Topic: micing a drum set with limited mics?

[nic]

the band I run sound for has a very limited selection of mics and we have no budget for purchasing more.
since I picked up a set of the ADK TL's(for taping), I can now use my AKG 391s for drum micing. I've made due in the past with 3 Shure SM58's(1 on kick and 2 overhead) but its not that great for the low-end, especially on the kick(due to the rolloff).

am thinking of using a 391 on the kick, a SM58 between the snare and high-hat, 1 391 between the toms and 2x SM58 as overheads.

given this 5 mic scenario anyone have any other ideas as to placement?
also, we have no outboard compressor or EQ.


any help is appreciated.

[chuckcage]

the band I run sound for has a very limited selection of mics and we have no budget for purchasing more.
since I picked up a set of the ADK TL's(for taping), I can now use my AKG 391s for drum micing. I've made due in the past with 3 Shure SM58's(1 on kick and 2 overhead) but its not that great for the low-end, especially on the kick(due to the rolloff).

am thinking of using a 391 on the kick, a SM58 between the snare and high-hat, 1 391 between the toms and 2x SM58 as overheads.

given this 5 mic scenario anyone have any other ideas as to placement?
also, we have no outboard compressor or EQ.

I've found (and read, too) that the generally accepted order of mic use is:

1 mic: omni overhead
2 mics: cardoid overheads
3 mics: cardoid overheads + kick
4 mics: cardoid overheads + kick + snare

Beyond that, it's up to you.

Personally, I've been using a pair of AKG C1000s as overheads for quite a while with really good results.  Generally I place them on the outside of kit angled in a bit, generally with one pointed a little less angled to put the hat more directly in the pattern and the other angled a little more to put the snare more directly in the pattern.  You have to listen, though, as it's pretty easy to get phasing problems.  In the studio, you'd probably want to calculate and measure, but for live use I just use my ears.  I'd bet your 391s would work wonderfully as overheads.  The "AKG sound" really does the kit well.

I don't know how many times I've gone into a club and seen the sound guy micing every tom and using no overheads.  When you ask, they inevitably say, "The cymbals are so loud they'll be heard anyway, and the tom mics'll pick em up."  I guess I more subscribe to the "get good overheads, then fill in the rest" school of drum micing.  Of course, I play with more jam/rock/jazz/fusion groups.

You can limp by with a 58 on the kick, but it just doesn't have the low end response to sound right, no matter how much you turn up the low eq.  If you've got three 58s, I'd sell them and turn them into an AKG D112 for the kick and a 57 for the snare.  The D112 can be had for ~$200 new/used, and the 57s are $79 new most everywhere.  You'll notice the D112 difference immediately -- it's frequency response is tailored to kick and bass cabinets, so it sounds "right" even flat.  It's also almost undistortable with something like 170+ dB SPL capability, which means you can stick it anywhere you want on the kick and it'll be fine.  (Let your ear decide.)

For what it's worth, this is what I run, and I think it's the best low-cost solution out there.  The drummer I'm currently playing with says it sounds better to him than 99% of the pro many-mic setups he's played with.

I've got recordings, BTW, if you want to hear this setup.

Chuck

[nic]

I definately agree on using overheads.
unfortunately, its not up to me in selling the SM58s as they belong to the keyboard player.
I'm definately going to use a 391 on the kick, and will probably just use 2 SM58s as overheads. I was thinking of using the other 391 to fill in the low end for the toms.

I could always use the 391s to record and use a TL in omni or fig8 as the overhead and a TL for the kick(card or omni?)

thanks again...just trying to figure this out in my head before the show tonight

[nic]

chuck...
do you usually mic instruments or use directs?

[chuckcage]

I definately agree on using overheads.
unfortunately, its not up to me in selling the SM58s as they belong to the keyboard player.
I'm definately going to use a 391 on the kick, and will probably just use 2 SM58s as overheads. I was thinking of using the other 391 to fill in the low end for the toms.

I could always use the 391s to record and use a TL in omni or fig8 as the overhead and a TL for the kick(card or omni?)

thanks again...just trying to figure this out in my head before the show tonight

I'm playing tonight, too.  First gig with Popper's Groove -- a Blues Traveler tribute band.  A little hairy -- we picked up 30 BT tunes in 10 rehearsals.  

I definitely wouldn't use the 58s as overheads.  They'll sound like ass.  They're designed for use as vocals, and have a big dip in frequency response where they expect to get it back via presence boost (because you're eating them when singing).  If you've got to use what you've got, use the 391s as overheads and 58s on the kick and snare.

You'll be OK.  I'm guessing you're not at a huge venue, and if you only have these mics, you're probably not running a huge PA anyway.  If you're not running subs, you're not going to miss that kick low too much anyway.  Just EQ the 58 to get some slap from the beater, then put a little low in.  For small mains, that'll work fine.

Make sure you've got stands -- you'll need two booms for the overheads, a short/short boom for the kick, and either an LP clamp or a boom for the snare.  (Clamp is cheap and great.)

When you're soundchecking, check signals first, then bring up the overheads, then everything else to fill in.

chuck...
do you usually mic instruments or use directs?

I mic guitars (though it's questionable with the Line 6/Vox amps that have line outs.  I don't mind the line outs, but most guitarists have a natural hatred for them), and direct my bass.  I'm running an Eden Navigator, though, which has a nice DI built in.  Of course, you're pretty much going to have to DI the bass if you're this short on mics.  (Without a proper mic, you're WAY better with direct.)  Keys -- direct, of course.  You definitely don't want to direct a guitar from the instrument.

Good luck at the gig tonight.  Let me know how it works out.

Chuck

[plucks]

For Drums/Percussion: Standard condenser (except kick-drum). One or two mics about 18-24 inches above set. Mic position critical for balance between drums, cymbals, etc...
Obviously, the fewer mics available for use will result in not always getting the sound that you want.
Here is a good link for miking drums.
http://members.tripod.com/~offbeat2/snddrums.html

 Most microphone manufacturers have "drum" mics that are quite affordable

This article is very lengthy and covers most everything!
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030608202450172188063054257585/g=home/s=articles/content/doc_id=80865


Good luck!

Phil

[Cooker]

definitely go with the cards overhead and the omnis in the kick and on the snare.

if you can swap a 58 for a 57 somehow - borrow it, etc, do that for the snare and run the 58 in the kick.

cards as overheads will pick up plenty of hat and toms but, the rides and  crashes may overpower them. work with placement to not get too much cymbal

[CQ_DX]

Blecch - the 58's really are not good for anything but vocal micing.   Get a mic that is specifically tailored for a kick response as others noted above.

I run sound at a local club 1 night a week, we use 4 mics for drums.  An Audio Technica kick mic (damned if I can remember the model #, but it's for this application specifically), a Shure 57 on the snare on a snare clamp stand, with the element right between the snare head and the hi-hat, and then two (gulp) Radio Shack cardioids for overhead - usually one pointed at the top toms and one at the floor tom and ride cymbal.   Limited mics and limited quality, but they sound good enough for the room we use them in (club that holds maybe 250 when packed to the gills).  I don't get to pick the gear, it all belongs to the house.

A cheapie trick we there also is to use an Alesis compressor/gate to gate off the kick mic.  That way you get only kick and not the rest of the kit and the other low freq "mung" that might be drifting around the stage through the kick mic.  Works fabulous.

[sexymexi]

yes. get a kick drum mic.. they sound so much better...  you can pick up the akg D112, that sounds great when i've used it for 5-6 bands.  but as for using a condensor like the 391 in a kick, i don't think thats gonna sound so great personally, if you have your 57's use them for mic'ing the toms, and use your 391's for overheads, thats the basic for mic'ing a set i'd say, i've not really seen people use condensors for live mic'ing their sets.  i've had decent results from just micing the kick, and my 391's for overheads, that was just for messing around, but sounded pretty good.  all in all use your condensors for overheads, and the dynamic 57's or 58's even, for the rest, and kick drum mics are made for them try them they sound much better...

matt

[chuckcage]

Just for the record, condensers will sound fine as kick mics.  I did some recording with three AKG 414-BULS large diaphram condensers -- one on kick, two as overheads -- that sound excellent.  It's just that if you only have two cardoid condensers, they need to be overheads first.  

Also, I'll say it again -- if you have decent condensers as overheads, start by listening to what you're getting from them before trying to mic other drums.  I'll bet that 95% of the time you'll be perfectly happy with the tom sound you're getting there (and 75% of the time you'll be perfectly happy with the snare sound, too).  Mic toms only when you've already got overheads, kick, and snare properly covered and have mics/channels/mixing time & effort to spare.

Chuck

[nic]

well, I ended up using 3 mics, 2x 391 and a SM58:
391 on kick
391 overhead
SM58 between the snare and high-hat.

sounded great in the room(finally got the oomph from the kick that the SM58 could never dream of providing)

as for recording, I ended up with only 1 ADK TL as I had to use 1 of the XLR's to replace a bad cable on stage, so I decided to play with fig-8 and omni.
ran fig-8 for first set and omni for second set...will never run a single omni again. it was like I had the mic in a metal trashcan and put a 50ms delay on it...ugh!
however, the fig-8 sounded pretty decent but I had the mic raised a little too high as it picked some weird bass frequencies from the ceiling...still, miles better than the omni