Topic: My HD-P2 is Rusting!

[Church-Audio]

It's just a little over 2 years old, and I only tape 6-8 shows a year.  I started noticing that the metallic parts were developing a "grittiness" about 6 months ago, and by now the screws on the XLR inputs are pretty well oxidized.  The RCA inputs seem to be developing the same incipient oxidation.  I consider myself to be very careful with all my possessions, so I'm more than a little troubled by this.  Between shows (i.e., sometimes for a month or two) I keep everything in my gear bag usually in an upstairs office.  During the summer, despite the AC, it is slightly warmer and more humid up there than elsewhere in the house.  Is this my problem?  Should I let it "air out" when not in use?  What can I do about the oxidation that has already developed?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Put a small bit of penetrating oil with a Q-Tip and it will be fine.. Its most likely from moving it from a hot to cold environment. Nothing to worry about the oil will stop the rust. The metal on the XLR jacks cant rust because its made from White metal. If you really want to do a good job take the screws out and soak them overnight in oil wipe them off and they should be fine for a long time.

[mattmiller]

Wanted to bring this thread back to life to see if anybody else has had this problem.  After spending close to $300 last year on parts and labor to have all of the inputs, outputs, and most of the screws replaced, I can see this happening all over again.  The outside of the RCA jacks are beginning to get that gritty tarnished look, and I see specks of orange and brown on a few of the XLR jacks.  Additionally, there is noticeable rust on the springs in the battery compartment (not replaced last year), and a few of the screws on the bottom of the unit are looking pretty bad (also the original screws).  This, despite being diligent about keeping the unit in my gear bag, closed, and packed full of silica packs.  I even bought a food dehydrator for the sole purpose of continuously recycling the silica packs once all the indicator beads have changed colors.  I keep a hygrometer in the bag at all times and it's generally between 20% and 40% humidity.  I live in northeast Ohio where, yes, it's humid during the summer, but not nearly as bad year-round as in many other parts of the country where people have not had this problem.  The nearest salt water is about 400 miles away.  Any new ideas on why this is happening?

[H₂O]

Do you have chinese made drywall in your house/condo?
 
Do you live in an environment with corosives?
 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Never saw this thread until now...  What a nightmare and poor response from Tascam.  Of course customer service people do see it all, including people who drop their gear in salt water and then try and get it fixed under warranty.  I assume you bought the unit new?

It is possible this is something environmental, but you'd likely be seeing similar problems on other stuff in your house.

Counterfeit gear is a problem.  People counterfeit Neutrik.  I am not suggesting that is a cause, but it is something to think about.  Neutrik is a *very* responsive company.  I'm guessing those are Neutrik connectors from the pic.  I would contact them for some help.  However, the corrosion on other parts of the unit suggests that isn't it.  They still might be able to help.

Don't use steel wool.  It is conductive, it rusts, and it can actually cause rust.  Scotchbrite is better, but loose metal particles, rust and abrasive aren't good.  As someone else mentioned, this may be galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact...

Maybe you have bad rechargeable batteries that are venting corrosive fumes? (just a wild ass guess)

Photographers say that bags are for transporting gear, not storing it.   That is mostly due to concerns about fungus, especially in very expensive lenses.  But the fact is, most people here store their gear in their bags and don't have these issues.

I really think Tascam needs to step up on this.

[H₂O]

The thing that stands out to me is that the Neutrik connectors are rusting and Tascam doesn't even make this part.  I have neutrik parts and have never had this issue.
 
Could there be a grounding issue that is casuing some electrolysis effect or something?  I am at a loss

[mattmiller]

I assume you bought the unit new?

Yep -- purchased new from BSW in the late spring of 2006

It is possible this is something environmental, but you'd likely be seeing similar problems on other stuff in your house.

I thought of that too, but have never noticed it with anything else in the house.

Photographers say that bags are for transporting gear, not storing it.   That is mostly due to concerns about fungus, especially in very expensive lenses.  But the fact is, most people here store their gear in their bags and don't have these issues.

I've always assumed that keeping the gear sealed up in the bag, with sufficient dessicants, would be the best micro-climate for the gear.

Could there be a grounding issue that is causing some electrolysis effect or something?  I am at a loss

Do we have any chemists or physicists among us?

FWIW, I noticed that even the metal snaps on the carrying case are rusting.

[jkbyram]

If metal on the carrying case is  rusting too, that would indicate environmental factors to me.  I live In south Mississippi and see no signs of rust on mine. I would bet our humidity is worse than where you live.

[sunset]

Keep doing what your doing and try Deoxit: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f

Are you storing it in a sealed plastic bag with the silica packets and hygrometer??I have  a HD-P2 purchased in 2005-2006.I never use it,sits out open in my small home studio blocks from the Pacific and all I use is Deoxit.I just checked it and looks great.Maybe it does have something to do with the production date and parts used???

[stevetoney]

Matt, first off, I'm sorry that you're having problems with your gear, but there's two comments in this thread that I'd like to respond to.

FWIW, I noticed that even the metal snaps on the carrying case are rusting.

To me, this is the key comment so far in the whole thread as far as diagnosis.  If you're seeing corrosion on other pieces, then the culprit probably isn't anything specifically related to the HDP2.  You need to concentrate on the environment...you must have some corrosive elements in the environment either in your bag or near where you commonly store your gear and bag.

I really think Tascam needs to step up on this.

It's really pretty hard to know if this is Tascam's issue to resolve.  They use high quality Neutrik parts just like other manufacturers and since this doesn't seem to happen on other units, you can't really say that it's an inherent design or materials selection issue.

Corrosion of metal components can happen anywhere the physics supports it happening.  For corrosion to occur, you need an anode, a cathode and a transmission medium.  What happens is that the metal on the anode is removed and tranmitted to the cathode.  The driving force for the metallic transmission is an electrical current...which often is naturally occurring, but not always. 

In the case of the P2, it's fairly obvious that the transmission medium is humidity.  I think that, even with desiccant packs, it's possible that there can still be levels of humidity in the air that will be high enough to support corrosion.  In the extreme, any humidity at all could be too much.

The metallic components on your P2 could be acting as anode and/or cathode.  Any two dissimilar metals can act as the anode and cathode...and thus they can cause a natural electrical potential to occur which will cause corrosion (in materials science, that's called galvanic corrosion).  However, I don't think that's what's happening here because if that were true, it would happen alot more often on alot of gear and we'd be talking about it alot more.  Also, for galvanic corrosion, the corrosion areas are at the interface/contact areas between the two metals and I think the pictures you're showing show that the corrosion is general surface corrosion.

It's possible that, if you aren't removing the batteries from the P2, that the battery case inside your P2 might not be grounded well and that's what's causing the electrical potential to occur that is the driving force behind the corrosive action.  I might suggest taking a peek inside to see if there are some loose wires...anything that looks like it's causing abnormal grounding situation.

The strange thing is that you say that pieces outside of the P2 are also corroding.  If the carrying case isn't electrically connected to the P2 somehow, then in my mind that would rule out any battery or grounding related issues (although I suppose it's possible that when it's sitting in your bag, there could be incidental metals in contact causing electrical continuity).  However, if you can rule out electrical continuity between the case and the P2, then in my mind that would completely rule out that the P2 has anything to do with what's happening.  I would focus on the transmission medium in that case...humidity and perhaps whatever corrosion inducing products might be suspended in the air.

Personally, I wouldn't put my P2 in a plastic bag with desiccant packs, at minimum unless I did some more research.  Some people assume desiccant packs are good for our gear, but do you know for fact that's true?  I don't.  You might be creating an even MORE problems for your gear.  How can you be sure that, when you seal the bag, you aren't sealing in an even higher humidity environment.  Are you sure that the desiccant packs are designed for the environment that will be encased inside the bag?  What happens inside the bag if you happen to forget to remove a battery and it starts to corrode?  Is the gas or acid now sealed inside the bag gonna screw up the circuit board or chips?  What if the bag somehow gets exposed to the sunlight or extreme temperature changes and starts to sweat internally?  Bottom line for me is that it seems to me that if desiccant packs were that good for electronics, then they'd be included with the OEM packages when we get the gear new.  My electronics NEVER comes with desiccant packs inside the plastic bags that the gear comes in, so I'm not using desiccant.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pat answers for you, but hopefully I've given you enough information to help a little with diagnosis.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Keep doing what your doing and try Deoxit: http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f

Is he supposed to spray it out of a bottle on the entire unit after every show?!

Given that he's already spent $300... the real cause needs to be determined.  Were the repairs done by Tascam?

It would not cost Tascam much to make this problem go away.  They just swap his unit for a remanufactured unit.  And then maybe they can figure out what is up with his unit (which may take a fair bit of time).

Tonedef, I'm not sure why you say that it is "obvious the transmission medium is humidity" when the OP has a humidity meter in his bag reading 20-40%, and another poster here who lives in a very humid environment reports no issues?    Plus, his other gear is not corroding.

So the OP mentioned that case screws are corroding..  Are there any parts corroding that are completely electrically isolated from the unit?   An example would be a screw that is only in plastic, with no metal touching it.  The OP mentioned snaps are corroding.. that may be key.  Do those snaps touch any metal parts of the P2?

Once corrosion starts, it can be impossible to stop... And then there is the issue of metallic whiskers..

After watching Breaking Bad, I want to joke that shutting down your meth lab would probably help.

[stevetoney]

Tonedef, I'm not sure why you say that it is "obvious the transmission medium is humidity" when the OP has a humidity meter in his bag reading 20-40%, and another poster here who lives in a very humid environment reports no issues?    Plus, his other gear is not corroding.

So the OP mentioned that case screws are corroding..  Are there any parts corroding that are completely electrically isolated from the unit?   An example would be a screw that is only in plastic, with no metal touching it.  The OP mentioned snaps are corroding.. that may be key.  Do those snaps touch any metal parts of the P2?

Good point...if your other gear also has Neutrik parts and it's not corroding...

When I say it's obvious that the transmission medium is humidity, I'm simply saying that in order for corrosion to happen there needs to be a medium that transmits the electrical current, that's all.  This can happen anywhere, actually, where the humidity levels are > 0% RH.  I guess you thought I meant to say that it's obvious humidity is the root cause of the problem.  That's not what I meant to communicate.  Since the corrosion is on the surface Neutrik parts, and since I assume he's not dunking his P2, then it's probably the humidity that's allowing the electrical potential to transmit onto the surface parts...even though the driving force of the issue, or the root cause of the electrical leakage sounds like it might be internal to the P2.

In fact, like you Freelunch, I'm betting there's some kind of internal electrical connection (maybe one of those whiskers?) that's not supposed to be there.

Regardless, as mentioned by Freelunch, if your other gear isn't corroding, then that's a good clue.  The corroding snaps on the bag are an intriguing aspect of this.

[mattmiller]

Thanks for all of your comments -- I've been following them closely all day at work, and now that I'm home I decided to take a closer look at some things.  I think I've found some pretty strong evidence that it is, indeed, a problem with the unit which is causing itself to oxidize.  The fact that the snaps on the carrying case was a strong indicator that it might be environmental, unless those snaps were in contact with any metal on the unit.  Now that I look at the carrying case more closely, the rust is ONLY on the snaps that are on the little flap that cover the XLRs (and yes, they are in contact).  All of the other snaps on the carrying case are rust-free.  Is that the clincher that it seems to be?  But does it even matter, since the unit is well out of warranty?  Of course, the problem would have been there from day 1, which caused it to slowly rust until I noticed it just after the warranty expired.  Is it worth a call to Tascam?  The evidence is below.  (And, incidentally, the photo session also revealed the source of the blue-green "powder" that was smeared on parts of the unit when I removed it from the carrying case).

[mattmiller]

The rest of the photos.  The last photo is of all of the parts that were replaced in April or May of last year.  They've been stored in a plastic bag, inside a small cardboard box, in the same office where I keep the gear bag.  I didn't think to take any photos immediately after bringing them home from the repair shop, but, to my eye, they look like they haven't gotten any worse over the past year.  Which I think is further evidence that the HD-P2 itself is the problem.

[yug du nord]

crazy situation.....  does the unit still function properly?

[mattmiller]

crazy situation.....  does the unit still function properly?

Flawlessly.  Never an issue with it functionally.  But now I'm a bit discouraged that it seems nothing I did could have prevented this, nor will prevent it in the future.  The attempts to keep it bone dry in the gear bag have resulted in my acquisition of a pretty nice food dehydrator.   Which has never seen food.  Anybody need a food dehydrator?