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Author Topic: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod  (Read 13753 times)

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Offline spcyrfc

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Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« on: December 08, 2008, 03:32:08 PM »
anyone used this?  how is it with amplified music as compared to the ACM
thanks.


from Oade Faq ---- http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/faq-general.html#C2
Edirol R44 Super        Minimum Signal Level - 52dBV

Edirol R44 Concert       Minimum Signal Level - 50dBV

i assume there are correspondingn maximum signal levels?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 05:25:56 PM by spcyrfc »
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Offline kbergend

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 05:25:44 PM »
I haven't actually used it, and you can email Doug Oade to confirm, but I think the gain structure on the Super Mod will be too sensitive for loud amplified concerts.  It's really intended for nature recording and acoustic music.

He doesn't offer the same ACM on his Concert R-44 as on the R-4, by the way.  He told me there's just not enough room in the R-44 to use the same components, and Chris Busman made a similar comment recently.  I haven't noticed a difference personally, although I've only done a few shows with the R-44 so far and never tested them head to head.
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2008, 01:27:48 PM »
I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the R44.  My leaning is toward the Oade Concert mod for my uses (living room recording of vocal/harmonica and acoustic guitar and some noisy bar live recording).  Maybe I should have started a new thread of Concert vs Stock, but I'm really struggling with the whole mod vs. no mod issue.  This seems to be a hotly debated issue.  Anyone have any further thoughts on the this particular choice?  The cost is only about 100 bucks more than the cost for a stock one from other sources, so even modest improvement seems cost effective.  Others have said "Do not mod any recorder before knowing exactly what you want to change about the sound."  The problem is, Oade won't mod used rigs, so I either get the mod now based on Forum feedback or just live with a stock unit.  My main reservation is the warranty issue--goes from the manufacturer warranty to a 90 day from Oade.  That is not a deal breaker, but it seems rational to factor that into the decision.  Doug Oade has been very gracious in answering my questions, so everything else being equal, I'd much prefer to send him my business. 
 

Offline flipp

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 01:36:25 PM »
I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the R44.  My leaning is toward the Oade Concert mod for my uses (living room recording of vocal/harmonica and acoustic guitar and some noisy bar live recording).  Maybe I should have started a new thread of Concert vs Stock, but I'm really struggling with the whole mod vs. no mod issue.  This seems to be a hotly debated issue.  Anyone have any further thoughts on the this particular choice?  The cost is only about 100 bucks more than the cost for a stock one from other sources, so even modest improvement seems cost effective.  Others have said "Do not mod any recorder before knowing exactly what you want to change about the sound."  The problem is, Oade won't mod used rigs, so I either get the mod now based on Forum feedback or just live with a stock unit.  My main reservation is the warranty issue--goes from the manufacturer warranty to a 90 day from Oade.  That is not a deal breaker, but it seems rational to factor that into the decision.  Doug Oade has been very gracious in answering my questions, so everything else being equal, I'd much prefer to send him my business. 
 


Unless he has changed his policy recently, Doug will modify units originally bought from him. If you buy a stock unit from the Oades, use it for awhile then decide you want it modded, Doug will do so. What he won't do is modify units that he didn't originally sell. With this policy, it gives you time to get used to the sound of a stock unit, then change the sound at a later date if you want/prefer something a little different.

Offline dmonkey

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 01:42:26 PM »
I have yet to hear a comparison of a mod versus un-mod unit -- that would be very interesting. All I have to say is that I'm VERY pleased with that sounds I'm getting out of my concert mod R-44.
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 02:01:15 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.  I'm waiting to hear back from Doug on a stock unit--did not see those listed for sale among the various options.  Sounds like at least I can give him my business either way--like to be loyal to those who help me and not just use for info then do business with someone else to save a couple bucks.  I'm guessing it will be more than just the added cost of shipping each way to do the mod later, but no way of telling since Doug has no prices for stock units listed.  I'm surprised nobody has done a test of mod vs. no mod on this unit.  I suspect that if bought stock, it would stay stock.  It is probably going to sound so good to me stock that I won't consider a mod.  Heck--I was BLOWN AWAY by the sound of some crappy mic preamps in an old beaten (EV, I think) sound reinforcement mixer run into the mic/aux mini jack in my cheap laptop!   I'm really getting excited!  Like a kid, er, middle age man at Christmas!  I love this forum!  Joking around is OK, I hope....but I am excited about this!   ONE recording session and I am addicted already....

Offline hoserama

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 07:24:23 PM »
I have yet to hear a comparison of a mod versus un-mod unit -- that would be very interesting. All I have to say is that I'm VERY pleased with that sounds I'm getting out of my concert mod R-44.

Me too :)
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Offline TNJazz

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2008, 10:09:42 PM »
I'm looking forward to giving mine a workout in the next month or two.

It's kind of fun getting back down to 2-4 channel recording.  The big multitrack stuff was starting to get a little stressful!
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 09:34:09 AM »
Doug Oade has been generous enough to send me several emails right at the holiday season.  I'm repaying the personal service by buying from him. Period.  The cost difference is very small between a stock and Concert mod unit.  I know this whole mod issue is debated, but since I'm NOT considering buying it stock from the low-ball online supplier, this seems like a no-brainer to get the mod unit.   He addressed my warranty concerns, which leaves me at:

Anybody make a case for a stock unit over a Concert mod (for gig taping and some living room "studio" work) given the mod is only 55 bucks over a stock unit from him?  I appreciate the comments on starting stock and mod down the line, but given the small price premium, it seems smart to get the "hot rod" right from the start.


Offline Will_S

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 10:14:40 AM »
Doug Oade has been generous enough to send me several emails right at the holiday season.  I'm repaying the personal service by buying from him. Period.  The cost difference is very small between a stock and Concert mod unit.  I know this whole mod issue is debated, but since I'm NOT considering buying it stock from the low-ball online supplier, this seems like a no-brainer to get the mod unit.   He addressed my warranty concerns, which leaves me at:

Anybody make a case for a stock unit over a Concert mod (for gig taping and some living room "studio" work) given the mod is only 55 bucks over a stock unit from him?  I appreciate the comments on starting stock and mod down the line, but given the small price premium, it seems smart to get the "hot rod" right from the start.



Well, if you're happy to spend $55 on a modification that apparently no one has bothered to evaluated via a direct comparison against a stock unit, and don't mind voiding your warranty, why not?  I mean, it's only $55 plus the factory warranty on an $850 piece of equipment, right?

Just make sure you're really happy with the new warranty situation, and that it won't bite you you know where later on.  I don't mean to foster FUD, but it might be worth considering the situation with the Marantz PMD620.  At some point, a firmware upgrade was released that caused no problems the vast majority of the times it was installed.  But once in a blue moon, it rendered the upgraded machine a useless brick.  If you still had a Marantz warranty, no problem, they would take care of it as it was their problem.  But if you had a modded unit, you were out of luck.  Marantz wouldn't touch it, and Oade couldn't fix it / wouldn't pay to replace it.

But I applaud you for rewarding good customer service with a purchase rather than getting all your questions answered and then buying from the cheapest place online.  Maybe that's worth a $55 tip as well and crossing your fingers on the warranty.

Offline nottingham

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 10:59:02 AM »
Will, that is not necessarily acuate. I had a PMD 620 with a full warranty, was upgrading to the new firmware and it never booted up again. Sent it in and they would not take care of it, told me 250.00 to replace the board.

I have bought a lot modded gear from Doug to custom gear he built just for me, now thankfully I have not had a problem with any of my gear, but I feel Doug would take care of his customer base as well or better than any of the manufactures out there.
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Offline Will_S

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 11:03:27 AM »
Will, that is not necessarily acuate. I had a PMD 620 with a full warranty, was upgrading to the new firmware and it never booted up again. Sent it in and they would not take care of it, told me 250.00 to replace the board.

Huh, I stand corrected.  I heard from someone else that Marantz would take care of it on warranteed decks.  Did you press the issue at all with Marantz?  Did they try to claim it was user error etc?

Offline nottingham

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2008, 11:16:56 AM »
They told me I must have interrupted power during the process, and yes I did press the issue. I wrote a letter to them and the sales department to no avail. I made them ship it back to me and I sent it to Doug for research and development.
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2008, 11:39:06 AM »
Boy, this hardware selection is a lot trickier than expected.  I figured this would have been debated and evaluated to death here, with charts and graphs etc...  

Doug told me "To date I have not had one R44  problem" and "keep in mind I burn in the decks I upgrade first to insure they are in good working order. As they have no moving parts( no transport to handle tape), they rarely fail'.

But....

That Marantz story makes me take pause.  You make a very good point there--never thought of that angle.  I'm a newbie here, but have had enough gadgets over the years to have done more than a couple firmware updates, and know that can be risky at times.  Brick is the term, I believe.  

I REALLY want to be a respected member of this forum, and feel obligated to buy one from Doug after bugging him several times around the holidays--not like he probably didn't have plenty of other things to do!  Not sure if I got 50 bucks worth of help over the online deep-discount option, but whatever--I'm still planning on getting SOMETHING from him at this point.

Your post is making me lean back toward the stock option.  I need to DECIDE and put this to bed.  Still need to finalize my mic deal, scope out mic cables, a sturdy mic stand, mic mount bracket, and who knows what else to get started (the point of all this--RECORD!).  This has been a very interesting process, but the equipment spec part is a lot of work for a newbie starting from ground zero--6 days ago I could even find the right end of the my mic boom  to put the mic bracket on!  Heck, 6 days ago I was trying to run a $40 Shure mic into my laptop aux in to "practice" before my musician friend came over to record!  Good thing he brought over what was needed to get the signal into my laptop....talk about feeling STUPID.....  

And now I'm in the middle of a debate on equipment mods...this gets interesting quick!!!!

Thanks to you and everyone who has weighed in on this R-44 stock vs. mod---this is a wonderful group here.  

I have until 2PM ET to order a Concert mod R-44 from Doug for shipment Monday---he didn't say if a stock one could still go out today.

Offline rastasean

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 12:15:53 PM »
Why don't you find out if you can hear the difference between a non modded R44 and a modded one before buying.
There's a fringe group of us here who think the mods don't really do anything. There's another fellow--Chris Busman--who mods R44s, Fostex FR2LE, and other recorders but no one has really been to correctly identify a modded against a non-modded unit.

This is in regards to the Fostex FR2LE but have a read about what other people state about the oade mod:
http://www.fostexusa.com/mercuryboard/index.php?a=topic&t=4084

I find this particularity interesting:
I have made no attempt to upgrade the headphone amp...

So you would not even be able to tell how well the mod is done until you listen through your stereo or better yet Doug's stereo.

Good luck!
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 01:26:27 PM »
I must be slow--how do I find out if there is an audible difference if nobody has done an A/B comparison?  If this were simply a matter of buying a stock one now and just paying a $54 mod cost later, with only shipping as the added cost, I'd have a stock one on the way right now.  (The added cost is only 54 bucks getting the mod right out of the gate.) Did not ask, but it HAS to be significantly more for just the mod later.   Makes sense to me to try to get to the bottom of the mod value before, not after, purchasing (under this scenario).  But it seems that is not to be---this model's mods have not been fully tested from what I'm hearing. 

My leanings in general (on mods) are toward your fringe group, but just trying to be open-minded and make an informed decision.  I'm now wishing this mod thing had not even popped-up on my radar screen and the R-44 was headed to my door from the cheap supplier before I found Oade's store.......

I read the FOSTEX F2RLE link---that was the one I planned to get before deciding to take the 4-channel route.

You don't think the mods could be a step backwards, do you?  Wasted money and warranty risk are the only added "costs" I'm potentially facing?  Not that those aren't enough to take pause....

I hope the rest of my equipment purchases are less difficult....

Doug Oade has got to be praying I buy a stock unit--CAN'T be worth his trouble to do any mod and break-in testing for 54 bucks!

Offline Will_S

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 01:49:35 PM »
As to the mods possibly degrading things...hard to say.  On some decks folks offer both "transparent" and "warm" mods, so at least one mod must definitely alter the sound in a way that is less true to the recorded signal than the stock unit.  But the result appears to be a sound most folks prefer.

How about this...buy stock from Oade.  He still gets your business, and is saved the trouble of modding.  Plus, if you decide to have him mod it down the line, it may well cost more (also you'll need to ship it again, and wait again) but if you have him mod it right as the warranty runs out, you don't lose any coverage and maybe even gain an additional 90 days.  Although I agree, most often if the unit is going to fail, it will do so in short order.

And yes, it's unfortunate there are apparently no comparisons out there of stock vs modded R44, or few good comparisons for any of the mods for that matter.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 02:06:09 PM »
Seeing that the R-44 is a 4 track machine, can you order it modded on two of the 4 channels?  You could then compare the modded to the non-modded channels on the same machine.. answer some of the questions about the sound of the mod, plus we can all argue endlessly about how best to do the comp.  ;)
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 02:19:39 PM »
To Will S.,

Thanks for taking the time for your further thoughts.  If I was not so anxious to get the unit, I'd "take one for the team" and offer to have it shipped right to a member who has a stock R-44 and wanted to test it and get to the bottom of this issue.  This has been an adventure, to say the least....

I just missed the 2PM ET deadline to order a mod for shipment Monday, so guess I can sit back and see if any owners of Concert mods step-up and take the other side of this debate.  

I like that--save Doug some work--that's the holiday giving spirit!  (Was not trying to be a smart aleck...)

My computer buddy would tell me I'm in "analysis paralysis" mode on this one......

This is a great forum.....


To Gutbucket,

Are you just stirring the pot or serious?  I like the part about "we can all argue endlessly about how best to do the comp"!

Boy, I should have ordered that stock unit before getting in over my head--I could not even find the correct (threaded) end of a mic boom 6 days ago!  I am NOT the guy to be doing a test like this!!!  That is for your PROS!  I am GREEN!

This forum should have a warning label about addition in the newbie section!

Offline dmonkey

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2008, 02:28:03 PM »
I suspect that the mod does change the sound of the unit, but the difference is probably slight, and it's definitely not a night-and-day type of thing. That said, regardless of how you order the R-44 (mod or un-mod), I think you're going to love it. It's a great little unit.  ;D

Although it would be cool to hear a comparison.  >:D
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2008, 02:39:24 PM »
To Gutbucket,

Are you just stirring the pot or serious?  I like the part about "we can all argue endlessly about how best to do the comp"!

Well, that last part was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Not sure how the R-44 mod is done and if it is possible to only mod 2 of the 4 channels or not (I know the R-4 mods were offered in various flavors and some would choose different versions for the two pairs of channels).  Doesn't change the Oade warranty deal but is perhaps the only sure way to answer your curiosity about the sound of the mod.  Just throwing the possibility out there.

Now about how to set-up that comp..
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Offline flipp

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2008, 02:43:18 PM »
I must be slow--how do I find out if there is an audible difference if nobody has done an A/B comparison?  If this were simply a matter of buying a stock one now and just paying a $54 mod cost later, with only shipping as the added cost, I'd have a stock one on the way right now.  (The added cost is only 54 bucks getting the mod right out of the gate.) Did not ask, but it HAS to be significantly more for just the mod later.   Makes sense to me to try to get to the bottom of the mod value before, not after, purchasing (under this scenario).  But it seems that is not to be---this model's mods have not been fully tested from what I'm hearing. 

My leanings in general (on mods) are toward your fringe group, but just trying to be open-minded and make an informed decision.  I'm now wishing this mod thing had not even popped-up on my radar screen and the R-44 was headed to my door from the cheap supplier before I found Oade's store.......

I read the FOSTEX F2RLE link---that was the one I planned to get before deciding to take the 4-channel route.

You don't think the mods could be a step backwards, do you?  Wasted money and warranty risk are the only added "costs" I'm potentially facing?  Not that those aren't enough to take pause....

I hope the rest of my equipment purchases are less difficult....

Doug Oade has got to be praying I buy a stock unit--CAN'T be worth his trouble to do any mod and break-in testing for 54 bucks!

I believe it works just that way; no additional cost for a mod done later other than the cost of the mod ($54 in this case) plus freight to get it to Doug and then freight to get it back to you. Doing it that way the only thing you save getting the mod done when you purchase the unit is the two additional freight charges.

My recommendation (for what it's worth) is to take WillS's advice, buy the unit stock then just before the factory warranty expires, send it back to Doug for the mod and get an additional 90 days under warranty.

Curious why you think it has to be more to get the mod done later? It's the same mod and takes the same parts and time to do it now as it does in the future. Perhaps that's one reason Doug will only mod units he sells. If he did other units maybe he would charge more but then he opens another set of problems for himself. Simpler for him to limit his mods to his units so he isn't swamped with work. I seem to recall him saying he was cutting down on bench work due to health (back) issues but I haven't seen much of a slowdown. I can only imagine how much greater a workload he would have if he modded units he didn't sell. It would be more than a full time job.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2008, 02:47:20 PM »
My recommendation (for what it's worth) is to take WillS's advice, buy the unit stock then just before the factory warranty expires, send it back to Doug for the mod and get an additional 90 days under warranty.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2008, 04:18:00 PM »
The stock option is a done deal if that is the case--same total cost except an extra set of shipping charges.  I'll email him right now to confirm.  That just seems too good to be true.  He has to handle the thing twice--not insignificant cost just in "processing" it to my mind.

Busman just confirmed my mic purchase....looking at Manfrotto Basic 12 stand right now...trying to figure out if I need silver cables...

Coming together.....FINALLY!   I am pumped! 

Thanks to all who have helped me!!!!   This forum is great!

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2008, 04:32:42 PM »
If you go the silver cables route pm darktrain as he's got some swinging deals.
Check the retail section for his thread. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,110932.0.html
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2008, 05:02:03 PM »
Thanks!  That is EXACTLY what I was looking at now when taking a break to check this thread.  When I joined Team Edirol R-44, Brian G told me to get some silvers, so I went straight to the Marketplace and found Darktrain.  (Are silvers a no-brainer, or is that another hotly debated subject?  No--don't answer that!  What was I thinking---enough debating for me today!  But is it an obvious choice?)

I'm just trying to figure out the stand, brackets, and adapter puzzle now on an a Manfrotto 3336---getting ready to email micsupply.com now to see if this is what I need: http://www.micsupply.com/package2.htm

Almost to the finish line!  Thanks to all!!!!


Offline newplanet7

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 05:23:12 PM »
Yep you guessed it!
Cables are also a heavily debated topic  :P
Get the silvers and be done with it though.
At the price that darktrain sells them for it's a no brainer.

For you're stand.
Not sure what the end terminates in but this is the rapid adapter I use
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=product&A=ShowProduct&Q=&sku=546490&addedTroughType=replacementLink


Then to go from the rapid adapter to t-bar I use one of these
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/286147-REG/AKG_KM217_3_8_Female_to_5_8_.html


Are you going to be using a t-bar?
This is what I use. Very versatile.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/286149-REG/AKG_KM235_1_KM235_1_Stereo_Microphone_Bar.html


Here's how it assembles



If you're using the t-bar another great piece of hardware to get in order to achieve
din, xy, ortf set-ups with your mics  by giving one of them a lift higher than the other
EXAMPLE



is this, which is a great riser. I'd get two if I were you to get a good height.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/47070-REG/Sennheiser_MZA216_Sennheiser_MZA_216_Thread_Adapter.html


And grab two more of these for the top of the risers to go into the bottom of the shock
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/286147-REG/AKG_KM217_3_8_Female_to_5_8_.html


ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE EXTRA ADAPTERS ;D



« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 05:42:18 PM by newplanet7 »
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2008, 05:43:46 PM »
Have I said lately how much I love this forum?  I am indebted to all for the incredible help afforded me.  Hope to be able to repay the favor someday.

Thankfully, sounds like the silvers are priced such that it looks like an easy decision!  Darktrain PM already in the mail!

Now just have to decipher the hardware and mounting issues, then "Miller Time"? 

Probably a stupid question, but....

I'm going to need a much longer than the typical 15' cable for this tall stand?  Unless I am completely missing the picture, if the mics are up high with the stand extended, I'll need to go down the stand, over to a table or some such, then up and back into the R-44.  Is it best just to get a LONG set of cables to cover a variety of situations and be done with it?  I did some research and the length limit before quality is lost does not seem to be an issue.  Guess I better find out how much these are per foot before thinking LOOOONNNNGGGGG....

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2008, 09:41:09 PM »
Have I said lately how much I love this forum?  I am indebted to all for the incredible help afforded me.  Hope to be able to repay the favor someday.

Thankfully, sounds like the silvers are priced such that it looks like an easy decision!  Darktrain PM already in the mail!

Now just have to decipher the hardware and mounting issues, then "Miller Time"? 

Probably a stupid question, but....

I'm going to need a much longer than the typical 15' cable for this tall stand?  Unless I am completely missing the picture, if the mics are up high with the stand extended, I'll need to go down the stand, over to a table or some such, then up and back into the R-44.  Is it best just to get a LONG set of cables to cover a variety of situations and be done with it?  I did some research and the length limit before quality is lost does not seem to be an issue.  Guess I better find out how much these are per foot before thinking LOOOONNNNGGGGG....

My advice...get a well built set of 15' cables.  From what I hear, Darktrain's silver cables fit the bill, whether or not the silver part makes an audible difference, having good connectors and good construction is always important.  The 15' cables should usually suffice...your stand will usually be 8-9' tops, which leaves you enough cable to run to a bag by the base or onto a short table (although usually I'd recommend not having a long run of cable on the floor, too easy for folks to kick etc).

And then get a pair of cheapo 25' or maybe even longer cables for when you need it.  Nothing wrong with stringing a few cables together in a pinch, so a pair of 15' plus a pair of 25' is really as good as a pair of 40', but less of a hassle when you only need a short run.

Personally I have a pretty nice set of 15' cables, a decent pair of 25'ers that has me covered for 99% of what I do, and a pair of super-cheapo 15'ers for use in "emergencies" when 40' isn't quite enough.

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2008, 09:51:35 PM »
Wills answer was a good one.
I have a pair of 20'ers and a pair of 15'ers.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2008, 10:36:36 PM »
Thanks for the cable length suggestions from those who have learned through experience--something I lack.  Now I see tapers typically just put the recorders on the ground by the stand base--keep in the case for security and protection I suspect.  Any suggestions on a source for the "cheapo" cables?  I'll probably need those at some point anyway when experimenting with quad recording--"el cheapo" is probably sufficient for the rear fill channels (especially since they will likely be el cheapo mics)

One question always leads to another.....

Anybody seen a nice clean way to maybe mount/strap/rig the recorder to the bottom of the stand?  that seems like a viable idea--weight down and lower the center of gravity of the stand, making it less likely to topple, plus getting the recorder away from "happy feet"

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2008, 11:23:50 PM »
I used to have the Sabra-Som ST2 Mount and I found it to be quite problematic. The plastic mic mounts were very flimsy and they are held in place by tiny screws and very tiny plastic shims which fall out very easily and are difficult to put back together (and locate after they hit the floor). I would recommend the riser recommended by newplanet7 from B&H and the 3/8" female to 5/8" adapter (also from B&H) along with the K&M (or is it AKG) H50 Stereo Bar. It is rock solid and with the riser will easily accommodate the most popular stereo configs. Also, the Shure S15 (I think that is the model) is a very solid stand. It is a bit pricey but very heavy duty and will last you a lifetime. Best of luck, have fun, and, as I am sure you have been told, check your wallet at the door. ;D

http://www.micsupply.com/standaccessories.htm

about halfway down the page


« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 11:38:25 PM by Kyle »
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2008, 11:37:27 PM »
Thanks for the cable length suggestions from those who have learned through experience--something I lack.  Now I see tapers typically just put the recorders on the ground by the stand base--keep in the case for security and protection I suspect.  Any suggestions on a source for the "cheapo" cables?  I'll probably need those at some point anyway when experimenting with quad recording--"el cheapo" is probably sufficient for the rear fill channels (especially since they will likely be el cheapo mics)

One question always leads to another.....

Anybody seen a nice clean way to maybe mount/strap/rig the recorder to the bottom of the stand?  that seems like a viable idea--weight down and lower the center of gravity of the stand, making it less likely to topple, plus getting the recorder away from "happy feet"

I think attaching the gear bag to the stand is possible but I prefer to keep my bag 'nestled' between the legs of the stand. It can easily be moved if needed and no motion is introduced to the stand if you need to open or close the lid, bump it when checking/adjusting levels, fish something out of one of the pockets, etc...

I duct tape my stand to the floor (or whatever is available) as soon as I set it up. Easiest way I can think of to stop it from being knocked over if someone bumps it or grabs onto it for support. I keep the bag at the base and keep a vigilant guard over it throughout the show.

15' to 20' cables should be plenty, with a longer set in the bag as a spare if something goes down, you need to run the bag a distance from the stand, running split omni's, etc...
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2008, 12:32:12 AM »
I duct tape my stand to the floor (or whatever is available) as soon as I set it up. Easiest way I can think of to stop it from being knocked over if someone bumps it or grabs onto it for support. I keep the bag at the base and keep a vigilant guard over it throughout the show.

taping glow sticks or glow strings to the three legs is also something to consider (especially if you've got reusable ones).
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2008, 01:52:35 AM »
Lighting the tripod legs in some fashion sounds interesting--"warning lights".

I already figured a roll of duct tape in a gear bag is essential--tape the tripod legs, cables running to another mic stand, the SB, etc...

Already ruled out the Sabra mount---newplanet7 scheme looked nice--will scope out the H50 bar and Shure S15 in the morning. 

Been at this forum for 18 hours almost non-stop.....

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2008, 11:27:09 AM »
I kind of hijacked this thread, but back on-topic:

I'm ordering the stock R-44 unit from Doug today.  The pricing is a little different than I deduced from his emails, but actually better than expected for a stock unit.  The premium over the deep-discounters is modest, and WELL worth it to do business with a community member.  It will be a little more (even beyond shipping cost) to have it modified later compared to now , which is fair and as expected.  I don't think it is appropriate or fair to Doug to put specific pricing in a public thread, but definitely contact him for a R-44 stock unit if ever wanted.   Maybe, once I get a chance to use it for a while,  I can ship to a mod unit owner for an A/B test and get to the bottom of stock vs mod?   Least I can do to repay the forum for the support I've received the last few days.

Project R-44 update:

My rig is coming together nicely, with just A) the tripod + mounting hardware and B) Darktrain + generic back-up cable lengths to finalize.  Home stretch...

This is not the place for a tripod debate, BUT, since Kyle threw out the Shure S15 as a candidate.....

Anybody had personal experience with both the Manfrotto 3336 and Shure S15?  If so, did you think the Shure S15 was worth the extra bucks?

Kyle threw that S15 in the mix, but was kind enough to add "as I am sure you have been told, check your wallet at the door."....that saying is prophetic....

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2008, 02:14:34 PM »
I'm looking forward to giving mine a workout in the next month or two.

It's kind of fun getting back down to 2-4 channel recording.  The big multitrack stuff was starting to get a little stressful!
Exactly!  When it becomes stressful, we (tapers) need to know when to simplify.  Easier said than done, though.  All it takes it one great sounding recording to get you back in the game full tilt.

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Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2008, 03:51:17 PM »
All it takes it one great sounding recording to get you back in the game full tilt.


http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=521145

 :D
Check out my band!  --> http://www.ninjadynamite.com

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 05:18:42 PM »
I personally wouldn't strap the bag up off the ground because at some point in time it's apt to crash to the ground and possibly damage or break your gear.  The best option as someone already mentioned is to keep it between the legs of your stand.  You should also get a good bag that allows you to run your recorder (and a preamp if you might add one later) without removing it from the bag.  Many of the nicer bags have a window at the top of the bag that allows you to monitor your recorder levels, while also protecting everything against beer spills, cigararette ashes, etc.  The bag will protect your gear from feet, but the best protection for gear is to stand as close as possible to your stand during the gig.

If I'm setup out in the open, say during an outdoor show, I'm really diligent about standing right up close to my stuff anyway.  Oftentimes, a drunk dude will come by and they like to grab onto the stand to stabilize themselves.  Hell, numbnuts will do that even if they're not drunk!  Stand close and when someone tries to push their way through a crowd, stand your ground and DO NOT budge away from your stand.  I get dirty looks for being so impolite regarding not giving way in a crowd, but that's the way it is when you're trying to protect several grand worth of gear.

Offline nottingham

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2008, 06:05:44 PM »
I modified my stand with a solid base so the drunk dude can grab the stand instead of tripping on one of the legs before he can grab it ;D For the gals that want to use it for a strip pole, well it can be a sacrifice (casualty of war).
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2008, 06:39:46 PM »
...the best protection for gear is to stand as close as possible to your stand during the gig.

If I'm setup out in the open, say during an outdoor show, I'm really diligent about standing right up close to my stuff anyway.  Oftentimes, a drunk dude will come by and they like to grab onto the stand to stabilize themselves.  Hell, numbnuts will do that even if they're not drunk!  Stand close and when someone tries to push their way through a crowd, stand your ground and DO NOT budge away from your stand...

I'm crying tears of truth!

[adding to my signature]

People also love to come stand right next to your equipment and hold beers over it, or if outside, set them down next to your gear 'for protection' so the beer doesn't get knocked over on the uneven ground.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 06:42:23 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2008, 07:31:31 PM »
Agreed that bag "protected" under the tripod is the obvious solution...in retrospect.....

I was JUST looking at the Lowepro web site when taking a break to check developments on this thread.  

I like the "window" bag idea a LOT!

I looked through a bunch of threads on gear bags---thought that would be easy and an afterthought!  NO WAY!  There were a few from the threads that caught my eye (those "window" bags refer to the Sonicase--other "top window" choices beyond them?)

Lowepro seems popular and has a LOT of choices.  That Targus Slam looked like a pretty good value in that syle bag.

Since I don't have all the gear in hand, I'm having a hard time getting my arms around the best size for my rig--can anyone give general suggestions on some short-list choices to look at for my gear volume?

Need room for my R-44, Busman BSC1's (I'd keep them in their box then in the bag??), maybe 3 mic cables (10-25' mix), the mic stand hardware that newplanet 7 suggested, plus enough expansion room for a second mic set since this is a 4 channel recorder and who-knows-what-else-I'll accumulate category.

Thought one of my old SLR bags would do...they are not going to be big enough.....

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2008, 07:42:05 PM »
can anyone give general suggestions on some short-list choices to look at for my gear volume?

Petrol PEGZ-2

In mine I have:

2 sets of mics in a Pelican 1060
Sonosax preamp
Apogee Mini Me (coming soon, shelf reserved for it though)
R44 + Impact battery system
2 sets of mounts
windscreens
2 tbars
clamp
2 pairs of cables
accessories (flashlight, tools, etc)
gaffers tape

It's stuffed like a christmas turkey, but it's all in there and by this time next week I'll have it fully wired so that nothing ever has to come out of the bag.

I've tried the Lowepros, the Sonicase and a number of other bags and this is hands down the best bag I've ever used.
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2008, 07:51:53 PM »
All it takes it one great sounding recording to get you back in the game full tilt.


http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=521145

 :D

Holy shit, that's a great sounding recording! Nice!!
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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2008, 08:06:51 PM »

I like the "window" bag idea a LOT!

I looked through a bunch of threads on gear bags---thought that would be easy and an afterthought!  NO WAY!  There were a few from the threads that caught my eye (those "window" bags refer to the Sonicase--other "top window" choices beyond them?)



I'm sure there are more but off the top of my head I can think of the Portabrace AudioOrganizers (AO series) and several Kata models besides the Sonic Case.

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2008, 08:19:06 PM »
As far as bags with the window, Petrol PEGZ is the best bag, IMHO bar none.  It's got great stability and many options (dividers and add on pockets) that come standard with the bag.  I love it particularly because it's got a place to hide a pint of coca cola, or whatever else you might need in an emergency (wink  ;))  Unfotunately, the PEGZ are quite expensive gear bags. 

Additional window bag options are the Soniccase and a Portabrace.  Portabrace makes a zillion custom designed bags for various gear.  A neat thing about PB is that the bag can be kinda modular in that you just add to it and there are some standard design features (velcro in the right places) that allow some of the pieces to be fit together.  A generic PB solution might be one of the 'general' bags (sorry can't remember a model number) with one of the side bags attached...the side bags are the RM-Multi or RM-Multi Deluxe...Deluxe being slightly larger side attachment pocket.  The Multi and Deluxe each have their own zipper closure and window top.

Personal choices would be the PEGZ first choice, Soniccase second and PB third, although the Sonic and PB really are equally nice...I've owned all three.

The bad thing is that any of these bags will run upwards of $150 and the PEGZ I think goes for a little over 2 bills.  But if you post an ISO on the Yard Sale, you are likely to turn up something for alot less.  Bags rotate around the YS like a merry go round!  LOL.

Most people reason though that with all of the money we have invested, it's good to have good protection and use a better safe than sorry attitude when buying a bag. 

A PS to the above discussion is that all of thse expensive bags have snorkels on them.  These snorkels allow the cables to be run out the side of the bag and cinched down so that the cables don't run out the top of the bag. AGain, this helps to keep everything on the inside nice and dry in a beer infested club, or outside when it starts to rain.  These are situaitons when these bags really are worth the price we paid.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 08:26:04 PM by tonedeaf »

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2008, 08:40:55 PM »
Agree with everything Steve said above.

The Petrol is $185 at B&H right now plus a couple bucks shipping.  That's a steal of a deal IMO.


All it takes it one great sounding recording to get you back in the game full tilt.


http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=521145

 :D

Holy shit, that's a great sounding recording! Nice!!

Now you know why I prefer Nevatons over all the "usual suspects".   ;D
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2008, 10:06:46 PM »
This bag thing seems to be the least controversial subject on the forum.  I looked around more (must have done at least a thousand Googles in the last 6 days!!!) and found nothing that really looked promising beyond the suggested bags.  The Petrol seems like the closest thing to a no-brainer in this whole equipment selection process.  This rig is SO far over budget, the 150 buck premium hardly even fazes me.  Hmmm...how was that..."check you wallet at the door"...  I was hoping $500 for a budget rig, thinking $700 was more likely, realized a good recorder started at $400, and well....don't want to do the math now....

Makes no sense to buy all this nice equipment and put it in a bag that is less than optimal for  the task at hand.

Aside from verifying a couple tripod hardware parts and cable adapters, I think the finish line is actually in sight.  Might even get done before 2AM at this rate.  Feel like I have not been on vacation the last week, not thet this has not been a fun journey.  Even a work week is only 50-60 hours compared to probably 80 on this project...

Looks like rock 'n roll next weekend if no delivery surprises!


Thanks to all who have kept me on the right path.

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2008, 12:40:56 PM »
Makes no sense to buy all this nice equipment and put it in a bag that is less than optimal for  the task at hand.

Thanks to all who have kept me on the right path.

Hey jim1274, good for you!  So now that you've got all of your stuff ordered for the most part, here's a couple more words of wisdom.

Set it all up before the gig and pretend that you're at the show.  What I suggest is to set your stand up in front of your stereo and pretend the speakers are the PA.  Simulate the club by turning the lights out.  This will cause you not to forget your flashlight!  Then set everything up and run the sound through your recorder for awhile.  Turn it on and off.  Get familiar with the controls on the recorder in the dark.  Get familiar with which switches turn the recorders backlight on and off, without aid of a flashlight.

IMPORTANT:  Then test to make sure you've recorded samples properly and they came through fine in your recording chain.  The best way to do this is to be anal and take the practice sound bites all the way to your software...Audition or whatever. 

The idea is to learn these couple of errors that you might make in your living room, not at the gig when it's too late to fix them.  Also, understand that just because you see levels peaking at the right spots on the meters, doesn't always mean that you're getting good sound...although it's usually the case.  But knowing your gear a little bit ahead of time by practicing can help increase your confidence level that you're getting the goods during the show.

One caution...you are recording in 24bit so you don't need to push your levels at all.  A common mistake in the last two or three years is for people to push their levels way up towards the red zone because that's what we did in the old days.  With 24bit recorders, you don't have to do that because the bit depth captures the sound with sufficient resolution that you really can leave TONS of headroom and bump the levels later in post and retain 100% of the sound.  This subject is discussed ad nauseum on these forums and this is one subject that's not debated...leave lots of headroom in 24bit so that you never have to worry about coming close to clipping.  (You could actualy prove this to yourself if you wanted...when practicing, simply conduct a sample in your living room by running your levels through range from low to high and then adjust/normalize the levels in post to see how the fidelity of the end product is affected...chances are you won't hear much, if any, difference...that is until your recorder levels are so high that you overload the internal preamps on the recorder.)

If you practice even just a little bit, I promise you that you'll eliminate one or two screwed up recordings along the way.  As simple as this all seems when you have it all laid out in front of you before the gig, if you don't practice with it, Murphy definitely  _WILL_ show up and mess with you.  It's a taperssection law! 

So, what I guess I'm suggesting is that when you get out to the gig and discover something that you did wrong or something that you need to learn or ask about, don't feel alone because literally 100% of us on this list have gone through the same thing and if there's a mistake that can be made a) you'll make it, and b) we've all done it before you.

So mainly have fun and if you can practice a little ahead of time and it will pay off for you. 

« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 12:49:13 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2008, 01:47:23 PM »
Could save a few dollars on the bag.. I use a softsided $12 Wallyworld cooler that works a charm. 

I like it because it has an interior rigid plastic tub and soft insulation padding outside that for excellent shock protection, great pockets, handles, shoulder-strap, zippered top, and the window opening.  I originally planned to glue some clear plastic window material in there with some flexible construction adhesive, but never got around to it & now I prefer it this way. I open the flap to check things and can reach in there to adjust, then close it again.  It has successfully deflected a spilled beer to the top. I keep the batteries, cables, V3 and two compartments wedged in the tub with foam.  The compartments (plastic quart paint mixing containers) were originally set up to hold large and heavy ADK TL's, all set up and ready to go in their suspensions with the windscreens on.  Last time out I used other mics in the photos below there are cables and rip-tie tape in there instead.

I originally got on the idea of the soft sided cooler as the ultimate 'wet ground' protection at outdoor events.  Even if it starts pouring I can pull out the large, thick hefty bag folded up in the pocket on the side and put the whole bag in there.  Even if that leaks sitting in a puddle the water won't get into the tub from below.

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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2008, 06:18:36 PM »
Gutbucket,

You tapers are a creative bunch.  That looks like pretty slick budget bag, especially for outdoors. Didn't think about outdoor taping, but suppose I'll eventually be trying that too....   That Petrol looks really nice, though....

Tonedeaf,

Thanks for the pointers.  Practicing with my living room stereo is EXACTLY what I had in mind for practice.  The idea of doing it in the dark was a good one I had not thought of--thanks!  The more I read, the more I realize how much there is to learn....  I won't have much time to practice before the real deal---my musician friend is coming Saturday for session number 2.  At least I'll have the right equipment, even if I barely have a clue on how to best use it.  Guess that is how you learn...

Thanks again to all who have guided me....on my hijacked thread....   Probably should have started a new thread for newbie help, but this really started on the right track, trying to get to the bottom of R-44 stock vs. Oade mod.

Not sure if I should have PM'd  you guys on general thanks for the continued input, but wanted everyone to know I'm monitoring the thread and appreciate everyone's input and help. 

Great forum--thanks again to all.  Can't imagine making it to this point without this forum--indispensable.


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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2008, 07:53:12 PM »
The idea of doing it in the dark was a good one I had not thought of--thanks! 

I gotta admit, I never thought of that either.

Good suggestion, Steve!   :cheers:
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Offline jim1274

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Re: Oade R44 super Mod vs Concert Mod
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2008, 04:31:19 PM »
The Petrol and all the other hardware/tripod goodies from B&H came today, plus the Busman Mics.  If the FedEx guy had knocked on the door a little louder, I'd have the R-44 and be setting up to practice.  I am really bummed about FedEx's lame delivery attempt, and even tried calling FedEx to see if I could go meet the driver someplace.  They were not accommodating.  Guess I sit at the door Friday morning and wait for him....

I can't say enough superlatives about the service from Doug Oade during the purchase process.  Chase Visa created a nightmare by deciding that all these purchases in a short time were suspicious, and locked my account without telling me.  It took 4 or 5 calls to FINALLY resolve it.  Poor Doug had to stop what he was doing multiple times to try and get the charge through and R-44 shipped on Monday, and said he'd upgrade shipping for free if we could not get it fixed before Tuesday.  If there is better service than Doug Oade gave me, I don't know what that might be.  Oade get's my highest recommendation.

And kudos to Chris Johnson at Busman for getting the mics to me so quickly.

That Petrol PEGZ-2 bag needs an instruction manual with it!  I say that only half-jokingly!  Still trying to figure out what the double outboard side pouches were intended for.... I kinda get the general bag scheme after looking at it for a few minutes--a lot different than other gear bags I have owned! The Busman mics come in a pretty big hard plastic box--looks like a case you'd get a cordless drill or some such in---sure is not going to fit in the Petrol!!!.  It would be nice to fit all the gear in one bag--not going to happen with this combo! (the shockmounts look very fragile--they need to live in the case it seems.  Otherwise, I could ditch his big case and repack the kit in the Petrol) Maybe I'll throw it all in a bigger duffel bag or some such.  This rig sure is getting far from compact!

Any photos from you Petrol PEGZ-2 owners of your loaded bags might help get my creative juices flowing....

Time to open the other B&H boxes and start my tripod erector set.....

 

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