Topic: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)

[BayTaynt3d]

Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Brave, brave man.

[fobstl]

Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Boa is running his on the same 9 volt WalMart style dvd player battery he ran the R4 on. Seems to be working well.

[kskreider]

Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Like Ozpeter said, I would bet that you have your tip polarity reversed.

[digifish_music]

What this test does is to attempt to show R-44 preamp noise, or lack of, at full preamp gain.  Again, I used the Sennheiser MKH mics as it seems to be logical to use low noise mics for such a test.  First you hear the sound of a tiny clock about 2 inches from the mics, in a quiet suburban bedroom during the day.  Quiet, you say??  Well, with the gain involved you hear lots of background noise, but standing in the room you'd think the background was silent.  Now the first 20 seconds has the R-44 preamp gain set to -2dB - almost the minimum.  It's fed from a Sennheiser preamp with its gain knob set pretty high. The next 20 seconds is with the mics connected to the R-44 direct and with the preamp gain at its highest level.  This bit was with the R-44 powered by an external battery pack.  Then there's 20 secs with internal batteries, and the last 20 secs with external Edirol-supplied mains supply pack.

Link to file -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20test.mp3

Great post +T

Here's the spectrum for those who want to see it...



Interesting to see how the mp3 decoder loses some of the highest frequencies in the first part, falls below the threshold for reproduction I suppose.

So to be clear your second part is both the inner and outer knobs at maximum? I have been meaning to do the same test with the R44 and a MixPre, this weekend I hope, I have been insanely busy 

digifish

[Ozpeter]

No, the inner knob (continuously variable level) was at the "noon" position.  The jury seems to be out on whether that's a digital gain control or analog - the block diagram says digital but instinct tells me analog (the diagram seems wrong about the limiter too).   The Aussie Edirol people have asked Edirol Japan about those matters on my behalf but I've not had word back so far.

I've just had a look at the spectra of the wave and mp3 versions here, and the first 20 seconds look more like the rest when you increase the level of that part by about 4dB, which subjectively matches the rest better.  It's made a bit more complicated because the background noise character changes a little between the sections (according to what was passing in the road outside for instance).  So I wouldn't want anyone to get too analytical about the test - but it does give a good general indication that preamp noise can't be rated as problematic with this device, it seems to me.

[Ozpeter]

Oh, and about using external supplies - the menus provide for setting the display of battery life to a variety of external powering devices, so I'd say that Edirol are positively encouraging their use - so long as you observe the correct polarity and voltage range (common sense!) then no bravery seems required.

[digifish_music]

No, the inner knob (continuously variable level) was at the "noon" position.  The jury seems to be out on whether that's a digital gain control or analog - the block diagram says digital but instinct tells me analog (the diagram seems wrong about the limiter too).   The Aussie Edirol people have asked Edirol Japan about those matters on my behalf but I've not had word back so far.

I've just had a look at the spectra of the wave and mp3 versions here, and the first 20 seconds look more like the rest when you increase the level of that part by about 4dB, which subjectively matches the rest better.  It's made a bit more complicated because the background noise character changes a little between the sections (according to what was passing in the road outside for instance).  So I wouldn't want anyone to get too analytical about the test - but it does give a good general indication that preamp noise can't be rated as problematic with this device, it seems to me.

Points noted...so the outer-ring was full-right and the inner knob at 12 (I think that would be about 95% max gain, which is high). I think both knobs have to be operating in the analog domain, otherwise it just doesn't make much sense, and I agree with you on the limiter, I have asked Roland and still waiting for a response on the block diagram.

This weekend I will do the same test using a Rode NT1-A (has very low self noise) with a MixPre vs R44 preamps.

Plan -

using a Rode NT1-A and R-44 on internal batteries, I will...

R44: I will place the clock at a distance so that the peak meters reach -3 dB with outer-ring max, inner 12 o'clock.
MixPre: I will set the R44 to Minimum outer ring, 12 O'clock inner and then set the gain on the MixPre to deliver the same peak value (-3 dB?) the R44 preamps were delivering.

any comments on this plan?

digifish

[Ozpeter]

Sounds good - though when I did the external preamp part, with the R-44 on minimum gain I had to crank the external preamp gain up very near the top of its range to get the comparable level, at which point its gain knob was in the area when moving it just a hair made a big jump in gain - so I increased the gain at the R-44 by one step so that the external preamp's gain control was just below the point where the 'instability' of gain setting happens.  You might find you have to compromise similarly, depending on local circumstances.

Maybe have the clock back a little, peaking a bit lower (-6dB?) , so that the sound of the clock doesn't obscure any hiss?

[fobstl]

Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=515252

Worked great on Stereo x 2 at 24/44.1.

[Ozpeter]

Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:

Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

[BayTaynt3d]

Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:

Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

About the inner knob, that's just stupid. Won't keep me from buying the unit, but that is lame. The inner knob is dead to me, I see no point in using it whatsover considering my typical workflow. Same goes for the limiter, it's dead to me, just like the one on my R4, lol. Don't get me wrong, I still LOOOOOOOVE my R4, and I'm sure it won't be long before I pick up an R44.

As for the comment above about the limiter, it's interesting that at least it buys you more headroom if you need it (which it sounds like you can do even when you're already at the lowest sensativity), but doing the limiting in the digital domain after that seems kind of silly. Again, I'd rather do it in post at that point where I have more control, so the only way I could ever see using it is if I need the headroom, which seems unlikely.

[digifish_music]

Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:

Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

Thanks for that. 

So the R44 actually has only 11 analog level settings...odd. I suppose that this method means they can avoid the use of a variable pot for lower noise?

Well, I have my MixPre if I need infinitely variable and analog anything. On the other hand, experience with the R44 so far is that it sounds great, so...

digifish

[Ozpeter]

So the R44 actually has only 9 analog level settings...odd.

On my first serious outing with it I "scored" about -1dB of headroom, using the preset sensitivity controls alone.  If I'd been sensible perhaps I would have run it the next notch down, giving a peak of -7dB.  A lot of people, particularly those using 24 bits, aim for -12dB peaking.  One way and another, unlike the good old reel-to-reel days that I remember well (when every last bit of level had to be forced onto the tape), today the systems are so quiet all the way through that having a recording peaking at -7dB rather than at -1dB isn't much of an issue.  And the repeatability of notched settings is actually pretty handy, especially once you get to know which setting corresponds to what type of music in conjunction with a given mic.  On my Sennheiser preamp I have a red line marked that I line the trim knob up to, and I know that for almost all the stuff I do, that's the level.

Compare with the H2, which has three settings only - and two of those seem to provide the same dynamic range anyway, so it's only worth using M and L.  For my purposes, M covers just about all situations (I don't record amplified music).  I love simplicity!

[sonidista]

Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Brave, brave man.

No worries man, nothing broke
It just didn't turn on at all... I guess polarity will be the issue, which means I will have to get another cable.

[goofy23]

I am interested in a comparsion between Fostex Fr2LE and R44.
Which Pre-amps are better?
Which Limiter is better?
Which one handles better, espeacially analog leveling (as mentioned above with the two knobs of the inputs, which seems not so good on the R44?
Who sounds better?
Maybe this question is woth another thread but  like to ask here if i am allowed.
I know they are not comparable directly, cause one have 4 and one have 2 channels.
But they have simmilar size.
I looking for a small device that can replace a Field Mixer, like Sound Devices, SQN, Wendt, or in my case (no one knows) Mystere, in case of sound quality /Pre´s /Limiters/ and usabilty.