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Author Topic: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?  (Read 7700 times)

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Offline yltfan

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Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« on: February 06, 2024, 02:02:20 PM »
I'm thinking cardioid, ORTF, but would love to hear from the experts.
I will be on the floor, pretty close to dead center.
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Offline yltfan

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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2024, 03:54:03 PM »
depending on HOW close, and your mounting choices, maybe M|S?

Looks like a beautiful room, as for acoustics, lots of hard surfaces, such as those chairs in the balcony..
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Online aaronji

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2024, 04:36:59 PM »
Personally, I would go with a bit wider spacing and a narrower angle than ORTF from the middle of that room. What'll the crowd be like? What height can you run? Will it be seated or GA floor?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2024, 04:54:13 PM »
What's the music?
How far back on the floor?
Two channels?

Keeping it simple:
I'm assuming whatever it is will be PA amplified..
If close enough, ORTF can work well in a good room, but I'd open up the pattern to subcardioid. ORTF is a rather wide angle between mics for concert taping, but the more open subcard pattern helps with that. DIN with cardioids is often better as the angle between mics is narrower, placing them somewhat more on-axis with the PA.  If further back on the floor go NOS, and maybe narrow the angle a bit..

..which of course leads me to recommend Improved PAS technique which automatically optimizes for whatever position you end up with on the floor.  The ability to fine-tune pattern with the switchable 414's works really well for that, going with a more open pattern the closer you are, and a tighter pattern from further back.  A tighter pattern from farther back helps keep the spacing more reasonable too.  Unfortunately the Improved PAS spacings tend to get wide the farther back you are in the room, and you'd need the ability to vary the spacing between mics to use that technique.
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Offline kindms

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2024, 05:43:49 PM »
looks like a modern version of cohoes.

depending on where you are on the floor skies the limit

quiet respectful crowd ? x/y fig8s

quick and dirty ? cards PAS or DIN

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Offline yltfan

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2024, 08:05:54 PM »
To answer some of the questions:
Band is Superchunk
Two channels, plus board feed (I think)
GA standing crowd - probably kindy rowdy, but I doubt obnoxious
I was planning to go like 10 feet high, try to get up above any chatter
as for location - close dead center, probably about 20 feet back? Maybe 30? I dunno, I'm pretty bad at that kind of guess - but just inside the SBD cage
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
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Offline yltfan

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2024, 08:07:41 PM »
What's the music?
How far back on the floor?
Two channels?

Keeping it simple:
I'm assuming whatever it is will be PA amplified..
If close enough, ORTF can work well in a good room, but I'd open up the pattern to subcardioid. ORTF is a rather wide angle between mics for concert taping, but the more open subcard pattern helps with that. DIN with cardioids is often better as the angle between mics is narrower, placing them somewhat more on-axis with the PA.  If further back on the floor go NOS, and maybe narrow the angle a bit..

..which of course leads me to recommend Improved PAS technique which automatically optimizes for whatever position you end up with on the floor.  The ability to fine-tune pattern with the switchable 414's works really well for that, going with a more open pattern the closer you are, and a tighter pattern from further back.  A tighter pattern from farther back helps keep the spacing more reasonable too.  Unfortunately the Improved PAS spacings tend to get wide the farther back you are in the room, and you'd need the ability to vary the spacing between mics to use that technique.

What is "Improved PAS"?
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
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Offline yltfan

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2024, 08:09:20 PM »
depending on HOW close, and your mounting choices, maybe M|S?

Looks like a beautiful room, as for acoustics, lots of hard surfaces, such as those chairs in the balcony..

I'd love M/S, but not sure I have the proper mounting stuff.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

Dime torrents: http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=88009

Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2024, 12:19:50 AM »
To answer some of the questions:
Band is Superchunk
Two channels, plus board feed (I think)
GA standing crowd - probably kindy rowdy, but I doubt obnoxious
I was planning to go like 10 feet high, try to get up above any chatter
as for location - close dead center, probably about 20 feet back? Maybe 30? I dunno, I'm pretty bad at that kind of guess - but just inside the SBD cage

The configururation (A/B; DIN; ORTF; NOS) matters less if your getting a decent soundboard to mix, but probably cardioid for the polar pattern.  Without the soundboard, I always like the Hypercard setting with the 414's, especially if the crowd gets chatty and the room is a little boomy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 12:21:30 AM by HealthCov Chris »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2024, 10:33:25 AM »
IME, spaced configurations tend to complement a soundboard best and vice-versa, as the spacing between mics provides the open, ambient content that a dry soundboard tends to lack, while the soundboard provides plenty of clarity and a rock solid center image.  Also, increased spacing between mics allows for less angle between them while still producing sufficient stereo information. That allows you to point the microphones more directly toward PA, providing clearer pickup of the PA, especially vocals.  This becomes increasingly important as the recording position is shifted farther back in the room, especially if there is no soundboard feed providing good clarity.

What is "Improved PAS"?

Improved PAS (Point At Stacks) is a way of figuring out what the most optimal spacing between a pair of microphones would be if they are pointed straight at the PA speakers.  The spacing is determined by the angle between the microphones - the narrower the angle, the wider the spacing.  Choice of pickup pattern has some influence too - a more open pickup pattern benefits from a bit more spacing than a tighter pickup pattern.  Even if you can't practically achieve the full spacing suggested by Improved PAS, it's helpful to know what the ideal spacing would be from that particular recording position, as you can then use as much spacing as you are able to practically achieve, then compensate by pointing the mics somewhat wider than the PA.  The question becomes how much wider you can point them while still retaining sufficient clarity.

All the standard named patterns from X/Y to DIN, ORTF, NOS, etc are essentially specific points along the continuum of angle verses spacing in Improved PAS.

Coincident mic configs like Mid/Side and X/Y can be very attractive because they use no spacing, making them compact and more practical to run in some situations than a spaced pair.  But the absence of any spacing means they need a significantly wider angle between mics to produce similar stereo information to a spaced microphone configuration.  The same general principle applies: The closer the recording position is to the stage, the wider the angle between microphones becomes and less spacing is needed between the microphones.. all the way down to needing no spacing at all, which is X/Y.  That relatively wide angle between mics poses less of a problem when the recording position that is relatively close.   Mid/Side instead of X/Y can help somewhat because the Mid microphone is pointed directly forward toward the stage, and the angle between L/R channels is virtual, determined later by the M/S ratio.

Even if you prefer to keep things simple and choose between just a few different standard configurations rather than trying to optimize PAS spacing for each specific situation, getting a good grasp on the general Improved PAS relationship can be very helpful in deciding between whatever standard configurations you have available to you.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 06:32:30 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2024, 11:08:18 AM »
Without the soundboard, I always like the Hypercard setting with the 414's, especially if the crowd gets chatty and the room is a little boomy.

Supercard/hypercardioid is also attractive since it works well with less spacing.  It can help reduce audience noise, but only by so much, and is less effective the farther back you ar in the room. To minimize audience noise as much as possible, get the mics up high.. and closer to the front if you can.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 06:34:21 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2024, 11:25:04 AM »
depending on HOW close, and your mounting choices, maybe M|S?

Looks like a beautiful room, as for acoustics, lots of hard surfaces, such as those chairs in the balcony..

I'd love M/S, but not sure I have the proper mounting stuff.
I didn't read you were getting a SBD mix with that reply.
Those mics are so "smooth" I would also advise some split distance and run them as omnis or wide cardioid
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2024, 11:36:30 AM »
^ More spacing and more open pickup patterns are likely to best complement a good SBD mix.. as long as you can rely on the SBD mix being good!  If not it helps to use more directional pickup patterns oriented toward the PA.  Sometimes hard to predict how good the SBD mix will be.

What is "Improved PAS"?

Attached is a new explanatory PDF I've been working on but have yet to post in the Improved PAS thread linked in my signature.  On page 3 it presents essentially the same spacing/angle information as found in that thread, except in the form of diagrams rather than as a table.  On that page you'll find two coincident configurations which use no spacing between mics: Supercardioids with a 120° between them, and figure-8's with an 80° angle between them. Both angles are relatively wide for PAS, making them best optimized for recording positions that are close to the stage.

The PDF also further extends the Improved PAS concept to three microphone positions, making it applicable to configurations which use 3 or 4 mics - typically 4 with a coincident pair in the center between a wide-spaced pair.  In revisiting all this, the extension of Improved PAS to 3 microphone positions was my primary intention.  In doing that I decided to rework the 2 microphone Improved PAS table into the same format and include both in a single document. I'll probably start a new thread about 3-position Improved PAS, with links to the former 2-ch only Improved PAS thread.

Hope this helps.  If too much information feel free to ignore all this and do your own thing!  Didn't mean to commandeer the thread over to one about Improved PAS.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 06:45:03 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline yltfan

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Re: Advice for AKG C414 in this room?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2024, 05:28:11 PM »
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

Show was last night, and I went with Card - DIN, but look forward to trying that Improved PAS next time.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

Dime torrents: http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=88009

 

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