Topic: PART V: M-Audio MicroTracker details

[Brian Skalinder]

Part IV

[bagtagsell]

what are we going to talk about when this thing works like a charm.   

[it-goes-to-eleven]

what are we going to talk about when this thing works like a charm.   

How to replace the internal battery.

[udovdh]

what are we going to talk about when this thing works like a charm.   

How to replace the internal battery.

And replace it by a more powerful (higher capacity) replacement.

[rdvdijk]

An out of production (more or less 'old') portable Sony DAT deck can run a 120 meter DDS2 tape for 4+ hours of audio and still have juice left for rewind, etc.
The Sony is a delicate mechanical device.
The M-Audio has fewer moving parts, no motors and better battery technology than two Duracell AA cells.
If it cannot record 4 hours straight (I remember 8 hour runtimes advertised?) it makes me wonder.

This is an *excellent* point, the best MT-battery related argument so far.

Where could the machine be spending all its energy on? (Is it losing power through the 30V phantom even when it's turned off,  maybe? .. wild guess)

I'm not a big expert on electronics, but how much more complicated are the MT's internals compared to a DAT deck? Are they even comparable?

Roel

[it-goes-to-eleven]

We don't know the capacity of that battery.  From the pics, it is very thin and much smaller than a jb3 bat. So it may not be an issue of drain so much as initial cap.

I do feel that the menus are sluggish. That suggests their event processing isn't ideal. They may be burning CPU needlessly and they may be able to reduce power there (somewhat).

I'm going to try and downsize a usb power back to use AAA's.  I just haven't gotten out to get the parts yet.  Also, the USB cable comes out at a right angle on mine so minimally, that needs fixin.

[Sebastian]

I'm going to try and downsize a usb power back to use AAA's.

You mean something like this?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Exactly!  That one is 1.8x2.6x.67" for the non-metric audience. Good price too..  I'd probably add a custom cable to avoid the socket adapt.

[udovdh]

An out of production (more or less 'old') portable Sony DAT deck can run a 120 meter DDS2 tape for 4+ hours of audio and still have juice left for rewind, etc.
The Sony is a delicate mechanical device.
The M-Audio has fewer moving parts, no motors and better battery technology than two Duracell AA cells.
If it cannot record 4 hours straight (I remember 8 hour runtimes advertised?) it makes me wonder.

This is an *excellent* point, the best MT-battery related argument so far.

Thanks!
With a Sony portable as guidance I think a current device should do at least the same w.r.t. recording time, SNR, DR+N, etc.
But it doesn't (yet).
Analog electronics have improved. With lower voltage rails, still HiFi audio is possible.
Battery technology has improved, Li-Polymer wins over Li-Ion and NIMH. (not?). No more memory effect, more power per cubic whatever.
Storage capacity (CF, SD, DAT, etc) has increased. Media now carry more and more data.
Still the industry has to produce something as small, versatile, usful, etc as a Sony D100 portable DAT deck. A device of 7+ years old, fragile, mechanical, etc and outperforming most of them all on just 2 AA cells. (w.r.t. good 16-bit recordings)

Therefor: what did the M-Audio technicians look at when designing the MT?

[prof_peabody]

I'm going to try and downsize a usb power back to use AAA's.

You mean something like this?

+T

[John Kelly]

Therefor: what did the M-Audio technicians look at when designing the MT?

I have a feeling that it's not as simple as everyone here makes it out to be.

[udovdh]

Therefor: what did the M-Audio technicians look at when designing the MT?

I have a feeling that it's not as simple as everyone here makes it out to be.

I did not say it was simple. I did try to make a point that technology advances, yet an (until now) inferior product is produced.
(although there were possibilities to do even better than the state of the art...)
I am aware of price onstraints, project schedules, market goals, etc, etc
I guess this really means the market that Sony tried to fill with the D7/8, D100 and M1 is gone. The market was made by the producer. Currently the producer doesn't know what is good.
Cheap wannabe products canot take the place of `solid` gear (fragile yet OK if well maintained).
More expensive efforts fill the niche markets.

[Ed.]

lets remember that m-audio isn't sony first off.  they have no reason to follow sony's design in their production.  m-audio is their own company, they made a product the way they wanted...if you don't like the product, don't buy it.  to me that seems pretty simple. 

i wasn't a fan of hi-md, which seems to be sony's future of recording...when hi-md came out, i didn't complain about it being only 16/44...i didn't demand that it be 24bit, nor did i care really. i just chose not to buy it. 

if this piece of equipment isn't what you need, don't buy it.  it seems like the logical thing to do.  i don't see where calling it an inferior piece of gear on ts.com is making much headway.  especially when it seems like it'll work for a large number of us and do exactly what we need it to do....record 24bit from our pre/adc.  for me, this seems like the next logical piece of equipment to buy to upgrade my rig.

[BC]

Still the industry has to produce something as small, versatile, usful, etc as a Sony D100 portable DAT deck. A device of 7+ years old, fragile, mechanical, etc and outperforming most of them all on just 2 AA cells. (w.r.t. good 16-bit recordings)

Ha, funny you mention that. I just brought out my old D8 for a bunch of shows this past weekend due to my lappy crapping out. To be honest the D8 is great for stealthing, very easy to find the correct buttons in the dark without needing to look at the deck, you can feel the record mechanism engage when you press rec and the transport start up when you begin recording, which is very reassuring when rolling tape in the dark when taking a peek at your deck is not possible. I was thinking it would be great if I could just take the chassis and replace the tape transport with a hard drive.     

[udovdh]

if this piece of equipment isn't what you need, don't buy it.  it seems like the logical thing to do.  i don't see where calling it an inferior piece of gear on ts.com is making much headway. 

It's not about calling it inferior. It is about missed opportunities. e.g. Rebooting recorders are not of this time.
No line at 1/8" is a small hindrance but why did they leave it out?
Etc, etc

[cmoorevt]

What is everyone using for SPDIF cables to connect to this thing?  My Canare cables won't completely fit into the SPDIF input as the housing on the MT is too tight around the plug.  I am hesistant to shave the plastic off the MT to allow for more room. Any ideas?

[JasonSobel]

What is everyone using for SPDIF cables to connect to this thing?  My Canare cables won't completely fit into the SPDIF input as the housing on the MT is too tight around the plug.  I am hesistant to shave the plastic off the MT to allow for more room. Any ideas?

a while back, I wanted right-angle RCA connections for my S/PDIF cable, so I bought some right angle switchcraft connectors.

http://www.switchcraft.com/products/534.html

all of my cables have the "3502RAAU", but all of them look to be the same shape/size, just whether or not it's gold-plated or nickel-plated.

With these connectors, they fit perfectly nice and snug into the MicroTrack, but you don't have to force them or anything.  a perfect fit.  If you don't mind soldering your own cables, I recommend these.

edit to add - you can buy them from markertek.com and probably other places as well.

[neutrino]

What is everyone using for SPDIF cables to connect to this thing?  My Canare cables won't completely fit into the SPDIF input as the housing on the MT is too tight around the plug.  I am hesistant to shave the plastic off the MT to allow for more room. Any ideas?

That plastic plate around the in rca/spdif inputs separates from the other plastics of the housing when you disassemble the unit. So, if you were to open the MT to widen the spdif opening it could be done very neatly, and away from the other components of the unit.
dB-

[cmoorevt]

Thanks guys.

Not afraid of soldering at all, but I've never done it with a coax cable.  To what part of the right angle Swtichcraft plug do I solder the coax?

[JasonSobel]

Thanks guys.

Not afraid of soldering at all, but I've never done it with a coax cable.  To what part of the right angle Swtichcraft plug do I solder the coax?

for a coax cable, there is only one conductor and the shield.  the center conductor connects to the center "pin" on the RCA plug.  the shield goes to the outer part of the RCA plug.

I hope that was clear, or clear enough, anyway.  let me know if you'd like a more detailed explanation.

and as far as cabling goes, what I did was bought a 12-foot orange radio shack S/PDIF cable.  and then I bought lots of those right-angle connectors.  then I hacked up the orange cable, and made 4 or 5 short S/PDIF cables, or varying lengths.  some with the right-angles on both ends.  and two cables with a right-angle on one end, and the original straight RCA on the other end.  that worked for me very well.  or you could probably just buy some 75-ohm coaxial cable from markertek.com as well.

[cmoorevt]

for a coax cable, there is only one conductor and the shield.  the center conductor connects to the center "pin" on the RCA plug.  the shield goes to the outer part of the RCA plug.

I hope that was clear, or clear enough, anyway.  let me know if you'd like a more detailed explanation.

Thanks Jason.  I've made regular non-soldered spdif cables before, so that makes sense.  I was just unsure what part of the conductor went to what part of the plug.

I actually just went to Radio Shack and found a right angle RCA plug.  Basically an RCA plug extender.  The female end of the plug accepts a male rca, so I plugged my canare spdif cable into it and then the male end of the Radio Shack right angle plug into the MT.  Perfect fit.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=274-915

[TenoRichards]

Need to read more closely to see if this has been covered, but....

Someone asked wtf could be draining the batteries so quickly....Is the headphone/line out whatever active while recording? I remember Sony telling people to 'MAKE SURE to turn DOWN the MD units while recording as this will much more quickly drain the internal batteries."

FWIW
Andrew

[it-goes-to-eleven]

FWIW, I always try and remember to turn down the headphone output on any recorder because it could cause noise in the pre-amp.  I figure the less signal floating around the better.

[MarkyMark]

Need to read more closely to see if this has been covered, but....

Someone asked wtf could be draining the batteries so quickly....Is the headphone/line out whatever active while recording? I remember Sony telling people to 'MAKE SURE to turn DOWN the MD units while recording as this will much more quickly drain the internal batteries."

FWIW
Andrew

I haven't tried the line outs yet, but yes, the headphone jack is active while recording.

[mmedley.]

Need to read more closely to see if this has been covered, but....

Someone asked wtf could be draining the batteries so quickly....Is the headphone/line out whatever active while recording? I remember Sony telling people to 'MAKE SURE to turn DOWN the MD units while recording as this will much more quickly drain the internal batteries."

FWIW
Andrew

I haven't tried the line outs yet, but yes, the headphone jack is active while recording.

From my quick test last night, I did not get anything from headphone out recording from SPDIF at 24/48.

First chance I've gotten to mess with it though since I got it.

[mmedley.]

What is everyone using for SPDIF cables to connect to this thing?  My Canare cables won't completely fit into the SPDIF input as the housing on the MT is too tight around the plug.  I am hesistant to shave the plastic off the MT to allow for more room. Any ideas?

FYI...go to your computer store and look for alternate USB cables. I have one that came with my Canon digicam (exact same as the MT's), but the USB cable housing on the MT end is MUCH smaller and allows fatter SPDIF cables to be plugged in concurrently.

You might be able to order from Canon. It is the best option I have found so far.

Edit:

Link to Canon site for cable.

http://www.canoncompanystore.com/epages/annex.storefront?ProductDetail=9370A001AA

[clarson]

From my quick test last night, I did not get anything from headphone out recording from SPDIF at 24/48.

Same here

[coloartist]

What is everyone using for SPDIF cables to connect to this thing?  My Canare cables won't completely fit into the SPDIF input as the housing on the MT is too tight around the plug.  I am hesistant to shave the plastic off the MT to allow for more room. Any ideas?

I have 4 digital coax cables. The only one that fits the MT is my right angle coax from www.kindkables.com . It fits very snug, and my external usb power cable fits next to it with a little trimming on the spdif side. I don't see the one on the KK site, but I'm sure Ed would have no problem making some.

[ShawnF]

That's Todd's larger version of the juice box, with the pass-through in addition to the 5V, right?

[jbraveman]

Notes on 1st MT (upgraded firmware) recording experience (and 1st 24 bit). 

Scofield 10-12-05 at Stone Church in NH.  Ran 4022 > Sonosax > MT.  I was about 8 ft from the stage clamped to the ceiling, about 9 ft up.  I ran the sax on low gain with the levels at one or two clicks from the lowest setting.  The MT was line in (1/4 TRS) and the recording level was about 40%.  I was recording to a 6gb apple microdrive at 24/96.  The levels were good and only a few points at the very loudest did I get the red indicator lights to come on.  I used a usb battery pack just to be sure that I didn't have any battery issues.  I was able to start and restart the recording at around 45 mins during applause.  I did it again before the encore.  The restart process only took a few seconds.  I had no hangs or freeze ups.  As others have mentioned, the meters become useless after a while.  The good news is that the red indicator lights still come on for high levels.

On first listen the recording sounds incredible.  24 bit is definitely the way to go.  However, I've already found 3 glitches.  One sounds like a skip and the other 2 sound like short static bursts (0.2 seconds or so).  I checked them out in goldwave.  One of the glitches looks like the diginoise I sometimes see on DAT transfers with the wave sqared off.  The other one that sounds like a click does not show high bursts in the wave editor.  Could these be related to the microdrive and the sample rate?  I'm tempted to grab a 4gb CF card before my next 2 shows which are this friday and saturday.    Thoughts    It was a great, great show.

[silentmark]

Nice that you got it to work at 24/96, although it is more stable at 24/48, this might be the source of your glitches, it could also be the microdrive ...

[clarson]

it could be the microdrive. I recorded silence through the 1/8" and the  1/4" and every once in a while I could hear the microdrive spin, or something inside of it "ticking".

[neutrino]

it could be the microdrive. I recorded silence through the 1/8" and the  1/4" and every once in a while I could hear the microdrive spin, or something inside of it "ticking".

Were you playing back the file via the MT itself, or did you download the files to a PC and then playback? I haven't noticed any artifacts when recording with my MT and a Hitachi/Apple 6gb microdrive, but I do hear added noise if I try and play back a file directly from the microdrive. Also, I haven't heard of anyone having stability issues with the MT recording through the analog inputs, it's only when trying to record a digital signal through the spdif has it been most problematic.
dB-

[coloartist]

That's Todd's larger version of the juice box, with the pass-through in addition to the 5V, right?

That Juicebox has two 5v outputs. One for my MT, and one for my JB3. It is powered from a Walmart Battery.

[eupeptic]

On first listen the recording sounds incredible.  24 bit is definitely the way to go.  However, I've already found 3 glitches.  One sounds like a skip and the other 2 sound like short static bursts (0.2 seconds or so).  I checked them out in goldwave.  One of the glitches looks like the diginoise I sometimes see on DAT transfers with the wave sqared off.  The other one that sounds like a click does not show high bursts in the wave editor.  Could these be related to the microdrive and the sample rate?  I'm tempted to grab a 4gb CF card before my next 2 shows which are this friday and saturday.    Thoughts    It was a great, great show.

A 4GB CF card would certainly be a good thing to have. (Sometimes microdrives seem to fail when a butterfly sneezes nearby, while regular CF cards (at least Sandisk) are likely to keep on working even after they've gone through the washing machine, or fallen a couple dozen feet onto a hard surface. (But the price and capacity of microdrives sure makes them tempting to have provided that you don't drop things too often... ))

Though you might first try formatting the microdrive with 64K clusters (under Windows 2k/XP, right-click on My Computer -> Manage -> Disk Management - and the format command gives you the option to select the 'Allocation unit size'; or just use the format command from the Command Prompt). (This should reduce the amount of seeking that the heads have to do while the drive's being used.)

You could also try using 24/48 instead of 24/96 (which cuts down the amount of data that's being written to the microdrive - maybe enough so that you wouldn't get any more glitches), but that's not as ideal as having it work flawlessly at 24/96...


Also, it might be interesting to see if the 5GB Segate ST1 microdrive works any better than the Hitachi microdrives (as the Segate has a 2MB cache vs the Hitachi's 128KB, and it has higher sustained read/write transfer rates). (Though what I've read at on the forums at dpreview.com is that it drains camera batteries a lot faster than the Hitachi drives do.)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/print/seagate-st1-5gb.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/print/hitachi-microdrive.html

[udovdh]

On first listen the recording sounds incredible.  24 bit is definitely the way to go.  However, I've already found 3 glitches.  One sounds like a skip and the other 2 sound like short static bursts (0.2 seconds or so).  I checked them out in goldwave.  One of the glitches looks like the diginoise I sometimes see on DAT transfers with the wave sqared off.  The other one that sounds like a click does not show high bursts in the wave editor.  Could these be related to the microdrive and the sample rate?  I'm tempted to grab a 4gb CF card before my next 2 shows which are this friday and saturday.    Thoughts    It was a great, great show.

Though you might first try formatting the microdrive with 64K clusters (under Windows 2k/XP, right-click on My Computer -> Manage -> Disk Management - and the format command gives you the option to select the 'Allocation unit size'; or just use the format command from the Command Prompt). (This should reduce the amount of seeking that the heads have to do while the drive's being used.)

BTW: How does the MT format a 4GB CF card? (any opinions on the formatting chosen?)

[jbraveman]

it could be the microdrive. I recorded silence through the 1/8" and the  1/4" and every once in a while I could hear the microdrive spin, or something inside of it "ticking".

Were you playing back the file via the MT itself, or did you download the files to a PC and then playback? I haven't noticed any artifacts when recording with my MT and a Hitachi/Apple 6gb microdrive, but I do hear added noise if I try and play back a file directly from the microdrive. Also, I haven't heard of anyone having stability issues with the MT recording through the analog inputs, it's only when trying to record a digital signal through the spdif has it been most problematic.
dB-

I copied the files onto my computer.  I confirmed that they were not playback glitches in the wav editor.  The skip suggests to me that there was a brief pause in the writing of the data stream.  I don't know what kind of buffer the recorder has, but it seems possible that at 24/96, the recorder was unable to keep up when there was slowdown in the drive.  I'm gonig to try 24/48 on my 4gb microdrive at Winwood on friday.  Otherwise, I'll have to get a CF card.

[ShawnF]

That's Todd's larger version of the juice box, with the pass-through in addition to the 5V, right?

That Juicebox has two 5v outputs. One for my MT, and one for my JB3. It is powered from a Walmart Battery.

Ah--I think I had assumed the other output was for the V3, I guess, though I don't know why.  Thanks!  End of hijack.

[coloartist]

That's Todd's larger version of the juice box, with the pass-through in addition to the 5V, right?

That Juicebox has two 5v outputs. One for my MT, and one for my JB3. It is powered from a Walmart Battery.

Ah--I think I had assumed the other output was for the V3, I guess, though I don't know why.  Thanks!  End of hijack.

I have a second Walmart Battery, and a 12 hour battery from Kindkables for my V3.

[plucks]

ToddR's right angle coax also fits flawlessly with the usb cable

[headroom]

S/PDIF output extension for Portable MiniDisc Devices Here's a very trivial S/PDIF transmitter hack for portable MiniDiscs and other digital audio devices lacking S/PDIF output.

Maybe somebody can use this idea as inspiration as a hack for SPIDI OUT on the Microtracker?