Topic: Audient Mico into Tascam DR-680 SPDIF digitally - problem

[dogmusic]

What really annoys me is that Audient (the maker of Mico and as such a well reputed firm) knows about the incompatibility problems since quite a while and didn't take any effective step to remove it. I mean, after all we have digital outputs in preamps only because we want to connect them digitally to recorders - not to be able to bserve the nice digital signal on an oscilloscope ... (BTW I think they produce in UK and have really a good reputation. And the Mico is a very very good sounding preamp, and even more so for it's price. It would be alright without the spdif output, but having it might be one reason for buying this amp and not another... At least they should clearly state that there is a list of incompatibel recoders and the should publish it si that one can make a decision beforhand.)

I am in total sympathy with you.  When I bought the Audient MICO in 2010, I was fully expecting to team it with the digital input of my Sony D50. It was an expensive disappointment when it turned out that the digital connection with the Sony would not work.

I got in touch with the people at Audient immediately. They had no idea that their unit would not work digitally with the D50, but from that time on, they certainly did know about it, and a note in their product description concerning this would have been a fair warning to purchasers.

I also agree that the MICO is a beautiful sounding preamp, and going line-in into the D50 sounds very good.

[kirk97132]

I believe that Audient does not shoulder the responsibility here.  They produce an item that provides a true pro spec output via SPDIF.  The problem is that Tascam does not read the incoming data stream that way.  When Sound Devices USBPre-2 first hit the market, it was also incompatible with the 680.  Sound Devices issued a software patch to address the problem.  I think that the Tascam (and I guess the Sony but I don't know about them) decided to use a more consumer approach to  things rather than have their deck operate at the full Professional level.  The Deck should come with a warning it cannot work with items that only output a true professional level digital signal....but I am sure you can see why they are never gonna put that warning into print. 

[Gutbucket]

Does Tascam claim the DR-680 autodetects?  It only has RCA in/out but I think it has a menu selected AES/SPDIF switch if I recall correctly.  I've only sent S/P-DIF in from a V3 or R44 and out to the R44, no AES/EBU sources.

[edit- eh, nah I'll make a new post below..]

[DSatz]

> They produce an item that provides a true pro spec output via SPDIF.

That's a contradiction in terms. S/P-DIF is a consumer standard.

AES/EBU is its closest professional counterpart--but even if you work around the voltage/impedance/balance issues, the two bitstreams aren't completely identical from an information standpoint; some of the channel status bits are defined and used differently. To convert properly between the two formats requires not only the input and output interfaces but active logic circuitry that isn't exactly straightforward to implement--it has to sync to the incoming signal, pull the stream apart bit by bit, make some substitutions in the bits and sew the whole thing back together at the output.

The low-cost boxes (e.g. M Audio) don't do that as far as I'm aware; certainly the in-line transformers such as the ones from Canare or Sescom don't. I have a converter that does do it (Digital Domain FCN-1); it cost about $600 back in the 1990s.

--best regards

[Gutbucket]

Just powered up the DR-680 to check.  The menu switch on the I/O page is D.OUTPUT MODE  >  SPDIF or AES/EBU.  So it has an output switch but not a manual input switch.

[dogmusic]

The Audient MICO has three digital outputs [see image below]:

1. XLR - labelled "AES/EBU"

2. RCA - labelled "SPDIF"

3. OPTICAL / TOSLINK - labelled "SPDIF"

You would expect the so-called "true pro spec output" to be the XLR output, and the SPDIF outputs to be able to handle consumer units. At least, that's what I expected.

Audient knew there was a problem by 2010, but, unlike Sound Devices, they could not change their product to solve it. However they should have at least put a note on their website product description.

This does not take away from the excellent quality of the MICO. I just wish I could use the digital out that I bought it for.

[kirk97132]

So I may be mis interperting some things, so let me clarify with what I know.  When the uSBPre-2 came out I received one of the first units and was in touch with Sound Devices right away to find out why it wouldn't work with my 680.  Nic at sound devces had me beta test out a few patches as they worked on the problem.  I searched back into my e-mail and here is Sound Devices explanation of the problem (this refers to SPDIF only)

"It seems there was a recent issue that had a similar type of digital locking issue.  So please forgive the layman explanation but neither the Tech support person nor I are really knowledgeable about these issues.  What was happening was the that the Tascam is looking for codec in the header information that is not there.  It was something to do with the "c" bits and sample rate information that the header supplies."  Nic also apologized that he did not have a more technical explanation but at the time SD techs were working on a solution.  They did come up with a patch , and rather quickly too.  Could Audient do this? I have no idea if they can or what it takes to patch their software.  I do know that the 680 is one of only  a few decks that does not work with the mico and I would put the  issue squarely on Tascam's shoulders....don't get me wrong I love my 680.  But this issue is why I did not buy a mico when I was looking.  For a second preamp.   

Now as for the 680 I understand that it auto senses incoming AES signal.   Way back I was talking to someone here that sells the Mico and I believe I transposed some of our conversation about things with a few various conversations.    I thought there was one were the conversation drifted into an area that distinguished between a true consumer type of stream one that also included copy flags and one that did not include any of that type of information.  I must be confusing the two as pro and consumer.   I do know that the OP here said he used an adapter on the AES output to convert it to spdif.  I recommended to try it without because of the AES input on the 680, there by circumventing the spdif part.  BUT to use AES on the  680 (for instance with my V3) you have to adpat from an XLR to an RCA. 

Hope that helps shed light, an I do believe it is a tascam shortcoming.  The deck has a few know weak points, this being one of them

[runonce]

Hold on kirk - it seemed like tomu of TASCAM made a pretty clear explanation of the bit stream tech...HE knew what c-bit is...and seemed to know the "whys"

So - the MICO explanation "neither the Tech support person nor I are really knowledgeable about these issues" is not very inspiring...and since SD was able to create a patch - why point the finger at TASCAM???

Also - you guys are using the term "auto detect" sort of loosely...does that mean the "detector" looks at the header - or the bitstream??

[dogmusic]

Could Audient do this? I have no idea if they can or what it takes to patch their software. 

When I first contacted Audient in 2010 about this problem with my Sony D50, they tried to figure out a solution but finally said they could not change the MICO without a hardware mod.

this issue is why I did not buy a mico when I was looking.  For a second preamp.   

How did you know that this was an issue with the MICO? Did Audient tell you?

[runonce]

I ran tests on this a few years back with a startech A/D S/PDIF converter.  Basically they left all the Channel status (C-bit) data bits at zero when they should have put something correct in there.
All zeroes corresponds to "Consumer / 48kHz", which is a contradiction if the actual rate is 44.1kHz.

In this case, the DR-680 (and many other TASCAM products) refuses to read the input, because it doesn't know which to believe.

If we always ignored the C-bits, we can't save your hearing if a badly formatted signal turns out to be full scale noise. (e.g. Dolby AC3 signal)

---
Tom.

It is not that the Tascam "doesn't know which to believe", but rather the fact that it reads the header info, and not the actual digital stream coming in.  So there are certian units that the Tascam will not work with, the Mico being one.  I would try a straight AES input into the 680 since it is able to accept that.  Even then I am not 100% sure it will work.  The Sound Devices USBPre-2 had the same problem when initially realeaed, but SD upgraded their software with a patch for compatibility.

Isnt that the whole point of the header? The header tells the recorder "Hello Im a 24/48 AES Bitstream"

[kirk97132]

The quote I posted is refering to Tascam and Sound Devices tech people.  I have no knowledge of Audients tech team responses to this issue.

I point the finger at Tascam for a couple of reasons......But the fact that most other equipment on the market working with the Mico would be my first one.  The second would be Tascam's tech team being unwilling to go beyond the mere basics for support.  I have had some very bad experiences with their dept.  Including a conversation with a real person about the loss of data when you lose power, in this instance a power cord being accidentally disconnected.  His response, don't work with that sound engineer.  Then when pressed, "well you should have had batteries in the deck too and that wouldn't happen".  Wehn further pressed about having their software engineers maybe create a recover program, after all they are smart guys right?  I was told, they will not do that.   Inflexible and unwilling to listen would be my overall descrition.

I say all this while owning two 680's, so don't think I am bashing the 680.  I love my deck.  But accept it as it is faults and all. 

[kirk97132]

No Audient did not tell me, it was garnered from researching the product before buying

[dogmusic]

No Audient did not tell me, it was garnered from researching the product before buying

It's not clear when you were thinking of buying the product, but I did extensive research on the MICO in 2010 before buying it. There were absolutely no reports by users or in reviews about problems with digital connections. That's why Audient were surprised by my complaint to them about this matter.

I may be wrong, but I believe my post about this in November 2010 was the first indication in these forums that the MICO digital output had an incompatibility problem.

[kirk97132]

Sorry  i can't remember if there was one "exact" spot where I got the info or how I found out about it or exactly.  We all have different ways of trying to find things out. As to when I was looking it was after the USBPre-2 was released which means it was after 11/8/2010, so I'm not sure what info you are looking for.  I get you're frustrated about the unit, but as for me, when I end up with gear that does not perform the way I want it to I either sell it or adjust my expectations.  Of course YMMV.  I love the uSBpre-2,  maybe you could sell the mico and get one of those.  OR there are V3's showing up fairly cheap too.  Both of which are great sounding preamps and maybe an option to your lack of digital input.  I hoped to help by posting the things I know about MICO VS 680, if those things are not helping you out, sorry, I aint got any other info or answers. 

[dogmusic]

Sorry  i can't remember if there was one "exact" spot where I got the info or how I found out about it or exactly.  We all have different ways of trying to find things out. As to when I was looking it was after the USBPre-2 was released which means it was after 11/8/2010, so I'm not sure what info you are looking for.  I get you're frustrated about the unit, but as for me, when I end up with gear that does not perform the way I want it to I either sell it or adjust my expectations.  Of course YMMV.  I love the uSBpre-2,  maybe you could sell the mico and get one of those.  OR there are V3's showing up fairly cheap too.  Both of which are great sounding preamps and maybe an option to your lack of digital input.  I hoped to help by posting the things I know about MICO VS 680, if those things are not helping you out, sorry, I aint got any other info or answers.

I was also hoping to help by answering your question as to whether Audient could patch their software as SD had done (as I pointed out to you, they can't). Because I had been in touch with them when they said that they had no idea that their product even had a digital incompatibility problem, I was curious how you found out about it. It was not from lack of research that I ended up buying a product that was not as advertised. But it's not the first time (and probably won't be the last!) that this has happened.

You seem convinced that it is all Tascam's responsibility based on some frustrating experiences you had with their customer service. That may be true, although the jury still seems to be out on where this digital problem originates. But I think Audient had a responsibility as soon as they knew of this problem in 2010 to publish the fact of a digital output mismatch with particular recorders. After all, the MICO is presented as ideal for home studios where users are more likely to have such prosumer models as the Sony D50, the Tascam DR100mkii, and the DR-680.

I found another use for the MICO, and it sounds great for that purpose, (and I did get a USBPre2 as well and I agree it's terrific) but that doesn't change my opinion that Audient should be more upfront about this matter.