Topic: R4 & R44 A>D Questions

[datbrad]

I thought the R44's gain controls were all analog, but I may be wrong. In general, I have always looked at mic preamps as a method to decouple the gain for the mic from the recorder, to feed the recorder a clean line level signal without trying to boost a mic's output of quiet material, or harness a mic's output of loud material, using just the recorder's single set of gain controls. However, the R44 has the ability to control preamp gain like an outboard pre with the outside knob controls, and trim the levels from there. To my thinking, this makes the ACM R44 a decent choice for an all in one 4 channel, just like the FR2LE is as a 2 channel box.

[F0CKER]

So am I reading this accurately, the sensitivity controls, i.e. inner knobs are analog, and the trim controls, i.e. outer knob are digital gain?

[carlbeck]

So am I reading this accurately, the sensitivity controls, i.e. inner knobs are analog, and the trim controls, i.e. outer knob are digital gain?

I don't really know, I thought it was reversed?

[F0CKER]

I'm confused....I probably need to see the deck first.  We can agree, though, one gain controls the analog gain, and another controls digital gain, correct?

[carlbeck]

I'm confused....I probably need to see the deck first.  We can agree, though, one gain controls the analog gain, and another controls digital gain, correct?

I am not so sure, I tried to download the manual but couldn't. Here is what I read in the Team R-44 thread:


***

 
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2008, 08:11:56 PM »
 
 
how can you tell if clipping is about to happen at the "sensitivity" stage??
You have to record with the inner continuously variable knob (digital gain) at 'noon' and the meters will then be your guide to preamp level.
   

[kirk97132]

Not to seem like a wise ass, although maybe I am but when I was considering buying an R-44 I looked at these first
R-44 in recorders:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.0/all.html

Team R-44
 http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.0.html

That will answer all your questions in stead of speculating what knob does what when and how much.  Oh yeah I did buy one and I run a Edirol UA-5 BM2p+ and a Sound Devices MP-2 in front of it, Kirk

[F0CKER]

Sorry for asking the question somebody probably knows the answert o and can tell me quickly vs reading through 25 pages of threads to get to my answer.  I read most of those thread, BTW....they were helpful.

I'll take the long windy road next time.

thanks for your help!

[carlbeck]

Sorry for asking the question somebody probably knows the answert o and can tell me quickly vs reading through 25 pages of threads to get to my answer.  I read most of those thread, BTW....they were helpful.

I'll take the long windy road next time.

thanks for your help!

Yep you wouldn't think this would be so hard to figure out, Plus T to ya Focker.

[carlbeck]

OK, from Ozpeter who seems to know his shit regarding this unit with the various testing he has done, page 4 in R-44 PTII:

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

[F0CKER]

That's what I wanted to know.  +T's all around.

[Ozpeter]

I guess we are going back over the ground a bit here, but with several long threads to plough through that's likely to happen! 

If you good people are considering the R-44 - which I love to bits - there's one downside which does affect my use of it, and that's lack of properly mixed monitoring.  When recording, you can't vary per channel the level and pan of each of the four into the headphones.  Each channel can be heard on its own in mono, or you can hear the first pair in stereo, or the second pair in stereo, or all in mono.   You can vary the channel levels on playback - there's a menu screen with four individual faders, though it doesn't work when recording - but again, you can't control pan.

So say you were recording a vocal quartet standing in a line, and you had a mic for each of them, you would not be able to have channel one hard left, channel two slightly left, channel three slightly right, and channel four hard right in the headphones.  It would come up as one left, two right, three left, four right, or you'd have to use mono.  Or if  you want to use a stereo pair plus a spot, the spot will always come up on the left side as there's no way to have stereo on one and two plus channel three on the right (or centre).

So if you need that kind of monitoring, you have to use a separate monitor mixer, which is a pity - and there's currently a surprising lack of suitable small 4-lines-into-two mixers on the market.  But if you just want to check that you've got a problem-free sound in each channel, and you don't need a balanced playback till you get home, it's fine.

[digifish_music]

Not to seem like a wise ass, although maybe I am but when I was considering buying an R-44 I looked at these first
...  Oh yeah I did buy one and I run a Edirol UA-5 BM2p+ and a Sound Devices MP-2 in front of it, Kirk

It's good to be wise +T

BTW: What are you recording?

digifish

[illconditioned]

I guess we are going back over the ground a bit here, but with several long threads to plough through that's likely to happen! 

If you good people are considering the R-44 - which I love to bits - there's one downside which does affect my use of it, and that's lack of properly mixed monitoring.  When recording, you can't vary per channel the level and pan of each of the four into the headphones.  Each channel can be heard on its own in mono, or you can hear the first pair in stereo, or the second pair in stereo, or all in mono.   You can vary the channel levels on playback - there's a menu screen with four individual faders, though it doesn't work when recording - but again, you can't control pan.

Yes, it would be great to hear a mix of the show as you record, but hearing each channel alone is probably sufficient for most people.  You can hear if any individual channel is clipping or distorting, which is the main thing.

  Richard

[F0CKER]

That won't be an issue for me, but good to know regardless.  Cheers!

[BayTaynt3d]

I basically leave the inner at midnight (zero) and only use the outer. And interestingly, I thought I would be bummed about the stepping, but after using it, I actually like the known-quantity in stepping, it helps reverse a mid-show move easily in my DAW. Basically, if I'm forced to jump it up/down, all I have to do is remember the rough timecode of the change. Then once home, I just find that timecode in my DAW and add a volume envelope (aka level automation) and bump it or drop it by an even 6 db -- done, and near-perfect reversal at that! BTW, the unit is amazing, and that's all I have to say on the matter. It's really the unit I always wanted when I ran a stock R4 for two years. Thank you Edirol!