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Author Topic: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022  (Read 7604 times)

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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2022, 05:57:22 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline kindms

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2022, 06:37:26 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox.

I wonder how much schoeps being one of the only serious mics to have modular options in years past played in to that. lovely microphones either way
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2022, 07:16:23 PM »
So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

"Best mikes you can afford" is going to vary depending on, well, what you can afford. Agreed that those are the best, though, for those who can front the money.

Online checht

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2022, 09:18:07 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox.
Concur with above and want to offer an alternate theory.
Not sure we can count on this being a causal relationship. What if all the 'best' tapers use Schoeps/Neumanns, and their expertise puts them reliably in the sweet spot, allows them to do great post-productoin work, etc?

Correlation looks a lot like causation in the real world. Just sayin'
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2022, 10:38:58 PM »
Having used Churchs, some other kind I cannot now remember, DPA and Schoeps and borrowed Neumanns, this is what I found:

Being in a crappy location (under a balcony, at the back of the theater, next to some talkers, or over at the side), what I found was that good microphones do a better job in a crappy location than cheaper microphones; and conversely, a crappy microphone in a great location can make a good tape.  Obviously, good microphones in a good location make as good a tape as one can get.  Small clubs or stack tapes close in?  DPAs did really well and are excellent stealth mikes. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2022, 10:57:41 PM »
Everything devolves into a shoeps or everything else argument. It’s so lame.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2022, 04:39:18 AM »
There's also a omnis VS cards question you'll have to ask yourself.

I've always found Schoeps cards to be surgically precise... to the point I sometimes feel like listening to raw studio recordings rushes  where all the post processing and mastering work (eq, reverb, delay, compression, and so on...) is missing.

That's why I tend to prefer omnis over cards. It's, a live event we're trying to document.

It's a matter of taste. Again, I won't spit on a Schoeps tape. I won't spit on any decent recording tape. It's been said before but reaching the sweet spot is more than half the job done.

I bet you 99.99999% of the tapers would favor omnis if stars where always aligned regarding taping conditions (sweet sounding spot, sweet audience, sweet everything). Cards and subcards are better at cutting the shit off. Omnis are better at capturing the whole experience of a live concert.

BTW: Can we get anything better than DPA's for omnis???
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 05:50:52 AM by fandelive »
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2022, 01:11:24 PM »
Everything devolves into a shoeps or everything else argument. It’s so lame.

No, Neumanns are also perfectly good microphones, and with good placement, AKG and DPAs are fine as well.  The DPA Card is a little big to stealth, but is doable.  The DPA Omni is a wonderful sounding microphone for small clubs or close in and ridiculously easy to steath. 

I did sound for a summer and while certainly do no have the knowledge that others here do, but .... when picking a microphone for a band or instrument, it really depends on the band, the sound you want to achieve, and the instrument.  There is no one size fits all. 

For super loud rock music on the balcony, I would pick an MK41 or a KM184.  I'm sure others with more experience than I would have other ideas as well. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2022, 05:15:23 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

Offline vanark

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2022, 06:43:52 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

Yes, pretty lame sometimes and it gets tiring. Plenty of people with expensive gear make crappy tapes and plenty of folks with budget gear make great tapes.

Buy the gear at a price point you are comfortable with and figure out how to tape, figure out if the hobby is for you. If you think you might want to upgrade in the future, buy used and you can resell without a big loss. Or buy new if that is what you want. Whatever works for you. I don't think this hobby is for everyone and would hate to see someone spend $3K only to find out they hate it.
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2022, 06:57:17 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

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Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2022, 07:18:02 PM »
Like anything else, you can spend whatever your budget allows and get varying results.  There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that.  It's not a bad suggestion to listen to a bunch of tapes and see if there are mics you like better than others. Combined that with the various form factor issues, you might save yourself a lot of gear churn, and be happier sooner. 

Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2022, 08:41:38 PM »
Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.

 ::) this is the exact sentiment that I'm talking about. Least expensive =/= unknown shit gear. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that
I mean it kinda is. Microphones are different and serve different functions, have different pickup patterns, and different freq response over those pickup patterns. Just because one costs more absolutely does not make it "better" for every scenario.

Offline dyneq

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2022, 08:45:17 PM »
OP, regarding your original question:

Since his location may not be optimal (under PA and existence of fills unknown), suggest that you loan him one of your setups as a proof of concept. Perhaps omnis > bb > easy to operate recorder. Spend some time showing him how to rig & record and encourage him to practice until he’s got it down.

If he’s still excited about it after the experience itself & post-processing steps, then you guys can discuss specific rig choices. I really hope this opportunity works out and that we’ll see his stuff in the kickdown! ^-^

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2022, 08:52:59 PM »
Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.

 ::) this is the exact sentiment that I'm talking about. Least expensive =/= unknown shit gear. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

I didn't say least expensive was unknown shit gear.  Lots of inexpensive gear is plenty good for what we do. But on a whole, the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  But any tape that gets made is better than one that doesn't.

There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that
I mean it kinda is. Microphones are different and serve different functions, have different pickup patterns, and different freq response over those pickup patterns. Just because one costs more absolutely does not make it "better" for every scenario.

We're not talking about every scenario, we're talking about recording live music unobtrusively.  And yes, some microphones are absolutely better than others.
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