally the diameter of a pencil so I'll need to adapt the rubber cuff to fit.
Had to laugh at this part (my bold) of Adorama's description upon following the link above-
"Movo Photo WST50 Ballistic Nylon Windscreen for Shotgun Microphones up to 1.2" Long & 18-24mm Diameter"
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
I used those like 3 times and went back to BAS's. They didnt seem to do much of anything in a light breeze. Just my experience.
I'm kind of shocked to hear that, given that I have used them in 40 mph wind gusts with my CM3s multiple times. I wonder if you had a bad fit?
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Could be fit, or might just be the microphone's greater susceptibility to wind noise.
As for fit- I posted recently about how minor "leaks" at the elastic cuff area of the BAS can result in major wind problems that these windscreens would otherwise be completely capable of handling, and did fully handle once I took measures to correct the problem, working it out in a windy parking lot monitoring through headphones.
On the other front- CM3 is over toward the subcardioid side of cardioid, which places it closer to the omni end of the pattern spectrum and less susceptible to wind and handling noise. If the microphones that jcable77 was using were closer to the fig-8 side of things than the omni side, perhaps supercard/hypercarioids, they would naturally be more susceptible to wind even if the windscreen fit was correct.
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
I used those like 3 times and went back to BAS's. They didnt seem to do much of anything in a light breeze. Just my experience.
I'm kind of shocked to hear that, given that I have used them in 40 mph wind gusts with my CM3s multiple times. I wonder if you had a bad fit?
Im not sure? I thought they were pretty snug. It was a few years ago so my memory could be off a bit. It was at a festival with ck61's with actives. Maybe I didnt push them on as far as I needed? First 2 evenings there was barely any wind at all and wind noise was light but evident. Third night it was definitely breezy and I remember getting home, checking out the files and being somewhat pissed that the third night was completely toast. I ended up putting em up on YS the next day. It could have possibly been the fit with the actives.
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I dont have these screens but i would imagine you might be able to close any gaps at the opening with some carefully placed gaff tape..
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^That may work fine for the Movo with the big rubber cuff to stick the tape to.
But it doesn't work well for BAS. I tried several months back. First, the tape adhesive tears up the foam. Secondly, it doesn't really work well anyway, even if you don't care about tearing up the foam. The tape doesn't stick well, and any folds or imperfections allows wind to sneak between the tape and foam. After struggling with gaff tape, I got good results from warping a piece of fake fur around the back of the BAS windscreen, carefully so that it completely covers the black elastic foam part with a snug fit all the way around, then fastening that in place with a couple small binder clips. That fixed the wind leakage from the back without covering the entire foam windscreen in a fr cover.
Details and photos here- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191953.msg2373433#msg2373433
There are 5 BAS in in use there, four with the partial fur covers on the back, the fifth housing the center mic pair inside one BAS over which I put a Rycote Windjammer intended for their BBG that covered the entire BAS, secured with its integrated draw-string closure in back.
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If you are looking for a replacement, these block as much or more wind noise as the Shure / DPA style huge foamies without the HF roll-off.
https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html (https://www.adorama.com/mvwst50.html)
I used those like 3 times and went back to BAS's. They didnt seem to do much of anything in a light breeze. Just my experience.
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As others have mentioned, there must have been a bad fit there, or a defect. I've used these screens in windy conditions numerous times and they were effective with no resulting wind damage.
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Yes. Just pulled out various mics over the last couple of weeks that haven't been used for the last 3 years. All windshilds disintegrating on touch.
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Yeah, I pulled out my Olympus LS-10 last night to charge the Eneloops and the foam windscreens are now disintegrating and useless. I don't think they make replacements, they use a plastic clip inside the foam. The alternative looks like a Rycote furry wig.
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Are people using the Movo WST50 for ‘active’ style mikes?
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Are people using the Movo WST50 for ‘active’ style mikes?
Yes. They fit both my MK41 and mbho ka300 actives perfectly
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Are people using the Movo WST50 for ‘active’ style mikes?
Yes. They fit both my MK41 and mbho ka300 actives perfectly
Seconded, they work perfectly on Schoeps and AKG nbobs in my experience
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Awesome.. thanks fellas!!
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How deep is the well into which the microphone fits in the WST50?
Should I assume the "50" equates to 50mm deep?
Is there much internal depth to the rubber cuff that grabs onto the mic body? If so what is the actual usable unblocked open space depth inside the windscreen, between the furthest forward edge of the cuff and the "bottom of the well" inside the windscreen?
Thinking I may need the 60 or 70 rather than the 50.
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How deep is the well into which the microphone fits in the WST50?
Should I assume the "50" equates to 50mm deep?
Is there much internal depth to the rubber cuff that grabs onto the mic body? If so what is the actual usable unblocked open space depth inside the windscreen, between the furthest forward edge of the cuff and the "bottom of the well" inside the windscreen?
Thinking I may need the 60 or 70 rather than the 50.
I just measured mine with my digital calipers, and get about 55 mm from the "furthest forward edge" as you put it to the bottom-out point. I can poke my pinky finger just about all the way in. In practice, I leave a couple cm airspace from the end of the capsule as I imagine most people do, so 50 mm is probably Movo's nominal measurement of effective depth.
The rubber cuff ring is recessed maybe 1 cm where it meets the mic compared to the outer part, and I did not add that to the above measurement.
What mics are you potentially using these with?
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DPA 4098H supercardioids. Essentially looks like a 4060/4061 omni body, but with two tiny vents on the back, plus a tiny interference tube grid about 4cm long extending out front. An integral short goose neck extends out the back. The mic is a bit smaller in diameter than a pencil. As supercards they are rather wind and handling-noise sensitive. They are quite small and light, but require just as much wind protection outdoors as larger mics.
The irony not lost on you or other experienced tapers is that small and inexpensive mics (granted these are tiny yet not inexpensive) require just as much wind and vibration isolation as larger more costly mics.
To use BAS with these I first insert each mic into an dollar store open-cell foam hair-curler spindle measuring about 24mm in diameter X 57mm or so long that has a bore through the center perfectly sized for inserting the mic. That serves as an acoustically transparent sizing adapter to bring teh microphone up to more "standard" mic dimensions so that it fits perfectly into a BAS.
I plan to do the same with the Movos, except close off the rear entry behind hair-curler foam somehow to seal wind entry from the back, and will likely need to also use whatever structure does that to physically support the Movo cuff in two of the five total microphone positions in which I intend to use them. Two other positions will have the Movo supported directly by the mic bar (a thin TV antenna) piercing though the Movo at an angle (which is how I currently support the BAS in those positions).
The last position is a Naiant X-8 fig-8 + a 4098H gaff taped atop it to from a Mid/Side pair. That pair fits directly into a BAS. I plan to also use a Movo there, which won't need the hair curler foam as the X-8 body is an XLR connector, but will likely need to be longer. Need to measure it. Trick with this pair will be if the X-8 mic head can be fitted through the Movo cuff. It fits through the BAS cuff with some stretching, photo of it here-
X-8
(https://naiantstudio.files.wordpress.com/2021/02/bc38e-x-8s-350.jpg?w=1060)
First image below is the DPA 4098H (shows the included thin DPA windscreen which is useless).
Following images show the hair curler foam insert fitting into a Windtech windscreen suitable for indoor use of the 4098. Works exactly the same with the larger BAS for outdoor use, except the BAS needs additional support as the integral gooseneck on the 4098 is not strong enough to support the added weight.
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Movo 'ballistic' series screens are available in many sizes. Order direct.
https://www.movophoto.com/collections/windscreens/products/wst-premium-ballistic-nylon-windscreen
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Gutbucket,
I do not think the rubber cuff on on the Movo screens is stretchy enough to go over the business end of your X-8. It fits very tightly around 20 mm mics. The inside is also not really foam, but that springy plastic sponge material. It compresses and springs back to shape just fine, but it doesn't feel to me that it would stretch much at all without tearing apart.
For your DPAs, I cannot imagine you would need something with greater depth than the WST50, unless I missed something in your description.
As for sealing the rear - I happened to be at the homebrew store today picking up supplies, and there were bins of drilled rubber stoppers / bungs of various sizes. You might be able to find one that has a center drilled hole of the right size to fit those mics (or you could easily enlarge it) and also an outside diameter to seal the rubber cuff on the screens.
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If necessary I can cut a small slit in the Movo rubber cuff to get the X-8 through. Might also need to cut a notch to accommodate the 4098 gooseneck. I think the springy plastic low pore-count foam you mention inside the Movo is the same as what is inside the BAS. Primary difference, other than the Movo's rubber cuff, is BAS using an exterior foam shell with a high pore-count verses the fabric (or fur) shell of the Movo. I modified the internal foam of the BAS a bit to better fit the X-8 head so that it would not compact the foam too much.
Here's a photo of the Mid/Side pair combination of X-8 & 4098-
(http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=96009.0;attach=121521;image)
The only significant difference between this photo and my current implementation is that the X-8 is supported by a mic-clip rather than being taped directly to the mic-bar. To get the two capsules vertically aligned, you can see how the interference tube of the 4098 extends forward of the capsule head of the X-8, making the assembly longer than either the 4098 or X-8 alone, so a somewhat longer Movo is likely to be needed for this position. I'll order a few to play around with the single 4098 positions first before I move forward with this more complicated one.
Yes a rubber stopper may work well for the single 4098's. Could use a double hole stopper, or drill a second hole to fit it onto the short antenna mic-bar which supports it, about the same diameter as the microphone.
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Shure A81WS / Movo WST100 comparison-
I received a Movo WST100 yesterday. Externally, it is almost exactly the size as the Shure A81WS (aka Shure big ass wind screen), maybe a centimeter longer. Internal depth is quite different however. The Movo is 4" (100mm) deep while the Shure is 2.5" (65mm) deep. Difference is due to the Shure having a thicker piece of internal large-cell foam at the front end of the windscreen, preventing insertion of the mic as far as it can be inserted into the Movo. The Shure design helps keep the mic diaphragm properly centered in the windscreen. With the Movo one can insert the mic farther, but shouldn't if looking for best wind noise reduction performance, as there would then be considerably less less dead air space at the end of the mic, on-axis directly in front of the diaphragm, than there is out toward the sides.
This may explain the Movo not working as well as it can for some folks. When using them in very windy conditions don't push them on as far as they will go, but rather only so far as to achieve about the same thickness of windscreen all around the capsule. [edit- or rather, somewhat more in front than the sides. The Shure encapsulates substantially more dead air space in the front than the sides, something like twice as much. That kind of distribution is something commonly seen in the design of slip on foam windscreens, and something I've always wondered about]
The tl;dr- in the Movo lineup it appears that the number following WST is the intended insertion depth in millimeters.. yet one can insert the mic farther if needed, likely the risk of less wind noise suppression.
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The Movo is nicely constructed. The rubber cuff is more flexible than I expected. I don't think I'll have a problem getting the X-8 mic head through there, but I'll be sending this one back as it is longer than I need, and will wait to receive a shorter one before trying to do so.
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The Movo is nicely constructed. The rubber cuff is more flexible than I expected. I don't think I'll have a problem getting the X-8 mic head through there, but I'll be sending this one back as it is longer than I need, and will wait to receive a shorter one before trying to do so.
Thanks for sharing your report on the WST100. I am curious to hear what you find in regards to HF attenuation (or lack therof). Besides the better wind protection, that was the other big benefit I found with the Movo WST compared to all other windscreen types I had tried previously.
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Will do, once I reconfigure and tape something in windy conditions.
Here is a visual comparison of WST80, WST100, and A81WS. The paper strip indicates the "just touching" internal depth of each. A microphone can easily be pushed in somewhat further with the Movos. WST100 is about 1cm longer overall than BAS externally, WST80 a bit less than 1cm shorter.
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Ordered five WST50 direct from Movo to try in place of the BAS before a weekend of recording but they mistakenly sent WST100s instead. Returning them today for the 50's. I asked if WST60 or 70 might be available as those are likely to be a more optimal fit for my use, but was told those have not been made in years and there is no remaining stock.
I did use a single WST80 in place of BAS in the center M/S position in my rig. In trying to stretch the rubber cuff to get the head of the Naiant X-8 through it I ended up ripping the cuff, but just gaff taped that up. There was no significant wind all weekend so no test on that account. I will listen to see if I can hear any difference in high-frequency attenuation in that center M/S position in comparison to other recordings made in the same venue, but the PA was changed and the mix sounded brighter listening live with earplugs out, so a good feel for response differences will have to come later..