Author Topic: New Zoom? (Read 23819 times)

landshark · « **on:** January 06, 2009, 09:21:47 AM »

FYI:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/06/samson-delivering-zoom-h4n-handheld-recording-device-at-ces/

Mike

flintstone · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2009, 10:18:59 AM »

Nice find. Looks like the mic capsules are positioned one above the other, as X-Y theory requires, instead of just pointing at each other like Sony and Yamaha's portables do. Anyone going to CES or NAMM?

Flintstone

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2009, 10:25:13 AM »

Quote

ability to use internal and external mics simultaneously for 4-channel recording

leehookem · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2009, 10:34:00 AM »

Kevin T · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2009, 11:29:52 AM »

Mana from the Zoom Gods to us bottom feeders:) Now with my H2 & one of these I can do 6channels

digifish_music · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2009, 05:36:50 PM »

Cool, also looks to be true coincident XY for all the mic-placement pedants

boojum · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2009, 06:01:31 PM »

Tasty. The one question is price.

gossling · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2009, 06:20:22 PM »

Quote from: boojum on January 06, 2009, 06:01:31 PM

Tasty. The one question is price.

From CNET (http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-10131461-100.html?part=rss&subj=Crave):

Quote

No word on pricing or availability, but Zoom has historically kept its portable recorders in the $200 to $300 range. (Update: Pricing on the Zoom H4n is expected to be $500 MSRP, with an expected street price around $349.)

That's a good price...very good price.

One site said that Zoom was going to release it at CES...does "release" mean show off, or actually release to the general public?

drewloo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2009, 01:11:01 PM »

here's a little review from cnet.

http://ces.cnet.com/2300-19506_1-10000185-1.html?s=0&o=10000185&tag=mncol;page

Will_S · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2009, 02:26:03 PM »

Quote from: digifish_music on January 06, 2009, 05:36:50 PM

Cool, also looks to be true coincident XY for all the mic-placement pedants

Also looks like the mics are angled more than 90° apart, which is good too.

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2009, 03:09:45 PM »

so for 4 channels, can you only use the internal mics and line in, or can you use external mics with line in, or internals with externals?

did i make sense there?

flintstone · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2009, 07:46:42 PM »

A report from CES said that the four channels come from two internal mics plus two external mics, or two internal mics plus a stereo line input. The XLR inputs can be used for mic or line level input. The internal mic capsules can be rotated so the angle between them is either 90 or 120 degrees.

boojum · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2009, 07:59:55 PM »

Quote from: flintstone on January 11, 2009, 07:46:42 PM

A report from CES said that the four channels come from two internal mics plus two external mics, or two internal mics plus a stereo line input. The XLR inputs can be used for mic or line level input. The internal mic capsules can be rotated so the angle between them is either 90 or 120 degrees.

I think we have a winner.

Ozpeter · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:34:27 PM »

I think we have an invention looking for a use - or am I being unimaginative?

gossling · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:30:47 PM »

Quote from: Ozpeter on January 11, 2009, 10:34:27 PM

I think we have an invention looking for a use - or am I being unimaginative?

One could feed a soundboard or mixer to the H4n's line-in and record what's actually being heard by the audience with its internal microphones. Then mix in post. I don't know...just one possible use, I guess.

What I hope to do for my classical/acoustic applications, assuming its internal microphones are usable (yes, I realize this is quite an assumption), is just record the hall with the internal microphones (facing the audience) and connect a stereo pair of SDCs to its microphone inputs as the main pair. Just because I don't have the money for a proper 4-channel recorder. Not sure if this is a bad idea.

Ozpeter · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2009, 03:32:26 AM »

I think the practical problem would be getting levels correct for internal and external mics when the location you've set up the recorder in (to get the internal mics in a good spot) would not necessarily readily allow you to see what's going on in the display. Of course this is a factor when using any recorder with built in mics but once you've connected remote mics, I'd suppose you would be trying to make a more serious recording than the kind of point-and-shoot that recording with internal mics tends to imply.

Still, I guess it's another style of tool for the tool box and it will prove dead handy for a certain category of user.

Kevin T · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:51:16 PM »

gossling

I believe in researching a purchase as much as the next Guy but Scheeeesh

Theres only so much you can learn from forum opinions etc. I mean Aint it time to sh_ _ or get of the pot

Buy the H4n or something so you can start the hard work of learning mic Placement and post DAW surgery etc. Just a old ZoomHeads suggestion

PS

I just bought my son a Tascam Dr-1 cause its more MUSO centric and Loud Band friendly !

KT

gossling · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:16:22 PM »

Quote from: Kevin T on January 12, 2009, 06:51:16 PM

gossling

I believe in researching a purchase as much as the next Guy but Scheeeesh Theres only so much you can learn from forum opinions etc. I mean Aint it time to sh_ _ or get of the pot Buy the H4n or something so you can start the hard work of learning mic Placement and post DAW surgery etc. Just a old ZoomHeads suggestion

Haha! So true. In fairness to myself, I have bought three recorders thus far. Returned two and waiting to return the third. And I will buy this H4n. It has just about everything I've been looking for. Just wish it would come out already!

dogmusic · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2009, 09:38:50 AM »

There are some helpful photos here:

http://ces.cnet.com/2300-19506_1-10000185-1.html?s=0&o=10000185&tag=mncol;page

It looks like there might be an additional mini-jack mic input on the back.

This might be the unit that those of us who bought and returned the H2 were looking for.

vegas06 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:02:29 PM »

Quote from: Dogmusic on January 13, 2009, 09:38:50 AM

There are some helpful photos here:

http://ces.cnet.com/2300-19506_1-10000185-1.html?s=0&o=10000185&tag=mncol;page

It looks like there might be an additional mini-jack mic input on the back.

This might be the unit that those of us who bought and returned the H2 were looking for.

That's not an input, but rather a 1/4 thread for mounitng the H4n to tripods, mic stands etc.

nolonemo · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:33:41 PM »

IMO, one big issue is whether this will play nicer with external mics than the H2. The H2 is a great casual recorder, but falls down badly with the noisy external pres...(IMO).

flintstone · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »

Vegas6, look just below the internal mics.
There's a 1/8-inch jack labeled "ext mic."

The question now is, Does the use of this jack turn off
the built-in mics, enabling input from four external mics?
Quadraphenia!

Flintstone

gossling · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:52:30 PM »

Quote from: flintstone on January 13, 2009, 01:38:19 PM

Vegas6, look just below the internal mics.
There's a 1/8-inch jack labeled "ext mic."

The question now is, Does the use of this jack turn off
the built-in mics, enabling input from four external mics?
Quadraphenia!

Flintstone

Oh! Nice observation. Didn't even notice that when I glanced at the photos. That would be great to use four externals, but I'm not getting my hopes up. It seems that a lot of 1/8" inputs cut off everything else.

Regarding the external microphone inputs: the XLR inputs of the H4n are supposed to be a step up from those on the H4, which were already significantly quieter than the 1/8" mic input on the H2. So I would expect preamp quality on the H4n to be between the original H4 and the Edirol R-09HR in terms of noise. Merely speculating, though.

dogmusic · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:52:16 PM »

Quote from: vegas06 on January 13, 2009, 01:02:29 PM

Quote from: Dogmusic on January 13, 2009, 09:38:50 AM
There are some helpful photos here:

http://ces.cnet.com/2300-19506_1-10000185-1.html?s=0&o=10000185&tag=mncol;page

It looks like there might be an additional mini-jack mic input on the back.

This might be the unit that those of us who bought and returned the H2 were looking for.

That's not an input, but rather a 1/4 thread for mounitng the H4n to tripods, mic stands etc.

You're looking at the wrong hole.

It's the top one under the mics.

dogmusic · « **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:08:45 AM »

Quote from: gossling on January 13, 2009, 03:52:30 PM

Oh! Nice observation.

Why, thank you!

Even if this rear 1/8 ext mic jack does not disconnect the internal mics (which, if it did, would be Valhalla) but instead replaces the XLR inputs, it's a welcome extra feature if you have a binaural setup and don't want to use bulky adapters, as you are forced to do with the H4.

flintstone · « **Reply #25 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:38:13 PM »

Here are a few (overexposed) photos of the H4n at CES.

http://picasaweb.google.com/BradLinder/ZoomH4NFirstLook#

Street price is expected to be $350, delivery to start in late Feb, early March.
Like the name suggests, the H4n is an updated and upgraded version
of the H4 design. Zoom will continue to sell the H4 for about $100 less
than the H4n.

Flintstone

gossling · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2009, 03:09:40 PM »

Here's a sample of the H4n using NT1-A external microphones:
http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/01/zoom-h4n-audio-sample.html

Sounds quiet. Granted, NT1-A is a very quiet microphone. But the H4n seems to do it justice.

digifish_music · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2009, 06:51:54 PM »

...and if you already have an external stereo mic preamp, this is a 4 channel recorder at a brilliant price-point.

digifish

flintstone · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2009, 08:43:35 PM »

I downloaded the MP3 file that was posted by Brad Linder. It's very quiet, a little too quiet for me not to be suspicious. There's a lack of high frequencies in the speaker's voice, and no sounds of breathing. Perhaps the recording was done in a studio with soundproofing. Or maybe the file was edited a bit to remove the high frequencies.

I'm not accusing anyone, just saying that I'll wait to hear the H4n from more sources before I'm convinced.

Flintstone

gossling · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:38:11 PM »

Quote from: flintstone on February 01, 2009, 08:43:35 PM

I downloaded the MP3 file that was posted by Brad Linder. It's very quiet, a little too quiet for me not to be suspicious. There's a lack of high frequencies in the speaker's voice, and no sounds of breathing. Perhaps the recording was done in a studio with soundproofing. Or maybe the file was edited a bit to remove the high frequencies.

I'm not accusing anyone, just saying that I'll wait to hear the H4n from more sources before I'm convinced.

Flintstone

May be the proximity effect? But if it was that close, the breath should be more apparent. Also, the NT1-A is probably not the best test microphone because it has such low noise to begin with. I pre-ordered the H4n from samedaymusic with a 60 day money back guarantee, and they expect to receive the units on March 15. I will definitely let you know how it sounds with Naiant microphones.

digifish_music · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2009, 05:58:34 PM »

Quote from: gossling on February 02, 2009, 11:38:11 PM

Also, the NT1-A is probably not the best test microphone because it has such low noise to begin with.

...isn't that exactly what you want, to hear the noise of the recorder, not the mics?

digifish

gossling · « **Reply #31 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:08:48 PM »

Quote from: digifish_music on February 03, 2009, 05:58:34 PM

...isn't that exactly what you want, to hear the noise of the recorder, not the mics?

digifish

True. I guess I was thinking that the noise of the sample (or lack thereof) may be misleading as the 5.5dB self-noise of the NT1-A is not the most realistic figure for the average microphone.

digifish_music · « **Reply #32 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:09:18 PM »

Video...

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/01/30/wnamm09-zoom-h4n-4-track-to-go/

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2009, 07:11:12 PM »

3 meter remote included.

didnt exactly answer my big question....he dosent say that you can use 4 different inputs (i.e. sbd and your own mics).

he does mention the mic input on the back tho.

willndmb · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:03:27 PM »

i get the impression that you can use the xlr 1/4 combo jack OR the 1/8 not both and the same time

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:09:00 PM »

he talks about the xlr-1/4" combo and the internal mics, then he talks about the combo inputs again, then mentions the 1/8" jack on the bottom. he dosent say that you cant use the combo jacks and the 1/8" jack together, or that you can only use 1 of the other only with the internal mics.

guess i'll need to wait till it comes out and someone has it in hand.

(Evan) · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:44:03 PM »

It looks like it doesn't have a 1/8" line input. Whats up with that??

digifish_music · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:27:04 AM »

Quote from: (Evan) on February 03, 2009, 10:44:03 PM

It looks like it doesn't have a 1/8" line input. Whats up with that??

I think the one on the back is a line/mic input.

(Evan) · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:34:41 AM »

So the 1/8th doesn't go through the preamp then? Or is it switchable??

(Evan) · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:28:07 AM »

I just ordered a PCM-D50 yesterday...and now I'm wondering if I should have waiting for this instead

guysonic · « **Reply #40 on:** February 04, 2009, 08:51:20 AM »

Quote from: (Evan) on February 04, 2009, 01:28:07 AM

I just ordered a PCM-D50 yesterday...and now I'm wondering if I should have waiting for this instead

The D50 is a very well engineered deck that builds on Sony's refined knowledge of portable recording devices, so you are buying a solid instrument with the Sony.

On the other hand, Zoom seems mostly about features and gimmicks with a legacy of very cheap low performance recording devices with too many shortcomings in the audio input ability and quality department for my money.

However, with each new Zoom model, it's worth doing a bench test for input range/audio quality performance seeing if they've yet to learn about refining their audio products as we keep hoping.

(Evan) · « **Reply #41 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:43:04 AM »

Welp I emailed Samson Tech...and they said that the new Zoom does NOT have a Line In, and the mic in can not double as one.

flintstone · « **Reply #42 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:13:04 PM »

No Line In?

The docs for the original H4 say "You can also use the H4's Hi-Z rated phone inputs for direct connection of guitars, bass, or any other line-input device." The page in the current Zoom catalog that talks about the H4n says, "Hi-Z inputs for recording guitar, bass or line input device."

See also this description with photo
http://techrepublic.com.com/2346-1035_11-261102-2.html

One way Zoom thinks people will use this four channel recorder is to receive signals from an instrument or mixer via the combo XLR/TRS jacks, while recording vocals through the built-in mics. This would require the XLR/TRS to handle a line level input signal.

I guess we'll have to wait a few more weeks to verify.

Flintstone

(Evan) · « **Reply #43 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:47:29 PM »

I'm talking about 1/8" line inputs.

gossling · « **Reply #44 on:** February 04, 2009, 07:52:52 PM »

Quote from: (Evan) on February 04, 2009, 12:47:29 PM

I'm talking about 1/8" line inputs.

Keep in mind you can easily split a 1/8" stereo line input to two mono 1/4" line-in connectors. In my opinion, the durability gained with the 1/4" inputs is well worth the minor inconvenience of an adapter. Then again, your purposes may require the quick and easy 1/8" line input connector.

dogmusic · « **Reply #45 on:** February 05, 2009, 08:20:35 AM »

Info page has finally shown up at the Zoom site:

http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h4n/

Looks like the 1/8" mic input on the back supports plug-in power.

But you cannot do simultaneous 4 ch recording at 96 khz, only 44.1 and 48.

--

flintstone · « **Reply #46 on:** February 05, 2009, 11:44:45 AM »

The new page includes the text, "With its Hi-Z inputs, you can record guitars or other line output sources such as mixing consoles." This confirms that the H4n accepts a line-level input. But as (evan) points out, there is no 1/8-inch minijack for line input.

If your source is line out via 1/8-inch stereo jack, you'll need a 1/8-inch TRS to dual 1/4-inch TS adapter. Here's one example, available in 3 ft and 10 ft lengths.
http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--HOSCMP15

guysonic · « **Reply #47 on:** February 05, 2009, 02:58:02 PM »

Unfortunately, and this type of shortcoming most typical of Zoom decks, unbalanced TR 'LINE' input is rated at only +2 dBu; not much of a line input being easily overloaded with most any type of preamp feed.

flintstone · « **Reply #48 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:46:53 AM »

I'm curious about the 1/8-inch TRS jack that appears on the back of the recorder, close to the built-in mics. The online literature says this jack can provide plug-in power to mics that need it. It seemed to me that it might be possible to plug in a pair of mics via the 1/8-inch jack, and a second pair via the XLR jacks.

I wrote to Samsontech support. Within a couple of hours I received this reply:

"Hi, plugging into the 1/8th" jack does indeed turn off the internal mics. When using the mics and inputs simultaneously, the input from the jack is also routed to the two channels normally used for audio from the internal
mics. I think the configuration you're describing would work."

So it appears that the H4n can be used with four external mics. If you have four mics that need 48V power, you'll have to use a battery box for the pair connected to the 1/8-inch TRS jack.

Flintstone

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #49 on:** February 06, 2009, 05:02:47 AM »

freakin sweet.

what ive been looking for....a 4 track recorder that i can easily afford.

i can work around any shortcomings (been doing it for the last year and a half with my bottom feeder equipment)

hoserama · « **Reply #50 on:** February 07, 2009, 01:46:23 PM »

Quote from: flintstone on February 06, 2009, 02:46:53 AM

I'm curious about the 1/8-inch TRS jack that appears on the back of the recorder, close to the built-in mics. The online literature says this jack can provide plug-in power to mics that need it. It seemed to me that it might be possible to plug in a pair of mics via the 1/8-inch jack, and a second pair via the XLR jacks.

I wrote to Samsontech support. Within a couple of hours I received this reply:

"Hi, plugging into the 1/8th" jack does indeed turn off the internal mics. When using the mics and inputs simultaneously, the input from the jack is also routed to the two channels normally used for audio from the internal
mics. I think the configuration you're describing would work."

So it appears that the H4n can be used with four external mics. If you have four mics that need 48V power, you'll have to use a battery box for the pair connected to the 1/8-inch TRS jack.

Flintstone

Yeah but could the 1/8" plugs be used as a line-in? Could the mic power be turned off?

I'd love to be able to patch in 4 channels of line level audio without any mic power, run stuff off better preamps or 4 channel soundboard audio.

flintstone · « **Reply #51 on:** February 07, 2009, 03:50:16 PM »

I think it's a safe bet that the "plug-in power" supplied to the 1/8-inch mic input can be turned on and off. As for using this input for line level signals, I think you'd have to run some sort of a massive pad, or have someone like Busman mod the input. But I understand why you'd really like to record 4 channels at line level.

hoserama · « **Reply #52 on:** February 07, 2009, 03:52:15 PM »

Quote from: flintstone on February 07, 2009, 03:50:16 PM

I think it's a safe bet that the "plug-in power" supplied to the 1/8-inch mic input can be turned on and off. As for using this input for line level signals, I think you'd have to run some sort of a massive pad, or have someone like Busman mod the input. But I understand why you'd really like to record 4 channels at line level.

Because man...if I could run 4 channel line level relatively easy, I'd probably buy a couple of these. I really do like the R44 but the thing is huge for ninja taping, whereas the H4n could be pretty sweet and small(er).

(Evan) · « **Reply #53 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:45:22 PM »

Quote from: hoserama on February 07, 2009, 01:46:23 PM

Yeah but could the 1/8" plugs be used as a line-in? Could the mic power be turned off?

According to a Zoom sales rep, you can not use the 1/8" plug as a Line-in.

gossling · « **Reply #54 on:** February 16, 2009, 12:43:55 AM »

The H4n is in stock at comp-u-plus. According to this page, anyways:

http://www.compuplus.com/i-Zoom-H4N-Mobile-4-Track-USB-Recorder-1030733~.html?sid=63rtk926bq34bp5

Just ordered, will confirm later.

dogmusic · « **Reply #55 on:** February 19, 2009, 05:40:52 PM »

The manual for the H4n has finally shown up on the ZOOM website download page:

http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/download/manual/english.php

Referring to the 1/8 mic input on the back of the H4n, page 031: "You cannot use both the built-in and the external microphone together."

However, it looks as if you can indeed use the 1/8 mic input AND the XLR inputs at the same time for 4 microphone/4 channel recording [page 047].

This confirms what Flintstone found out (see above).

hoserama · « **Reply #56 on:** February 28, 2009, 02:29:09 PM »

Gossling (or anybody else), have you gotten your new H4n yet? Any feedback?

dogmusic · « **Reply #57 on:** March 02, 2009, 09:52:23 PM »

uspino at the Zoom H4 site reported:

"Got it.
First impression: bulky and heavy as a brick. Definetly not a "pocket" recorder like the H2.
Internal microphones are really good."

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12463&sid=0bf7e0ecd75e3d8266644ec6b3df6414

------

vegas06 · « **Reply #58 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:32:26 PM »

Quote from: Dogmusic on March 02, 2009, 09:52:23 PM

uspino at the Zoom H4 site reported:

"Got it.
First impression: bulky and heavy as a brick. Definetly not a "pocket" recorder like the H2.
Internal microphones are really good."

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12463&sid=0bf7e0ecd75e3d8266644ec6b3df6414

------

That's not surprising as the original H4 was large as well and not intended to be a pocket recorder either.

What I'm most curious about is if the new pre amps are improved as Zoom says.
I also notice that the H4n does not have an external L/M/H gain switch like the H4. So the pre's better function properly and good.

Ozpeter · « **Reply #59 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:38:17 PM »

Hmmm. The guy over there seems to be having doubts already (based on his personal requirements) - "I'm going to make some recording tests today and I'll decide if I keep the H4n only if the mics are extremely better than those on the H2. I don't think the extra inputs are worth the extra weight and size."

http://surround2011.blogspot.com/ is also drawn to attention there - sound samples.

Kevin T · « **Reply #60 on:** March 04, 2009, 08:24:04 AM »

OZ

You beat me by seconds on posting that link

Great sound scape stuff !

flintstone · « **Reply #61 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:41:36 PM »

The Zoom H4n has been shipping to customers in Japan for a few days.
If you visit the English language version of Amazon.com for Japan, you'll
find the Zoom H4n for sale for the equivalent of $282 USD. This leads
me to predict that the $350 introductory price in USA will fall rapidly
after a couple of weeks.

http://www.amazon.co.jp
click on the "in english" button in the upper right of the screen
then search for Zoom H4n

Flintstone

(Evan) · « **Reply #62 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:45:28 PM »

I'd love to see size comparisons of the H4n next to the Sony D50.

flintstone · « **Reply #63 on:** March 04, 2009, 09:00:20 PM »

If you squint real hard...you can see they're almost exactly the same size!

Zoom H4n 156 x 73 x 35 mm, 336 g
Sony PCM-D50 155 x 72 x 33 mm, 365 g

Flintstone

vegas06 · « **Reply #64 on:** March 05, 2009, 12:37:35 PM »

I noticed right away form the looks of the new body, that Zoom ripped off the Sony D50 body style.
Of course there are some variations, but for the most part it's the D50 with Zoom components.

illconditioned · « **Reply #65 on:** March 05, 2009, 04:54:19 PM »

Quote from: vegas06 on March 05, 2009, 12:37:35 PM

I noticed right away form the looks of the new body, that Zoom ripped off the Sony D50 body style.
Of course there are some variations, but for the most part it's the D50 with Zoom components.

The main advantage is the Zoom can do four track recording. Not sure which combinations of inputs, though..

Oh yeah, it can also act as a USB interface on your computer.

Richard

gossling · « **Reply #66 on:** March 09, 2009, 05:02:23 PM »

Ok, received it a few days ago.

First impressions:
Build quality is great. Looks and feels sturdy. Controls and menu are intuitive. Dedicated level control is easy and quick to use. I can go from 1-100 in about five seconds. Although I don't actually have a microphone that terminates in stereo 1/8", I just tried plugging in some headphones to the ext. microphone input. It cuts off the internal microphones, leaving the "Inputs 1 and 2" (XLR/TRS combo inputs) open for use. So it is indeed possible to record from 4 external microphone channels simultaneously, to confirm our earlier speculations.

Just made a quick 4-track recording hastily. I'll upload it as soon as my computer stops being a fool. The H4n records in two separate stereo files. I will upload the two unedited files separately and blend the two into a third wav file. The external microphones used were a matched pair of Naiant microphones with a self-noise rating of 21dB.

Any easy tests you need me to run, I'm your guinea pig.

vegas06 · « **Reply #67 on:** March 09, 2009, 05:13:58 PM »

Quote from: gossling on March 09, 2009, 05:02:23 PM

Ok, received it a few days ago.

First impressions:
Build quality is great. Looks and feels sturdy. Controls and menu are intuitive. Dedicated level control is easy and quick to use. I can go from 1-100 in about five seconds. Although I don't actually have a microphone that terminates in stereo 1/8", I just tried plugging in some headphones to the ext. microphone input. It cuts off the internal microphones, leaving the "Inputs 1 and 2" (XLR/TRS combo inputs) open for use. So it is indeed possible to record from 4 external microphone channels simultaneously, to confirm our earlier speculations.

Just made a quick 4-track recording hastily. I'll upload it as soon as my computer stops being a fool. The H4n records in two separate stereo files. I will upload the two unedited files separately and blend the two into a third wav file. The external microphones used were a matched pair of Naiant microphones with a self-noise rating of 21dB.

Any easy tests you need me to run, I'm your guinea pig.

If possible, are you able to do some high input tests with the H4n.
The only thing that I hesitate about is how the internal pres handle extreme loud environments. My H2 handles them very poorly, and clips with that annoying electronic chirping sound. Of course I can, and do use the low gains etting, but the audio gets muddied up when I do.

I used to own the H4, and upgraded to an Edirol R44, a ways back but don't remember how well it handled the extreme db levels. I love my R44, but I am looking at the H4n to replace my R44, as the smaller size format of the H4n would fit my workflow (live event video production, very run and gun with little setup time) better. But won't pull the trigger until I get feedback on the new pre amps.

gossling · « **Reply #68 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:06:40 PM »

Quote from: vegas06 on March 09, 2009, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: gossling on March 09, 2009, 05:02:23 PM
Ok, received it a few days ago.

First impressions:
Build quality is great. Looks and feels sturdy. Controls and menu are intuitive. Dedicated level control is easy and quick to use. I can go from 1-100 in about five seconds. Although I don't actually have a microphone that terminates in stereo 1/8", I just tried plugging in some headphones to the ext. microphone input. It cuts off the internal microphones, leaving the "Inputs 1 and 2" (XLR/TRS combo inputs) open for use. So it is indeed possible to record from 4 external microphone channels simultaneously, to confirm our earlier speculations.

Just made a quick 4-track recording hastily. I'll upload it as soon as my computer stops being a fool. The H4n records in two separate stereo files. I will upload the two unedited files separately and blend the two into a third wav file. The external microphones used were a matched pair of Naiant microphones with a self-noise rating of 21dB.

Any easy tests you need me to run, I'm your guinea pig.

If possible, are you able to do some high input tests with the H4n.
The only thing that I hesitate about is how the internal pres handle extreme loud environments. My H2 handles them very poorly, and clips with that annoying electronic chirping sound. Of course I can, and do use the low gains etting, but the audio gets muddied up when I do.

I used to own the H4, and upgraded to an Edirol R44, a ways back but don't remember how well it handled the extreme db levels. I love my R44, but I am looking at the H4n to replace my R44, as the smaller size format of the H4n would fit my workflow (live event video production, very run and gun with little setup time) better. But won't pull the trigger until I get feedback on the new pre amps.

Would close miking a loud piano suffice?

vegas06 · « **Reply #69 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:08:53 AM »

Quote from: gossling on March 09, 2009, 09:06:40 PM

Quote from: vegas06 on March 09, 2009, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: gossling on March 09, 2009, 05:02:23 PM
Ok, received it a few days ago.

First impressions:
Build quality is great. Looks and feels sturdy. Controls and menu are intuitive. Dedicated level control is easy and quick to use. I can go from 1-100 in about five seconds. Although I don't actually have a microphone that terminates in stereo 1/8", I just tried plugging in some headphones to the ext. microphone input. It cuts off the internal microphones, leaving the "Inputs 1 and 2" (XLR/TRS combo inputs) open for use. So it is indeed possible to record from 4 external microphone channels simultaneously, to confirm our earlier speculations.

Just made a quick 4-track recording hastily. I'll upload it as soon as my computer stops being a fool. The H4n records in two separate stereo files. I will upload the two unedited files separately and blend the two into a third wav file. The external microphones used were a matched pair of Naiant microphones with a self-noise rating of 21dB.

Any easy tests you need me to run, I'm your guinea pig.

If possible, are you able to do some high input tests with the H4n.
The only thing that I hesitate about is how the internal pres handle extreme loud environments. My H2 handles them very poorly, and clips with that annoying electronic chirping sound. Of course I can, and do use the low gains etting, but the audio gets muddied up when I do.

I used to own the H4, and upgraded to an Edirol R44, a ways back but don't remember how well it handled the extreme db levels. I love my R44, but I am looking at the H4n to replace my R44, as the smaller size format of the H4n would fit my workflow (live event video production, very run and gun with little setup time) better. But won't pull the trigger until I get feedback on the new pre amps.

Would close miking a loud piano suffice?

If you're really pounding the keys than maybe.
By loud, picture a wedding reception where the DJ is blasting his system, which of course is the norm.

Kevin T · « **Reply #70 on:** March 10, 2009, 10:20:48 PM »

Loud problems for me & my H2 are mostly Kick & Snare drums even unmicked. 120dbspl transients easily

KT

vegas06 · « **Reply #71 on:** March 11, 2009, 09:39:14 AM »

Quote from: Kevin T on March 10, 2009, 10:20:48 PM

Loud problems for me & my H2 are mostly Kick & Snare drums even unmicked. 120dbspl transients easily

KT

Kevin so true. the H2 does have problems with high pressure levels.
But if I remember correctly the H4 didn't have these problems, at least for me, but others reported problems. Which is why I was curious as to how the new H4n handles high pressure levels.

—ML

Ozpeter · « **Reply #72 on:** March 11, 2009, 07:06:15 PM »

Some extremely interesting reports on the new Zoom can be seen at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/36429?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1 - though the bottom line of the reports is that the device did not appear to perform to the published spec and it was returned.

gossling · « **Reply #73 on:** March 11, 2009, 10:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Ozpeter on March 11, 2009, 07:06:15 PM

Some extremely interesting reports on the new Zoom can be seen at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/36429?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1 - though the bottom line of the reports is that the device did not appear to perform to the published spec and it was returned.

Nice find! I'll test the battery life with my broken in NiMH pair once they've recharged. And I'll test those XLR flaws as well.

vegas06: What gain setting should I use to test the clipping level? The default (80/100) is extremely hot, and probably not the best for testing high SPL handling. But you said that low gains make the sound muddy, so I'm not sure what to use...50/100?

For some reason my computer isn't allowing me to upload my audio files. Mediafire keeps freezing when I try, and other hosting sites won't work either. I'll try to get them up ASAP.

EDIT:
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/07/first-look-at-the-zoom-h4n/
http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/03/zoom-h4n-audio-take-2-second-time-not.html

bdasilva · « **Reply #74 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:45:51 PM »

Found on the Nature list

I received a Zoom H4n yesterday, and have formed a few impressions.

First, the H4n is a big improvement over the H4. It's got solid construction and much improved ergonomics. The recorder is large and heavy (340 g), but it's possible to hold it and operate the controls with one hand.

The H4n showed two flaws in my initial tests. First is battery life when running phantom power to mics. I got 95 minutes of battery life in one test recording stereo at 24/96, and 107 minutes recording at 16/44.1. That's using garden-variety AA cells, purchased at a local store. You'd probably do a bit better using expensive rechargeable AAs.

In contrast, the Marantz PMD661 lasted 3 hours using the same alkaline AA cells. The PMD661 uses four cells, while the H4n uses two.

The second shortcoming is preamp performance. The H4n self-noise is generally under good control, showing itself when the record gain is pushed to near maximum. I'd say the H4n is in the same class as recorders like the Tascam DR-1 and Marantz PMD60

The 1/8-inch input, on the back of the recorder close to the built-in mics, seems just a little bit quieter than the XLR inputs. I'll perform more tests to confirm.

The H4n offers unparalleled value. For about $350, the H4n offers desirable features like XLR inputs, phantom power, decent built-in mics, mid/side decoding, a pre-roll buffer and four channel recording.

The H4n would not my first choice when recording in a very quiet setting, but it would be a worthy companion when matched with a mic with a similar self-noise, and when recording a louder source.

More comments to come.
--oryoki

A little more testing of my H4N revealed some quirks.

First, if you try to record using a single mic connected to XLR with phantom power on, the other channel records a relatively high level of noise. This seems to be caused by the unterminated XLR input. Plugging in a second mic, but leaving it turned off, reduces this noise.

Second, with phantom power on, the noise level is higher than with it off and the mics receiving power from an external power source (ART Phantom II in this case).

Third, the 1/8-inch (3.5 mm) minijack on the rear of the recorder has less self-noise than either XLR input. Recordings made with a Rode NT1A mic powered by an ART Phantom II power supply and connected via the minijack had very low levels of self-noise.

Fourth, the right XLR of my H4N has a higher self noise level than the left XLR input. The difference is quite noticeable.

These listening tests were performed in a very quiet setting, and with the goal of finding the recorder's self-noise level. If you record in a setting with a higher level of ambient sound, the H4N recorder's input noise is likely to be masked.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions for further tests. After playing around a while longer this morning, I decided that the recorder must not be performing to specifications. So I'm returning it.

--oryoki

vegas06 · « **Reply #75 on:** March 16, 2009, 01:43:40 PM »

Quote from: gossling on March 11, 2009, 10:16:59 PM

Quote from: Ozpeter on March 11, 2009, 07:06:15 PM
Some extremely interesting reports on the new Zoom can be seen at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/36429?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1 - though the bottom line of the reports is that the device did not appear to perform to the published spec and it was returned.

Nice find! I'll test the battery life with my broken in NiMH pair once they've recharged. And I'll test those XLR flaws as well.

vegas06: What gain setting should I use to test the clipping level? The default (80/100) is extremely hot, and probably not the best for testing high SPL handling. But you said that low gains make the sound muddy, so I'm not sure what to use...50/100?

For some reason my computer isn't allowing me to upload my audio files. Mediafire keeps freezing when I try, and other hosting sites won't work either. I'll try to get them up ASAP.

EDIT:
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/07/first-look-at-the-zoom-h4n/
http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/03/zoom-h4n-audio-take-2-second-time-not.html

My comment in regards to a L (low) gain setting was that the Zoom H2 has a 3 position recorder gain switch on the outside of the unit (L/M/H). When ever you record a loud environment you have to have the Zoom H2 set to the L (low) gain setting, which I think is a -30 db pad, or your audio will clip something nasty. But when you apply the Low gain setting n the H2, the audio tends to get a bit muddy in the high ends.

I don't believe that the older H4 and the H4n have a the ability to internally pad the signal. Thus you are relying on the new internal pres to hold up to the appropriate recording levels and not clip. SO when you set your audio to record at 60-70 db or so, the audio won't clip. That is as long as Zoom setup the internal pres to kick in before, rather than after the recorders gain setting.

With the H2, the pre amps were set to kick in after recorder gain. So no matter what level you had the H2 set to below 100, if you didn't have enough padding on your signal your audio would clip. If you lowered your audio input levels you just get lower recorded clipped audio.

bgalizio · « **Reply #76 on:** April 01, 2009, 02:08:34 PM »

Just found out about this recorder. Looks very interesting to me... I was wondering if anyone could do a comparison with the Edirol R-09HR for line-in and internal mics. If the ADC is good and the internal mics aren't terrible, this could make for a quick and easy SBD/AUD matrix recorder.

Also, does anyone know if the Zoom H4N can take a hot SBD feed without an attenuator?

dallman · « **Reply #77 on:** April 01, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »

I saw the new Zoom out in the field. I was impressed with it's construction.

I do have a question: (I noticed it ate up batteries)

For external power does anyone know if the usb mini jack will work to supply power in the field, or must you use the standard adapter which the unit also has. Nowadays there are more and more battery packs that work with USB mini, so I am curious.

If anyone can test this it would be good to know.

vegas06 · « **Reply #78 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:08:14 AM »

Just got the H4n yesterday.
Improvements have definitely been made over the previous H4 and even H2.

1. Improved, quieter pre amps.
2. Input gain works as it should. It seems that the pre amps were wired properly on the board, so input control does in fact raise and lower the gain input as it should, which can prevent clipping.
3. Solid bod construction. Doesn't feel like a piece of puffed plastic.
4. Much larger and brighter screen. Very easy to read.
5. Control layout is much improved, and access to items in the menu is much easier as well.
6. Built in limiters seem to function better and are more responsive.
7. Rotatable mic capsules are a welcome addition.
8. 1/8 mic input. I wouldn't need it myself, but it's nice to have.
9. Ability to use built in mics along with dual XLR or 1/8 mic input. Very nice, and very useful for my recording needs.

Shortcomings that I have noticed so far.
1. Mic elements are a bit thin, and too sensitive. Their alright for a sub $400 recorder, but just an observation.
2. XLR inputs are still noisy. They are much improved over the H4, but still a tad noisy.
3. No external L/M/H Gain control. I liked this as an extra measure to prevent clipped audio. Just have to be more careful during setup is all.
4. Not able to control L/R XLR channels independently. At least not that I have been able to see so far. You are able to control the oboard mic and XLR inputs separately while in 4 Channel record mode. But you don't have access to control either left or right XLR input level gain.

All in all I am very happy with what I have seen so far form the H4n. Just have to put it through some hard testing to see if it's a keeper for me. Mind you this is compared to my Edirol R44 for multi track recording.

dogmusic · « **Reply #79 on:** April 09, 2009, 12:48:31 PM »

Quote from: vegas06 on April 09, 2009, 09:08:14 AM

4. Not able to control L/R XLR channels independently. At least not that I have been able to see so far. You are able to control the oboard mic and XLR inputs separately while in 4 Channel record mode. But you don't have access to control either left or right XLR input level gain.

Someone in another forum said that the latest System Update 1.30 gives you access to a mixer in 4CH mode. Can you check to see if that would allow individual record level control for each of the four inputs?

That would save this unit, if true.

Thanks,

PB

vegas06 · « **Reply #80 on:** April 09, 2009, 01:05:51 PM »

Do you happen to have the link handy.
As this would be good news if so.

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #81 on:** April 09, 2009, 05:42:36 PM »

i thought i read in the manual that there is an option to record 4 mono tracks, instead of 2 stereo (l&r) tracks.

vegas06 · « **Reply #82 on:** April 09, 2009, 06:35:00 PM »

Quote from: heyitsmejess on April 09, 2009, 05:42:36 PM

i thought i read in the manual that there is an option to record 4 mono tracks, instead of 2 stereo (l&r) tracks.

I believe that this is only possible in Stereo mode, not 4 channel.

dogmusic · « **Reply #83 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:36:51 PM »

Quote from: vegas06 on April 09, 2009, 01:05:51 PM

Do you happen to have the link handy.
As this would be good news if so.

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12670&p=129232#p129232

I have to change this from good news to same old news. Here's the latest from the poster who thought we could individually change record levels:

"Oops.
I am wrong.
I misspoke. You can pan L and R for mic or line, but it's still a stereo pair.
Sorry about that."
- ScottB

Oh well, maybe Zoom can still fix that with a future update.

sunjan · « **Reply #84 on:** April 22, 2009, 03:23:16 AM »

Cnet posted a test with samples on April 15:
http://news.cnet.com/2300-17938_105-10000726-1.htm

vegas06 · « **Reply #85 on:** April 22, 2009, 09:50:23 AM »

Quote from: sunjan on April 22, 2009, 03:23:16 AM

Cnet posted a test with samples on April 15:
http://news.cnet.com/2300-17938_105-10000726-1.htm

Some pretty nice sound examples in a controlled environment.
Gives a nice example of how much improvement Zoom made in the H4n's pre amps. And also a good example of what to expect from various onboard compressor/limiter settings.

north300 · « **Reply #86 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:56:50 AM »

Quote from: bgalizio on April 01, 2009, 02:08:34 PM

Just found out about this recorder. Looks very interesting to me... I was wondering if anyone could do a comparison with the Edirol R-09HR for line-in and internal mics. If the ADC is good and the internal mics aren't terrible, this could make for a quick and easy SBD/AUD matrix recorder.

Also, does anyone know if the Zoom H4N can take a hot SBD feed without an attenuator?

I am considering this recorder for similar purpose. Anyone know about SBD recording with this one? Do the bottom access XLR / TRS inputs accept SBD signal?
Thanks for you help.

Lou

Walstib62 · « **Reply #87 on:** June 25, 2009, 08:43:04 PM »

I bought one of these. I knew I was going inexpensive, but I feel as though the unit is good for the price. The XLR inputs do need to be attenuated with higher mic SPL's or a line in. This requires a plug-in attenuator. Not a big deal. I haven't used the 1/8 in. mini with an ext. mic yet, but will soon. It only puts out 3Vdc, so a batt box is needed for any mic requiring a higher voltage.
The sound is pretty good, especially is you can keep the gain below about 30 or so. The input limiter will cause problems with a hot input, so it's best to run the levels at -12 dB with the limiter on. I haven't tried the auto gain yet, but it could be useful in a situation where being spotted checking levels would be a problem.
We'll see how long it lasts. I still have a Sony D3 DAT that I bought in 93-still works!