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Author Topic: Zoom F3 abd batteries  (Read 2529 times)

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Offline liutista

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Zoom F3 abd batteries
« on: April 03, 2024, 04:02:14 PM »
Since there are little and confused information about battery duration using the Zoom F3 recorder, I did some tests with different AA bateries to understand how long I can record with the F3 using the batteries.

I used 3 different and quite common Ni-MH AA batteries:
- Eneloop (1900 mAh)
- Amazon basics (2400 mAh)
- Ikea Ladda (2450 mAh)

and a pair of Lithium AA batteries:
- Delyeepow (3400 mWh)

I connected two Schoeps CMC 6 + MK 21, phantom at 48V, and recorded at 32 bit / 96 kHz, without bluethoot.
For a correct measurament, it is always very important to set the type of the battery used (Lithium, Ni-MH, or Alkaline).
Pay attention because this option doesn't appear in the menu if the recorded is connected with a usb charger.
Of course the usb charger (or the usb powerbank) has priority over the batteries.

Some considerations, before the results:

1) recording at a higher o at a lower bitrate doesn't change the duration of the battery;
2) connecting the bluethoot, the global duration is around the 15 % shorter;
3) with phantom at 24 V the duration of the battery is almost the double. Please note that the phantom can't be different on the two channels!

Here are the results:

- Eneloop: 2.58 hours (5.29 with 24 Volts)
- Amazon: 2.50 hours (2.48 at 192 kHz)
- Ikea Ladda: 3.58 hours (3.25 with bluethoot on)
- Delyeepow lithium: 2.53 hours


The lithium batteries are new, so they can improve a little their efficiency after some charging and discharging cycles.
What I like in these batteries is that they don't need a carger because they have an usb port on their bodies.
The quite cheap Ikea Ladda batteries (less than 2 euro each battery) are amazing. Note that Ikea sells both 2450 mAh (that I used) and cheaper 1900 mAh.


 

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2024, 07:25:57 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to do this. Recently purchased POWEREX Pro 2700mAh batteries that charge to 2550mAh (one charged to 2590 while there others were all around 2550 as advertised). For the "extra money," I don't see the value.  I did the proper break-in on Cycle 1 with charging on Cycle 2 using a MAHA C9000.

Do you know what the capacity showed when charged on your end?
Decks: Zoom F6, Zoom F3 w/ BTA-1 | Power: Neewer NP-F750 7000mAh | Mics: (under construction) | Camera: DJI Osmo Action 4

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2024, 08:30:32 PM »
How new are these batteries? Have they been reconditioned or did you measure their capacity? The green and black Amazon basics run about the same as the ladder as for me 25 to 2600 when in good condition. It would be really unusual to get a whole extra hour out of either of those. Also the lithium should be running much longer than the NiMH. I’ve never heard of that brand but energizer lithium will get me well past five hours on the F3. I hate disposables, but the F3 just isn’t a good match for the rechargeables unless you want to replace them every set.

Also 24 V should not be used with Schoeps microphones while it may power them. It is technically out of spec for their 12 V and 48 V acceptable ranges.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 08:33:08 PM by breakonthru »

Offline aaronji

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2024, 08:30:30 AM »
Those are rechargeable lithium batteries, not primary cell lithiums...

Offline commongrounder

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2024, 09:16:22 AM »
Something I find annoying is the manufacturers of the rechargeable lithium-ion AA batteries have chosen to use a different measurement of capacity, milli-WATT-hour instead of milli-AMP-hour used in other types. This has the effect, on quick glance, of making them appear to have higher capacity, when in reality it translates to lower milli-amp-hours (at least for now, until power density catches up). The rechargeable lithium AAs are forced to devote a chunk of internal space to the protection/charging/dc-dc converter circuitry. At this point I don’t find any compelling reason to use them in my recorders.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2024, 10:38:54 AM »
Something I find annoying is the manufacturers of the rechargeable lithium-ion AA batteries have chosen to use a different measurement of capacity, milli-WATT-hour instead of milli-AMP-hour used in other types. This has the effect, on quick glance, of making them appear to have higher capacity, when in reality it translates to lower milli-amp-hours (at least for now, until power density catches up). The rechargeable lithium AAs are forced to devote a chunk of internal space to the protection/charging/dc-dc converter circuitry. At this point I don’t find any compelling reason to use them in my recorders.

A sense of responsibility and avoiding single use disposable items is enough incentive for me - but we all have our own priorities. Cost is another factor. I have some Eneloop AAs that I've been recharging for years without issue.
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

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Offline grawk

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2024, 11:40:07 AM »
I’m just guessing here but i think he was saying use something like the eneloops instead of the rechargeable lithium AAs. At that size the 1.5v lithiums are inefficient. If you have a device that can make use of 3.7v lithium cells you may see an advantage but it’d have to be designed for that.
Something I find annoying is the manufacturers of the rechargeable lithium-ion AA batteries have chosen to use a different measurement of capacity, milli-WATT-hour instead of milli-AMP-hour used in other types. This has the effect, on quick glance, of making them appear to have higher capacity, when in reality it translates to lower milli-amp-hours (at least for now, until power density catches up). The rechargeable lithium AAs are forced to devote a chunk of internal space to the protection/charging/dc-dc converter circuitry. At this point I don’t find any compelling reason to use them in my recorders.

A sense of responsibility and avoiding single use disposable items is enough incentive for me - but we all have our own priorities. Cost is another factor. I have some Eneloop AAs that I've been recharging for years without issue.
4015gs/4018vlgs/kk14->mma:a d-vice/sonosax minir82/sonosax sx-m2d2/nagra vi/lectrosonics spdr

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2024, 02:44:56 PM »
Also 24 V should not be used with Schoeps microphones while it may power them. It is technically out of spec for their 12 V and 48 V acceptable ranges.

A long time ago, when CMR's first came out and people were discussing those as a possible lower cost option to KCY + KC5, we discussed at length running Schoeps caps at lower voltages than spec.  This has been a long time ago now, but IIRC Schoeps confirmed that there's nothing WRONG with running a MK-X capsule at other voltages, but the mic performance (mic sensitivity) won't match the graphs.  The issue was the the CMR didn't provide enough input voltage to get the capsule up to 60V of polarization voltage.  Some people interpreted that to mean that you shouldn't run their mics at lower voltages, but the conclusion was, again IIRC, it's not going to damage anything if you run them lower.  As I recall CMRs put out less than 12V, but a CMC6 has an internal transformer that raises polarization voltage to 60V regardless of the input voltage as long as the input is between 12V and 48V.

The real consequence of this is that, if polarization voltage is less than 60v, you have less headroom above the noise floor, but for those of us that record live concerts, there is a zero net difference of losing a few db of headroom, which as I recall was the difference between CMRs and CMC6 with the same capsules. 

FWIW, I used to run CMC6 mics all the time with an Oade M118 and never had any problems.  The m118 only provides 18V of phantom power.

PS:  Others please chime in and correct me on anything I've said above that might not be right.  I'm 65 now and my memory isn't what it used to be.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 03:02:58 PM by fanofjam »

Offline aaronji

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2024, 03:38:55 PM »
DSatz had some relatively recent comments with respect to phantom voltage in the Team thread.

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2024, 03:56:16 PM »
DSatz had some relatively recent comments with respect to phantom voltage in the Team thread.
Thanks for posting this.  Was just about to link back to that because I remembered reading that thread a while back.
Decks: Zoom F6, Zoom F3 w/ BTA-1 | Power: Neewer NP-F750 7000mAh | Mics: (under construction) | Camera: DJI Osmo Action 4

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2024, 04:30:03 PM »
DSatz had some relatively recent comments with respect to phantom voltage in the Team thread.

His recommendation to only use phantom powering at 48 volts for peak performance isn't wrong nor is his claim that the decreased 3 dB of headroom in an "underpowered" scenario is an acceptable loss for every user. However, anecdotal evidence from myself, others in our user base and the documentation from Schoeps own website provide data that you can absolutely run certain models of Schoeps mics with less than 48 volts of power with acceptable results. Dsatz is a bit of a "by the book" kind of guy and while very knowledgeable (I once found him mentioned in a Grammy awarded list of mastering engineers on a classical music collection - I'm not casting aspersions but the fact remains that tapers are doing things differently than many other recordists) I'm not sure he understands some of the mission specific things this niche community does.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 09:10:24 AM by goodcooker »
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2024, 06:08:19 PM »
Those are rechargeable lithium batteries, not primary cell lithiums...
ah, makes sense. Time you squeeze the required electronics in there they end up with the same capacity of the cheaper/safer nimh. The only advantage they seem to offer is a slightly higher voltage and flatter discharge curve which may or may not be useful. Mixpre/fp24 is an example of gear where 1.2V cells won’t cut it.

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 06:15:44 PM »
CMRs are ~30-32V at the capsule and the same when powered at 5V as they are at 10V

The reason I wouldn’t run schoeps at 24 V is that cmc6 and cmc1 switch based on input voltage

 24V is (way) out of spec to either their published acceptable range for either 48v or 12v

I do know they are expensive to fix so I don’t like to experiment. I’ve never actually seen a mic that wants 24 V despite it being an option on all of the F seriss

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2024, 01:03:56 AM »
I’ve never actually seen a mic that wants 24 V despite it being an option on all of the F seriss

There are plenty of mics out there that spec at the range between 12 - 48v.  I just went to AT's website and pulled a couple mics specs and the second mic I pulled up was the AT2050 and it specs 11 - 52V.  Line Audio CM3 specs 12 - 52V, while CM4 is 12 - 48V.   So 24v will work fine with all of those.  I'm not going to argue the Schoeps point anymore other than to say that I have absolutely no problem running mine at 24v and will do so with my Zoom F3 if I'm using internal batteries only, since this thread has shown that it extends battery run time significantly.

Offline commongrounder

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Re: Zoom F3 abd batteries
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2024, 09:06:15 AM »
I’m just guessing here but i think he was saying use something like the eneloops instead of the rechargeable lithium AAs. At that size the 1.5v lithiums are inefficient. If you have a device that can make use of 3.7v lithium cells you may see an advantage but it’d have to be designed for that.
Something I find annoying is the manufacturers of the rechargeable lithium-ion AA batteries have chosen to use a different measurement of capacity, milli-WATT-hour instead of milli-AMP-hour used in other types. This has the effect, on quick glance, of making them appear to have higher capacity, when in reality it translates to lower milli-amp-hours (at least for now, until power density catches up). The rechargeable lithium AAs are forced to devote a chunk of internal space to the protection/charging/dc-dc converter circuitry. At this point I don’t find any compelling reason to use them in my recorders.

A sense of responsibility and avoiding single use disposable items is enough incentive for me - but we all have our own priorities. Cost is another factor. I have some Eneloop AAs that I've been recharging for years without issue.
Yes, grawk, you understood correctly, thanks. I was not clear that I use NIMH rechargeable cells almost exclusively. I only use lithium *primary* cells in my Sony PCM-M10 because it has such ridiculously low power consumption they last almost forever.

 

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