Topic: Edirol R-09 input woes

[guysonic]

Seems like we're going in circles here!   

Just think all the going back and forth in this and other threads would NOT be so necessary if Edirol/Roland had mounted, soldered, and secured the correct input jacks in the first place.  Then no better or worse than those minijacks found in the other decks.

Now this otherwise great little deck is a pain for customers and gotta believe for Roland. 

Wondering if new R-09 production runs having the good soldering and glued down jacks (like I've seen in recent runs) is now 'normal semi-reliable' for 3.5mm type?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

what would be the best course of action, if one was to want to remove a mic, and replace that with a more substantial connector?

Those mics simply unplug from the board. Just grab the mic plug with a pair of tweezers and pull and rock gently.

I think there are two basic fixes..  Installing a new socket in the mic area or soldering wires to the pcb and running a short shielded cable to an external socket.  I don't suppose it would actually be mandatory to desolder the original input from the board. You could just piggy back the wires.

One gotcha... The r09 switches automatically between the line and mic sockets. I believe that is done via the switch that is built into each socket but I didn't look very close. Any retrofit would need to take that into account.  If the original socket is retained, I suppose you could stick a toothpick in it to activate the switch.  Otherwise, I think you might have to fudge something.

[guysonic]

Seems like we're going in circles here!   

Just think all the going back and forth in this and other threads would NOT be so necessary if Edirol/Roland had mounted, soldered, and secured the correct input jacks in the first place.  Then no better or worse than those minijacks found in the other decks.

Now this otherwise great little deck is a pain for customers and gotta believe for Roland. 

Wondering if new R-09 production runs having the good soldering and glued down jacks (like I've seen in recent runs) is now 'normal semi-reliable' for 3.5mm type?

Let me be the first to answer my own query! 

Have R-09 later production unit with the Roland 'jack fix' treatment THAT BROKE the Left Channel LINE input PCB pad off the board! 

I do recall being excessively rough one time with lead-forming the molded right-angle plug cord into a sharp horse-shoe bend and jamming the deck into its Daylight View Case last time I used it.  Apparently this was enough generated torque to rip the left channel pad off.  And this is the first time rough handling a right angle plug has 'broken' a minijack; always a first time for everything I'd guess!

Apparently Roland's choice of RTV silicone adhesive is not holding securely enough with adhesion to the jack's plastic, and being so thin and flexible a material to 'give' too much with torque.  In other words, the glue doesn't grip consistently well enough to prevent instances of pad lifting like I just experienced. 

The fix took the better part of an hour to carefully scrape and peal ALL traces of the RTV from the jack and board using the sharpest curved tweezers you'll likely to see, clean several times with Q-tip applied alcohol, clean blown air, and 'plastic welder' type epoxy generously applied to the sides of both input jacks. 

While it is now very doubtful these jacks will ever be serviceable (like desoldering and replacement) because this epoxy IS NOT BE REMOVABLE, BUT jacks are now solidly attached with NO CHANCE OF COMING OFF THE BOARD, EVER AGAIN! 

If applying a strong plastic adhesive epoxy is chosen as most practical fix, then using an RTV solvent might make removing this 'glue' less tedious, but damage or contamination of the jack contacts and other board components more likely than slow mechanical removal method like I used.

While I considered working the jacks completely off and soldering cables to external jacks like proposed, problem of absolutely securing the cables without more glue to the board, and the electrical 'plug is inserted' signal working off the ground-switch inside the jack prevents this from being an easy practical solution.
 

[Gutbucket]

Well, I'm back after a few months away from the forum.  I threatened to open my R-9 in October to fix the broken line in jack but never got around to it & i've used the mic in jack since then, no worries.  I opened it up last night to take a look, hoping to solder & maybe hot glue/zip-tie/epoxy the jack securely and..  It appears the jack's left signal pad has lifted from the board 

The solder joint doesn't look broken, the pad seems lifted from the circuit board.  I didn't want to wiggle things too much so it's difficult to really tell. I'll take a better look tonight with a magnifyer.  That's small work in there.

Any ideas on fixing that?!  It appears very localized around the pad itself, not much trace has lifted (but might be under the jack).

If I have to send it back to Roland I'll miss some regularly ocurring opportunities to record.  Maybe I'll need to buy a spare R9?!

Glad I checked in before I soldering in a pig-tail.  I didn't think about the 'mic/line jack switching' issue.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

The solder joint doesn't look broken, the pad seems lifted from the circuit board.  I didn't want to wiggle things too much so it's difficult to really tell. I'll take a better look tonight with a magnifyer.  That's small work in there.

Any ideas on fixing that?!  It appears very localized around the pad itself, not much trace has lifted (but might be under the jack).

How to fix it will depend on how good you are with a solder pen. If you have no experience don't try it. Send it to Roland.

If you do have some experience with small soldering, you can use a short copper wire to solder the jack to the trace. But before that you should glue the jack somehow so it doesn't move again.

After that it's relatively easy: clean the jack's terminal and add new solder; scrape lightly and carefully the trace area you are going to solder to, also melting (quickly) a small solder dot.

Then use a flexible copper wire, soldering first to the jack and then to the trace. That's why I say you should have experience: because soldering has to be precise and quick.

Good luck!

[Gutbucket]

Thanks Carlos,
I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me.  Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland.  Hrmph.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me.  Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland.

If you've soldered before, then you have the basics, which is handling solder and a solder pen.

For small stuff you need a small pen, like 35W and thin solder. A tweezer to hold the copper wire and not burn your fingers. And there you go. You just have to be accurate and quick on the trace, so it won't unglue from the pcb.

But on the other side this operation will invalidate your warranty, so it may be better to send it to Roland.

[guysonic]

I've done it for big components on full-grown boards no problem, but that super tiny stuff scares me.  Maybe I'll put everything back together, hope the mic jack doesn't give way and wait for some down-time to send it to Roland.

If you've soldered before, then you have the basics, which is handling solder and a solder pen.

For small stuff you need a small pen, like 35W and thin solder. A tweezer to hold the copper wire and not burn your fingers. And there you go. You just have to be accurate and quick on the trace, so it won't unglue from the pcb.

But on the other side this operation will invalidate your warranty, so it may be better to send it to Roland.

I'd also suggest sending it back for Roland to repair.  Even with the micro soldering irons/ .015"dia eutectic solder, 36 GA. silver plated jumper wire, and surgeon's stereoscopic magnifier glasses used for microphone manufacture at my disposal, the Left channel pad goes to a very tiny VIA that even the 36 GA wire would not fit, and the solder mask coat on the VIA and broken pad section needs be carefully scraped away so new solder can stick.  In other words, even with the proper tools and experience, I found this repair very challenging and do not recommend it for others to try unless willing to purchase another R-09  or pay nearly same amount for out of warranty repair.

[Gutbucket]

Took a better look last night under good light & magnification.  Definitely lifted the solder pad from the board. The trace beneath the pad over to that tiny VIA hole is lifted, twisted & torn. You're not kidding Guy, that VIA and the surface trace surrounding it is incredibly small.  I had to keep looking under magnification, then pearing back at the board.  It's almost invisible to the naked eye.  I don't have the tools, or the skills to do that kind of exacting work.

I noticed a slight yellowish ring or halo on the surface of the board around each solder pad of both two input jacks.  Looked like it could be either a heat artifact from soldering or possibly stress from jack movement.  I'm concerned that other jack connections may be getting ready to fail.  I'm hoping that if I send it to Roland they may replace the whole board.

Called Roland to get an RMA.  The guy said it's about a 2 week turn around.  I'm still within the 1 year parts warranty so I'll have to pay labor.  I was probably within the 90 day, labor covered period when it broke and should have called for an RMA then, but I couldn't give up the recorder for 2-3 weeks at that point.  It will be difficult finding the time to do it now too!  Perhaps time to buy a second one as a back up to cover the down time, though I was hoping to hold out a year or so to see what else becomes available.  Checking the calendar..

[Zaphod]

I wonder what it wold take for Roland to issue a recall? This seems unacceptable to me.

[guysonic]

I wonder what it wold take for Roland to issue a recall? This seems unacceptable to me.

Official recall takes them wanting to do the right thing as most would agree appropriate at this point. 

However, explaining the cost of this type of PR boosting to the stockholder's satisfaction is unlikely without the usual official legal motions expressing R-09 customer's experiences with the 'as-sold' shortcomings. 

I agree to the notion that honoring the warranty is not enough under the circumstances, as Roland loaded the WRONG input jack onto the board, and all these need to replaced with ones with the two plastic 'rivet' posts on the bottom of each jack allowing locking the jack securely to the board.

Roland had their chance with getting the proper jacks, and finding a solution with the now infamous 'glue fix.  Roland chose using 'repairable' non-permanent glue on the wrong designed jacks, founding this glue to NOT hold securely, but might be a good choice if only serving to delay the inevitable circuit pad from being eventually torn off the board.  More likely now to happen some time after the warranty expires instead of during as most are finding. 

In other words, maybe now Roland stands to make money by replacing jacks down the road with most likely 'out-of-warranty' service! While I believe originally the jacks were a mistake and should have been replaced with proper design, if Roland continues on this course, it looks now more like premeditated 'Planned Obsolescence' in a classic sense.

Any legal guys out there wanting to take on Roland for the us Tapers???

[pelusa]

Last fall I decribed on this board my problems with the input jack, which came loose after an hour or so of gentle use.  (The unit was purchased in June).  By the time I sent the unit back to the dealer it was beyond the replacement time.  The dealer told me that Roland was completely unhelpful, after a month Roland told the dealer they hadn't got to my unit yet, they were waiting for PARTS.  ie waiting for solder I guess.  The dealer sent me a new unit on his own dime, for PR I guess.  I haven't even taken it out of the box because I know I have to make a platform for it and secure the cables.  The dealer said that Roland was a huge company and these Edirols are peanuts to them.  Too bad, I will never buy another Roland product if I can avoid it. 

Thanks for all the suggestions on how to work around the problem, but it shouldn't be necessary on such a broad scale.  Bah humbug!!

[johnnyb]

I got my R9 last summer and did about 30 shows with it no problem. Well the fun soon ended as my line in shit the bed also. I brought the deck back to the dealer as i purchased there 2 year warranty and I was told they have there own tech repair shop. So i got a online status report of the repairs progress and last week they said awaiting parts? So i rechecked the status two days later and it said unit sent to Roland. oy vey. I never buy a Roland product ever again

A update to my earlier post,The dealer gave me a loaner untill my deck gets back from Roland, guess what? Same freaking problem so i returned it and they offered to have another loaner shipped from another store and i told them no thanks,ill await my deck from Roland.

[Keyser Soze]

I really want to upgrade to an R-09... but man are you guys scaring me.

[pelusa]

I really want to upgrade to an R-09... but man are you guys scaring me.

Here's the question......"How much does $400 mean to you?"