Topic: Taping outdoors with omnis, stack taping or FOB?

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi all,

there is another factor in favor of omnis: they are much less sensitive to wind noise than cardioids. It was an eye opener for me when I started recording outdoors with a Sennheiser MKE2002 artificial head: much less wind noise!

To reach that low level of wind noise with cardioids, you have to work really hard with "dead kittens" and other furry beasts. And then there is the question of tradeoff: more wind suppression means more attenuation of the high end - a choice between the plague and cholera...

Greetings,

Rainer

[aaronji]

But on the practical question of what mics will best reproduce the concert experience,  I staunchly support omnis unless you are in a situation where you know you will need to reject a roof echo, a balcony reverb, a chatterbox crowd, etc.

Yes, well, that's a different question entirely!  Much more in the realm of subjective opinion, whereas the directionality of human hearing is considerably more objective...And, for what it's worth, I like omnis too.  They don't work for all of the people all of the time, though...

Between the ear pickup pattern and the noggin processor, the hearing experience  feels omni--like that polar pattern and its mirror image (from the other ear) superimposed.  We merge the channels in our heads to provide the illusion of a stable 360-degree sound field with spatial imaging.

The problem with that, I think, is that omnis in and of themselves won't give you much in the way of spatial imaging (at least at spacings similar to ears).  Some of the spatial cues that get you closer to how your ears hear things can be introduced (HRTF/binaural, dummy heads), but then you are altering the pick-up characteristics of the mics.  The bottom line is it is practically impossible to give a recording all of the subtle cues your brain uses to hear in three dimensions.  There was a paper posted here once, by John Willet (I think), that described how the first dummy heads were made.  Very interesting to read about the stream of complications they faced...

[Gutbucket]

But on the practical question of what mics will best reproduce the concert experience,  I staunchly support omnis unless you are in a situation where you know you will need to reject a roof echo, a balcony reverb, a chatterbox crowd, etc.

Between the ear pickup pattern and the noggin processor, the hearing experience  feels omni--like that polar pattern and its mirror image (from the other ear) superimposed.  We merge the channels in our heads to provide the illusion of a stable 360-degree sound field with spatial imaging.

The bottom line is it is practically impossible to give a recording all of the subtle cues your brain uses to hear in three dimensions.

If 'you are there' concert realism is really the goal, mulitple recording and reproduction channels gets far closer than trying to do it with only two channels of whatever microphone pattern.  In fact I've come to feel that capturing the direct/reverberant, front/back, near/far sense of enveloping depth and space is more important (and often more useful to record in a way which allows one to manage it) than Left/Right imaging.

[newplanet7]

I was at a concert last night, swiveling my head to look across a big stage and occasionally bopping along--omnis in a more fixed position on the shirt collar--and I realized that if I had had ear-mounted cardioids, the recording would have been a very seasick thing.  Maybe XY or ORTF cardioids stably mounted in a sweet spot would be good too, would eliminate that backless void I hear (or don't hear)  in front-facing cardioid recordings. Never tried it. But in the rough-and-tumble of concert recording,  I'd always go for omnis as the first choice.

The phasing happens with omnis too, albeit not as bold.
On the bolded part of your quote, are you referring to cards in an A/B fashion where you state "front facing cadioids"?
Also, just one of many situations but, say running cards onstage, what benefit would it be to hear whats in back of you?
I can't really think of me ever wanting to hear whats behind me on a recording.
Also judging by the bolded sentence, it tells me that you haven't really experimented with cardioids too much. Probably has some to do about
your preference of omnis. You need to find a great little onstage pull with cards and throw on the headphones and be set adrift.
Ahhh, here's one.  http://archive.org/details/ClubdElf2012-02-17.milab-vm44.flac16


Lastly,(thinking out loud here), both omnis and cards obviously yield great stereo concert recordings. In order for me
to fully experience/appreciate what's capable because I don't have a great playback system, I believe headphones are a must for the stereo field becoming alive.
For about two years now 80% of playback of live tapes are through headphones for me. I love 'phones

[jbou]

Not on topic, but I got lost after we started on ears 

For about two years now 80% of playback of live tapes are through headphones for me.

This is where I'm at. I don't have anything for a good two channel system. I use laptop > Fiio E10 > Audio Technica ATH-M50.

[Gutbucket]

I can't really think of me ever wanting to hear whats behind me on a recording.

I really dig having control over the balance between direct sound and room sound.  It's more basic and important to me than Left/Right soundstage balance.  Perhaps without recognizing fully what we are doing, we typically control and adjust that by choosing where to put the microphones, choosing the mic pattern and mic'ing configuration.   I often go farther and use an extra channel, two or three, facing forward and backwards to get more control and options over that.  For surround the use of those extra channels are obvious, for stereo (speakers or phones) it's a way of tweaking that all important balance between direct and room sound.  In a good room you can hear the architecture, the 3D bass bloom, the signature reverberance off the ceiling/back wall, the crowd reaction (in the correct level and timbre- not too loud, yet not muffled).  In a bad room you can limit the contribution of all those things (and yeah, I realize that often all those things are more sucky than sweet, and the goal is often to eleminate much of the suck, yet carry that line of thought to an extreme and you have a dry, lifeless SBD tape).  Basically, recording what's behind you can give you a greater sense of real-ness.. a greater sense of you are there vereses you are listening through a window... all assuming that's a good place where you want to be.

 
You need to find a great little onstage pull with cards and throw on the headphones and be set adrift.
Ahhh, here's one.  http://archive.org/details/ClubdElf2012-02-17.milab-vm44.flac16

QFT! Love onstage dElft! Serious 'you are there' mental driftage potential in many of those recordings.  I need to give that one a listen. 
Phones can be excellent teleportation time-machine portals!