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Author Topic: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?  (Read 9836 times)

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Offline Rockinman59

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Due to configuring my mic pattern the wrong way at a recent show, I wound up with way more applause on the left and more vocals and music on the right.  I was set up at an ampitheatre too far inside the right stack to use the A-B config so I mistakenly used the DIN 90 pattern but pointed it to be even with the vocalist's mic at center stage.  Dumb move.

I was advised to use a stereo imager so I bought the Waves S1 plugin and loaded it onto Sound Forge 10, rotated the 2 channels using the Asymmetry and Rotation sliders and ended up improving the wav file a little, but I don't really know what I'm doing and would like to remaster this source and do it right and get the wav file as centered as possible.   I got the applause to come out on both channels, but the music is still more right dominant.  There was a similar thread awhile ago in the thread I linked below but I need help from someone who would know how to get a better setting using the 2 sliders and also the Width slider.   

I can post a Sendspace link with a full song including the crowd applause and the lead singer's banter which sounds more on the right channel.  If someone with some expertise with Waves S1 wants to check this out and recommend the proper settings so it's more centered, I'll definitely post an audio clip here.  I'd totally appreciate it.   Thanks for any help!  I'll probably never screw up like this again, but this tape came out great in quality and shouldn't be left like it is with my amateur attempt at centering it LOL.                   

 http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155716.0



Tom
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 03:16:34 PM by Rockinman59 »
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2013, 04:29:03 PM »
Rather than artificial processing why not crossmix the channels somewhat?  That will get everything onto both sides and you can vary the ratios on each side to develop a pleasing balance and image (if there's one to be had).  That may also blend out some mild phasing if there is an issue with that too. 
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Offline Rockinman59

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2013, 06:30:23 PM »
Thanks for the info Bombdiggity.  I didn't realize the S1 stereo imager was an artificial fix.   Not sure what crossmixing involves and if I could use a function in Sound Forge Pro 10 to do that or not.  Is it panning that I would doing or something else?  I know panning can be used for a matrix.   The left channel wound up being a lot lower vs. the right and I wondered why while at the show.  I kept turning up the right channel not knowing that the DIN config was causing the imbalance all along
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2013, 06:51:09 PM »
Hey, stuff like this happens to the best of us Rockinman59.

I'm especially sensitive to imbalances like this and sometimes there is really nothing you can do to fix it to make it pleasing to listen to.

bombdiggity's suggestion is a good one. Cross mixing channels can often make imbalances like this bearable.




Edit to add:

I have this free VST Plug-in from engineer Roger Nichols. It's  called Inspector. You should be able to get it for free online at his web site. Among all the other useful features is a meter that gives you a visual indication of your channel balance in real time. I use it on every recording I make to confirm what I think I'm hearing when mastering my recordings. It also has a real time spectrum analyzer which is also very useful.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:02:22 PM by Chuck »
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Offline Rockinman59

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 07:26:54 PM »
Thanks for the input Chuck.  I'm not sure if Inspector would do what I'm trying to do, but it may not be possible.  Because the left channel had way more applause after each song ends and the banter in between songs is clearly louder in the right channel, by using the S1 Stereo Imager I was able to get the applause in both channels but not the music or banter.    I can certainly try Inspector and see what it does vs. the S1 Stereo Imager.

Thanks again
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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 08:56:33 PM »
Have you tried fractional millisecond delay between channels? You can sort of spin stuff around that way. Its a tradeoff though, you can fix either the music or the audience, but not both using the same technique.
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Offline Rockinman59

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 09:10:38 PM »
Have you tried fractional millisecond delay between channels? You can sort of spin stuff around that way. Its a tradeoff though, you can fix either the music or the audience, but not both using the same technique.

I've not heard of this technique, but I have improved the wav file to the point that the crowd applause is even but the vocals and music are still slightly favoring the right channel.  Is there a way to do this delay in Sound Forge?  If so which function is it in the menu?   
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Marshall7

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 09:21:20 PM »
Just insert a few milliseconds of "nothing" at the front of one of the channels.

Offline Rockinman59

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 09:50:52 PM »
Just insert a few milliseconds of "nothing" at the front of one of the channels.


In Sound Forge, I can have the cursor at the beginning of one channel, select just that channel and then there's Insert on the toolbar and Silence is one of the choices.  I can insert 00:00:00.300 where the cursor is which is at the absolute beginning of the wav file.   Is that 3 milliseconds I'd be inserting and is that what you mean by a delay full of "nothing" ?   Thanks


Tom
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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 11:58:09 PM »
too much, I'm talking between 1 and 25 samples, I find that you need a plugin that adds delay to do it properly. Reaper has one (see below).

Even 0.5 ms will be a dramatic swing. (that's about the spacing between capsules for sounds originating 90 degrees off center axis in NOS).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2013, 03:01:07 AM »
I may have misunderstood your question.  If it is balance or content and they're in phase cross mixing is good.  It's easy to do in Audtion and probably most others (basically mix a ratio of left and right together for a new version of each channel).  50/50 of both will make the two resulting channels basically the same.  Varying the ratio will provide some sense of the stereo image. 

If they're out of phase (one channel delayed relative to the other) you should absolutely do your best to fix that first.  Inserting the correct number of samples in front of the leading channel to push its timeline back to match the lagging channel is the best approach.  You can visually measure the distance if you zoom in really close.  Essentially compare the same peaks and valleys between each channel and determine how many samples apart they are - if the mics stay fixed it's usually constant but if you're moving you need to sort of arrive at the average.  That's my favored method for phase adjustments. 

Some programs have measurement tools and auto fixes.  They may or may not work as intended. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 03:04:55 AM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2013, 04:01:33 PM »
You can visually measure the distance if you zoom in really close.  Essentially compare the same peaks and valleys between each channel and determine how many samples apart they are - if the mics stay fixed it's usually constant but if you're moving you need to sort of arrive at the average.

For any non-coincident mic config that uses space between the capsules, the timing relationship of any single peak will vary slighlty between Left and Right channels for sound sources which were off-axis from the center-line of the mic array.  Sounds arriving from anywhere on the median plane (directly in front, in back, above, below, etc) should have the peaks lining up exactly, but the farther to either side the sound arrives from, the more the peak in one channel will lead the other.  You need to zoom in closely on the waveform to see it, but it is especially apparent in A-B spaced omni recordings and can mess with your attempts to align things unless you are aware of it.
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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2013, 04:36:06 PM »
What lee said.

Thats why I play with the plug and listen. I find I get better controllable results that way (but the theory behind it is basically the same, it's an adjustment of interchannel phase interaction).

signed; team too-lazy-to-use-the-quote-function
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2013, 04:53:17 PM »
As an allstar member of team too-lazy, I'll reiterate few obvious things already metnioned that are good to check and play around with before going too deep with the more advanced tools: 1) Adjusting the level of each channel independantly to get them more equal and/or to pan the apparent image somewhat as desired.  2) The 'cross-mixing' mentioned previously, which is equivalent to panning the channels towards center.  There is no reason the panning or 'cross-mixing' needs to be done symetrically, you might find that it's best with the dominant side panned toward center slightly and the other side still hard-panned to one side, or vice-a-versa. Play around with it in combination with channel level and use the combination that sounds best. 3) If the channels sound significantly different in timbre, you might try EQ them seperately to match better.

A philosophical insight- We work with 'artificially repoduced sound'. Everything we do through the entire recording chain is 'artifical processing' of past real events, begining with the microphones and going on from there.  Panning and level changes are no less artificial than more complex tools, they are just simpler manipulations that have less pitfalls and obscure complications than more complex ones.



Another idea I've been considering for a long time but simply haven't played around with is this, and I think it might work well here:
Use of Mid/Side decode/processing techniques to place the dominant channel in the center and spread the less dominant (more ambient channel) to the sides of the stereo image.  The aim being to place the channel with the greater proportion of direct PA sound in the center of the playback image and spread the channel with more crowd and room sound out to both sides. 

Not sure exactly how to do that yet, beyond simply assigning one channel as Mid and the other as Side and using a M/S decoding tool.  I imagine it might cause some unwanted low frequency cancellation so it may make sense to only do this above a certain frequency.  I have a handfull of 4 channel surround recordings where the Left and Right channels are compromised or corrupt but the Center and Back channels are fine, and salvaging those are what got me thinking about this, but it would also apply to other situations like this one where an different 'artificial' stereo image (center/outside) might be more appropriate than the typical left/right paradigm.  An application closer to home for many around here would be producing a plesant stereo recording from a single mono SBD and a single mono AUD channel instead of simply mixing them to mono or using the typical pseudo-stereo techniques like hass delays or EQ combs..

I'm interested in your thoughts on that Page, and those of anyone else.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:00:47 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Rockinman59

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Re: Anyone with stereo imaging expertise using Waves S1 plugin?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2013, 09:03:04 PM »
Thanks for all the input guys, but being inexperienced with some of the terminology, I feel more confused now lol.

Basically what happened was I used a DIN90 pattern and I was DFC but rather inside the right stack and too far in to simply point both mics straight at the stack.  I thought by setting an even 90 degree pattern then turning the mic stand to line up with the singer's mic on stage it would come out ok.   I had to adjust the right channel a lot higher to get it even with the left, but I never have to do that, the UA5 is usually only a 1/4 turn off from the other channel.   The music looks even during the song, BUT at the end when the crowd applauds, the left channel is dominant and you can see it on the wav file.  Then the banter in between seems to be right channel dominant, that's why someone told me a stereo Imager like the S1 would work.   I played around with it and got at least the applause even but the vocals, banter and music are still heard more on the right channel. This is where I am stuck.  I guess I could play around more with the S1 and see if I can do anything better, but I was hoping someone here had real experience with it and could listen to a clip and tell me if it could be adjusted to sound closer to centered with crowd, vocals and music.

Here's a clip of one song that should show how the crowd favors the left and the vocals and banter is more right.  The music itself sounds pretty even.  This is the original wav file of this song before I did anything with the Waves S1:    http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ufx76   

« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:29:07 PM by Rockinman59 »
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