Topic: Newbie with a new iRiver 120 - many questions

[divamum]

Hi!

Firstly, let me apologise in advance for what will undoubtedly be recording dufus questions - thanks for your patience with me!  I did dig around the archives, so I've read previous posts; just hoping for some more specific input.  Thanks!

I'm a classical singer who needs to record for various reasons - rehearsals for listening back (large rooms), practice sessions (small rooms), occasional stealth recordings (big theaters) etc etc.  My first device was a Sharp MD 702 (which I adored); when that one died <sob> I replaced it with a Sharp MT15 (which I hate - sound quality is, imo, vastly inferior).  I've been using a Sony ECM 907 with these with tolerable results.

I finally bit the bullet this week and ponied up the money for an iRiver. I've read, I've researched.  I decided it sounded like the best move available to me right now, so, even I knew about the lack of on-the-fly/levels, I thought I'd give it a whirl anyway.

I haven't had a chance to do more than simply try it out in my living room, but I have a few questions/concerns already, mainly that I'm having to crank the ext mic volume (on the unit) up to 15 (out of 20) to record speech from 3 ft away in a living room.  This does not bode well for recording in a 2000 seat theater!!   Or is this just technostupidity on my part? On my MD, the difference in setting between what I used in a small  room and how high I had it in theater was at least 10 or so.....

I will say that the QUALITY on the recording I got was great, it was just rather low level (and I had to crank the volume up on playback).  I'm concerned about teh low gain.   Will of course test it in other venues/situations (my living room  isn't exactly definitive! lol) but any advice/comments from other users?  Is it just this particular mic/unit combo, am I set up with a wrong internal setting or is it a known problem?

I don't, at this stage, particularly want to add a preamp - while I appreciate that it would improve the recordings, simplicity (and less to carry!) is more important to me for lessons/rehearsals than flawless quality.  That said, i do want to be able to HEAR it

I've been considering getting a different mic anyway; the 907 has done good service for me, but I'd like something smaller and easier to carry/hold (conceal!).   Am considering the Core binaurals.  Is there a huge difference in quality between the low-cost version and the standard one?  What IS that difference (sorry, I did say I was a complete newb!!)

Lastly, whyohwhyohwhyohwhy did iRiver leave out the on-the-fly/meter? I don't GET it!!! It has meters for PLAYBACK so can't they jsut make it a firmware update?  It seems it would be so EASY to have included that...... 

Oh, and a user question:  I can't find specifics in the manual (is there a more detailed user guide online anywhere?), but I only seem to be able to access the "record standby" mode if I'm already  in the record/voice directory and looking at a screeen for a previous recording.  It's not really a problem, I just want to know EXACTLY how to start a recording quickly, unobtrusively and RELIABLY so that I'm not fumbling around and/or risking missing something!

Many thanks for your help - I'm sure I'll think of more questions and thanks in advance for your patience with me!

D

[timP]

pm on it's way with some of my iriver exeperiences...

[divamum]

PM?  (I'm getting stuck on "post mortem" which I'm sure can't be right

Tx

[timP]

I meant the private mail we've got here .. like IM

love my Iriver!!
you just may need a pre-amp to get good levels..

[divamum]

Ok, figured out how to access the private message link - thanks!!   Any and all information/tips about the iRiver and how to get the most out of it welcomed!

[DCDireWolf]

I love my iRiver H140. 

Supposedly the company knows about our frustration with lack of level meters and is working on firmware to fix it.  Take that with a grain of salt though, the first firmware updates took a long, long time to come out, way behind schedule.

It's not hard to record, just hold down the record button to go into standby mode, then hit it again to start recording.  Just remember, you get 74 minutes, then you have to push stop, let the machine save your file, then hit record again to start a new file.

Not sure about the volume problem, I've been patching into other people's mics and getting plenty of loudness.  Sounds like you might need a preamp.

[Brian]

classical singer eh?  get a new mic, preferably a large diaphragm condenser microphone.  so many options here, just have to set yourself a budget.  LD condensers are great with vocals and will no doubt help with levels. the other thing is to maybe sing a little closer to the microphone, but not too close. i'd say a good 8"-1' away tops. 

hope that helps, good luck!

edit: of course if you get a condenser microphone you are going to need to get a preamp for it that will supply it 48v of phantom power and give you all the gain you need for proper recording levels.

[divamum]

"the other thing is to maybe sing a little closer to the microphone, but not too close. i'd say a good 8"-1' away tops."

Actually, as a classical singer that's usually next to impossible, particularly in a staged opera .... <grin>

Thanks for the suggestions so far (please keep 'em coming!  All information is great .  I gather from some other classical colleagues using this unit that this combo picks up singing much better than speech, so I'll be interested to see how it does  as I get to try it out in some different situations over the next few days.  I'm still  a little concerned about how it will pick up stage from the house, but I guess we'll see!   I'll report back.

Oh, and what is "a large diaphragm condenser microphone"? Any particular examples/brands for me to consider?  And are there any which are small and portable?  Portability is an issue for me right now - I'm on the road with a bunch of heavy scores (hardbound many of them) a lot of the time and just want to slimline as much as possible - hence one of the reasons for moving on from MD - don't want to carry the extra discs!   

Thanks for you patience with  the technodolt questions ... like I said, I'm a newb!!

Tx.

[kingofthealley]

In October, the recording level problem looks like it will be fixed by a firmware update.  Not sure if the voice recording truncation problem means the WAV file limit that only allows 80 mins of WAV recording at a time.  From I-river's firmware update announcment:

Firmware Upgrade Schedule




[H Series]


   1. H100 Series

    First Upgrade (Expected end of July ~ early August)

        New features

 1) File delete function supported

     (Files can be deleted from the player itself) – on the fly file delete

 2) Format function supported

     (Will be supported for Window 2000/XP- based devices due to difficulty in formatting 40GB files from the operating platform)

 3) Adjustable playback speed supported

     (Playback speed cannot be manipulated as in the iFPs but adjustments can be made with select speed options)

 4) Gaps between songs can be deleted

     (Gaps are deleted through scanning for silent periods at the end of the music file) - Gapless playback.

 5) DB Unicode is supported

     (Supports technology in Unicode).

 6) DB OGG file adding is supported (OGG is supported in DB Update).

 7) Hebrew language added.

  Sub folders supported for TEXT folders.

 9) SHUFFLE function improved to Real Shuffle.

10) Problem with ID3 Tags resolved with EXÎÃ (Problems from using MP3GAIN resolved).

11) Remote control display problems from NAVI functions in PLAYLIST mode fixed.

12) Internal playlist supported (Programming function supported) on the fly playlist.

13) Problems of FM tuner display fixed.

14) Interference on the display from remote control usage is fixed.

15) External battery supported for H100 series (External batteries will be recognizable for the H100 series).

16) Problems recognizing select files in Japanese fixed.

 

   Second Upgrade (Expected in October)

       New features

1) Recording volume adjustment function supported.

2) No recording delay from the push of the RECORD button.

3) MONO recording supported (Supported during VOICE Recording)

4) Truncated voice recording fixed.

5) SAD function supported.

6) AUTO SYNC function supported.

[DCDireWolf]

Yeah, kudos to iRiver for solving some of the problems, but the sample dropping glitch is the one that bugs me the most.  Yeah, my ear can't hear it, but my brain knows it's there!

[divamum]

I've had a chance to try the iRiver out now, and thought I'd report back.

The main thing about it I'm unhappy about, it would seem, is the  ECM907 microphone I'm using with it (hence my recent questions on the mic board)

I had a chance to try it out in a big semi-outdoor venue and also in some small (very live) practice rooms. Broadly speaking, I'm EXTREMELY happy with both the ease of use and the sound quality.

Ironically one of the things I was most worried about before I decided to buy it  - the lack of on-the-fly meters/level adjustment - is a moot point when used with the 907:  when I'm just practicing I dont' really monitor the recs that much anyway (more interested in practicing than recording - it's essentially a snoop tape, and if the level is high enough to catch my low/middle range and comments of teacher/coaches etc I ALWAYS metercrunch at the top of my range in a small room), and in a large space the existing gain for a plugin power mic is low enough that it never came anywhere near a meter crunch.  That said, even though the mic was stuffed into my handbag and it was recorded from BEHIND the stage (and behind the orchestra) where I was waiting for my cues,  I got surprisingly clear sound. Sure I have to crank up the volume very high on playback, but it's clean and clear.  Can't argue with that!

Love the ease of use of the unit; the buttons are very well placed for me and my hands just flop onto the buttons in the right place, which makes it easy to quickly start up without having to fumble/look at it. For me, that's really useful.

The only thing that I was little surprised by was the occasional very small "pop" noise. Not dropout, but an actual *noise*.  Still not sure what that is - power glitch, hard drive noise, some kind of...well, who knows?  Is that a known problem with the unit?

Anyway, broadly speaking, i'm happy with it and for my needs, I think it's going to be ideal.  Now I just have to find a mic that copes with the excesses of the operatic voice a bit better than the 907...  Am currently leaning towards trying the SP self-powered stereo mic (ease of use, blurb describes them as similar strengths to the 907, but better at coping with extreme SPLs and also with a 9v battery so can use line in without further equipment required) or a pair of binaural omnis (what y'all seem to favour, it seems)  but any further advice from you knowledgeable types is warmly welcomed, particularly from anybody with an iRiver who's experimented with different mics/settings/setups etc

Anyway, thanks to everybody for their comments and suggestions - really appreciate it!

[Brian]

why would that be too hard to be only a foot away from the microphone?  just remember the farther back you get the less clarity you'll have. and if you're too close there will be a "proximity effect" that will cause your voice to be too bassy.  that's why i suggested staying around a foot away. optimal results.

large diaprhagm condenser. check http://www.adkmic.com   lots of great options there and affordable!

[divamum]

In an opera staging rehearsal or performance there is absolutely NO possibility of staying close to a mic;  it's like being any other kind of actor (except one is singing) - you're moving all over the stage to act out the part.  Sticking near the microphone is neither desirable nor possible.

In practice sessions the 1ft distance wouldn't be impossible since it's  just me in a room  doing my thing, but it's just not something I really concentrate on.   Recording is a background activity for me rather than the "prime directive"  - essentially I run the machine as a "snoop tape" so I can hear for myself certain things I'm working on vocally, or to work on learning a new role or whatever.  I of course want the best recording quality I can get, but with absolutely the minimum amount of effort to get it.  (I realise this is a totally different mindset from real tapers like you guys - don't stone me, it's just very different priorities! ) I know I'm asking the equipment to do a lot of work for me. 

Also, in many rehearsal situations - particularly when performing w/union organisations - recording has to  be done discreetly, to say the least.   I can't go as far as wiring myself for sound in the sense  of a concert stealth taping (one of the reasons I'm  still not sure about binaurals over single point stereo - less separation on the latter, but possibly easier to manage in the situations in which I regularly record).   The best I can hope for is to have the mic+unit in my bag and just unobtrusively switch it on - open, visible mic is usually out of the question.   The union would either absolutely ban recording (even though it's only for my own archival  purposes) or alternatively insist that I formally request permission from my fellow artists... which, in an orchestra situation, could be as many as 100 people.  It's just not worth it, and there's pretty much a tacit "don't ask don't tell" understanding in force 

Hope that explains  a bit better how things work in "my" world and thus some of what must seem like even more-idiotic-than-usual-newbie requests and responses   Bottom  line is that  I need  equipment which can almost compensate for the sometimes unfavorable (to recording) conditions ...

Thanks for your comments though!  Reading this site is starting to make clear to me both how and why one has to "think like the machine thinks" to get good recording results. It's just never really been a priority; it's good I'm finally starting to understand more.  Not sure I can always effect the necessary changes, but at least it's making some kind of sense. I've never been an easy voice to record (even the BBC had trouble with it when I recorded a demo for them) and I think I'm finally starting to understand *why*.  It's really enlightening!

[deadhoarse]

In October, the recording level problem looks like it will be fixed by a firmware update. 

I doubt that you will be able to change the levels on the fly, even after the firmware update.  Take a look at iRivers newest hard drive-based player, the H340.  Yes, you can set the recording level, but only before you start recording (ala Sony Minidisc).  There are still no level meters on the H340....