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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: it-goes-to-eleven on January 07, 2006, 08:09:03 PM
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Okay.. Just doing a bunch of cable work. I have used the NC3MX-B Neutriks in the past without issue. They've modified the design. It was clearly done to save money and it sucks.
The oh so critical plastic piece that holds the connector pins has been greatly lightened and thinned. I'm having a little trouble with pins sliding around when hot. I never had this issue with the old style. They really took a lot of thermal mass out.
Kinda bummed.. Maybe this is an effort to force people to use a more expensive connector.
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pic of connectors?
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Found another problem with them.. The solder cups are normally all 'level'. On just one of the connectors, the middle cup was level but the two side cups were rotated out somewhat.
The other thing.. The pins pop back when they reach a certain temp. You're putting heat in, waiting for complete flow and then pop.. The pin backs up about 1/32 to maybe 3/64". It doesn't matter whether there is any force on the pin when this happens. You see it move.
I'll try and post a pic.. gotta finish this cable for a show tonight.
Cheapness for cheapness sake is a drag.
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Pics. The bag for the old/good version is on the left, new/bad right.
Note the removal of material from the OD in addition to the hole.
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That's interesting. I just ordered a good amount of these from Markertek. They are all the old design fwiw. Where did you get these Brian?
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Markertek, of course.
The low heat tolerance of the new design is especially troublesome with lead free solders that require approximately 100F more heat to fully wet out. That's when the pins pop and distort.
The increased heat of the lead free process is a big concern in the industry and it seems like everyone is moving in the opposite direction from N. - toward accomodating that increased heat.
I'll be calling them shortly..
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+T for pointing this out. Let us know what their response is.
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I spoke with an engineer at Neutrik USA. He was surprised at the situation and said he was unaware of any changes. I just forwarded the photos and am awaiting further info.
If you look closely at the first pic above, you can see how the left solder cup is rotated compared to the others.
He said that they have had some problems with counterfeiting. Many of the Neutrik Speakon stuff on ebay is fake. He said Markertek is a distributor and anything from them is legit. At the NAIM conference, they had a company pushing counterfeit stuff two asiles over. Their stuff even had the Neutrik logos on it.
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WoW, that's ballsey selling conterfeit stuff with the companies logo on it at an event like that.
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FYI - my last batch from Markertek was mixed. The NC3MX were all the "new" style, while the NC3MXB (black body, gold pins) were all the "old" style.
You're right - there's really a lot of plastic mass removed in the new design.
- Jason
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WoW, that's ballsey selling conterfeit stuff with the companies logo on it at an event like that.
Wow. I didn't think there was a market for counterfeit cable interconnects. Mics I can see but cables?
That's really crappy. I guess people should just stick with Markertek.
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Wow. I didn't think there was a market for counterfeit cable interconnects. Mics I can see but cables?
That's really crappy. I guess people should just stick with Markertek.
Well, I've got some "new" or "fake" ones from Markertek. I don't think there's anything fake about these... just a redesign that Neutrik folks are unaware of or unwilling to admit.
- Jason
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[Well, I've got some "new" or "fake" ones from Markertek. I don't think there's anything fake about these... just a redesign that Neutrik folks are unaware of or unwilling to admit.
- Jason
I just got a batch from Markertek just before the holidays. All of mine were the new design as well...
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thanks for the pics, thats crazy, I always loved my old Neutriks, the HD version is THA SHIZZLE, hope they recall all of those fuckers and get their shit back together
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Thanks for that update, Moke. That is really important. Could you be more specific in regard to what you're plugging into, etc.
Quick update..
I have had some discussions with an engineer at Neutrik. He was unaware of this change but has since determined that it is a change. They have merged a couple of parts. No doubt to cut costs. The old part is not available.
They seem to think the new part solders okay. The engineer wants me to send samples of the parts I have in case there is a consistency issue. He is not happy about the change and is passing my concerns up the chain. This is a large company and I don't expect any quick fixes.
Guess I'm going to have to look at other Neutrik connectors and other vendors.
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I had better luck using one of those new funky "cold heat" soldering irons with the new Neutrik plugs. For the most part, I'm not a huge fan of the new soldering iron except when away from an AC outlet, but it does seem to bring the solder up to its melting point very quickly and seems not to result in damaged plastic from excess heat. YMMV. Regardless, the new Neutrik connectors are definitely a step in the wrong direction.
- Jason
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This sucks, but is there any real choice beyond Neutrik?
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I've used Deltron in the past and been happy with them except they don't make a right angle connector. I know Switchcraft also makes XLR connectors, including right angles, but I've never used them. I'm sure there are other companies that make XLR connectors besides Neutrik. Deltron amd Switchcraft.
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Pomona Electronics makes XLr's, and Newark Electronics carries them. The Pomona catalog is here:
http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/broadcast/2152248_w.pdf
Amphenol also makes XLr's, and at least one place that carries them is procosound. You have to scroll past the Neutrik connectors to get to the Amphenols:
http://www.procosound.com/downloads/ProCo_bulkparts.pdf
Both of the above connectors appear to be similar to the construction of the Neutriks (i.e. more modern looking than the old Switchcraft connectors.)
'Hope that helps.
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The CEO of Neutrik called me this morning from Germany.
More details to follow. Never underestimate the German commitment to quality!
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The CEO of Neutrik called me this morning from Germany.
More details to follow. Never underestimate the German commitment to quality!
Wow! Curious to hear what comes of this!
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I've just ordered some Neutrik XLR connectors here in Germany. I'm quite curious as to whether or not they have the new version here, too ;)
Oh, and the company is actually from the small country of Liechtenstein, not Germany.
Edit: Got the connectors today. They are still the old (good) design.
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So where are we on the connectors... Just ordered a dozen sets from Markerteck and I can only figure they will be the "new" type?
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i've also had troubel w/the neutric connectors...same issues. hot pins start to move around in the plastic. shoddy quality. I'd like to explore other options as well.
"vee germans are not a varlike people"
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So.. As I understand the situation..
The material was removed from the connector in the new design to provide better mold release and precision. During molding, plastic parts must cool slightly in order for them to shrink and release from the mold. That void in the center allows the shrinkage to be more uniform and probably a little quicker. It is hard to get a solid plug or cylinder to shrink uniformly.
In Neutrik testing, both new and old components begin to melt after the same amount of time under the iron. They do not recommend you go beyond that point. It is about 10 to 12 seconds of heat (though it depends on your iron).
My impression is that the old connectors were more stable when taken beyond that point. Sure, the plastic may melt at the same pin temp. But a slice of butter melts faster than a chunk.
In order to maintain pin alignment, I recommend plugging in another connector to at least maintain alignment.
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Welp, I'm just reporting what I was able to find out. I will forward the new comments on.
Given what people pay for WBT RCAs, some money could probably be made selling high quality teflon XLR's. Though I do love telling audiophiles that the mic connectors that made the recording cost less than $3.
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I also try to use a minimum of solder on the pins - generally you can still see the wire outline. Just create flow.
Make sure your tip is fresh - if its not melting your solder wire easily - replace...
I hate those old switchcraft A3Ms - the pins are hollow!!! - I got good working on those suckers!
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Some don't like working with lead solder because it's a health risk.
High silver content solder does melt at higher temperatures.
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Lead free solder is going to become a larger and larger issued, especially as July 1, 2006 approaches. That's the date at which the RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) Directive is to go into effect in Europe. One of the prime objectives of that directive is to remove lead from the materials that are used to manufacture electronics. Lead-free solder tends to have a higher melting temperature and tends to crystalize more readily than its lead-bearing counterpart that most people are familar with.
http://www.pb-free.info/laymans_terms.htm (http://www.pb-free.info/laymans_terms.htm)
http://www.rohs.gov.uk/ (http://www.rohs.gov.uk/)
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As always, SparkE! brings the word.
I don't follow the inside electronics news at all so I'm a little surprised by this actually. How hazardous is a little lead on some electronic gear? Kids gonna start sucking PCBs? ::)
I suppose in mass recycling efforts the lead content of gear (TV, radios, etc.) would be something significant to deal with... but then you'd expect them to be able to cope with that, wouldn't you?
I'm off now to RS to buy a few dozen tubes of silver solder for my old age... ;)
I have noticed that the RS no lead, silver solder crystalizes fast and cools to look like a cold solder connection. I didn't care for it. YMMV
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Yeah, they claim it's an issue because the lead leaches out of the solder joints when the electronics end up in a landfill. My first response was "what, do they think that people eat the electronics out of their trash?", but I guess it could make a difference in the lead content of ponds in areas that are downsteam of the landfill. I don't think I'd want to eat fish out of a farm pond that's downhill from a landfill anyway, but I guess that elevated lead levels would make it particularly bad.
On using the stuff, I've found that it takes an iron that's about 65 or 70 degrees (F) hotter than I liked to use on regular old 60/40 tin/lead resin core solder like I learned on. And I've found that you pretty much have to use some sort of additional solder flux too. You can't just rely on the flux that's contained in the solder because it's consumed so quickly. The kind I use is a liquid flux. I basically flood the area around the intended solder joint with liquid flux, then make the solder joint as quickly as I can. The solder joint has to flow and then you'll see it flash shiny over the surface. If you haven't run out of flux by then, that's the time to pull your soldering iron out of the joint. The thing is, if you allow the surface to crystalize, it makes the solder joint weak and worse yet, it makes it possible to get "solder whiskers". Solder whiskers are crystalized metal that continues to crystalize further long after the solder joint was made. In the process, long crystals of metal form and protrude from the surface of the solder joint. They can grow long enough that they short adjacent pins on ICs or make other unintentional circuit jumpers.
It's not hard to make a good lead-free solder joint if you have coordination, a good view of the solder joint, a good, well-tinned iron and plenty of flux. You just don't have as long to make the joint. On larger solder joint where it takes too long to heat the joint, you may have to apply flux after the joint has been flowed and while the soldering iron is still in contact with the joint.
After you figure out how to use the lead-free solder, it's really not that hard to use, but you can sure mess stuff up before you figure it out.
At this time, the US will continue to allow the sale of electronics that has leaded solder, but more and more you will see electronics that are made with lead free solder. The company I work for is going 100% lead free because they sell into Europe. In the process, the US will get lead free parts too. Over time, it will probably be hard to get leaded solder, except from industrial supply houses. The stuff that they sell consumers will probably go lead free. At least that's my take on it.
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General Electric Soldering Paste - No 293
Thats the flux I've been using...this stuff is probably from the 1950s...
Hope this stuff is ok...seems to do the job...
The silver joints do look different...doesnt seem like the solder builds up as much...but they alwasy seem strong...