Topic: Help with Recorder purchase

[Jacklaster]

Hi guys-

Love the site, alot of good info here. I've searched and found numerous threads on different recorders, but not very many that compare multiple recorders and give an overall assessment of the "best" one. My friend has a Microtrack II and I have personally witnessed two concerts where the recorder crashed while trying to save the file after the show, so I know I don't want that one. He swears up and down that it doesn't NORMALLY do that, but I don't care. I've seen it happen twice and they were both recordings of two concerts that I really wanted a copy of. So F*** the Microtrack...

I think I've narrowed my choice down to 3 picks, but feel free to chime in if there's something else that you think is superior!

Edirol R-09 (good reviews on Amazon and here)

Sony PCM-D50 (also has good reviews and I love the sturdyness and ruggedness)

And the Zoom H4 (also has good reviews)


What I will be using it for:

Typically- Rock concert SBD patches. 96/24, and editing on a mac.

But I like the idea of having built-in mic's just in case I get turned away from the board patch, plus the mic's make the unit more versatile overall in different situations.

The type of inputs aren't much of a big deal-breaker, since I have adaptors for any situation, but I would like mini-TOSLINK...

I need controls over both the left and right channels independently and also a device that will record for at least 6 hours in 96/24.

And most importantly, it has to be sturdy and RELIABLE. I can't have it crash on me when I'm saving my recording!

Does anyone have any feedback on this? Can anyone tell me which one I should get? The price isn't really an issue, just want the absolute best option for around 500 bucks.

Thanks!

[cybergaloot]

Hi guys-

Love the site, alot of good info here. I've searched and found numerous threads on different recorders, but not very many that compare multiple recorders and give an overall assessment of the "best" one. My friend has a Microtrack II and I have personally witnessed two concerts where the recorder crashed while trying to save the file after the show, so I know I don't want that one. He swears up and down that it doesn't NORMALLY do that, but I don't care. I've seen it happen twice and they were both recordings of two concerts that I really wanted a copy of. So F*** the Microtrack...

No opinions here on which of those three recorders is best but I too have personally witnessed people have problems with Microtrack II's and have heard about others. Might have been operator error but I really don't know. I wasn't impressed. I have heard great recordings done with them though.

Not a personal opinion but based on what I've read here and there more people like the R-09HR (R-09 is the first generation, get an HR edition) and D50 than like the H4 (now H4n, the earlier H4 had some issues) but those weren't head to head comparisons. A whole lot of people use the R-09 and R-09HR's, probably more than the other two put together but that may be more because of cost and availability.

[Belexes]

I am a former R-09 owner and a current D50 owner.  The digi-in of the D50 is nice, making it a 24 bit bucket.  It is very sturdy and I like the built-in mics of it over the R-09.

The R-09HR is the second generation unit and is better built with lower self noise.

I'd steer you towards the D50 for your needs but the deal breaker is that there is not independent L - R gain controls.  I think only the MT's have those, but I have no experience with the Zoom.

[Jacklaster]

No opinions here on which of those three recorders is best but I too have personally witnessed people have problems with Microtrack II's and have heard about others. Might have been operator error but I really don't know. I wasn't impressed. I have heard great recordings done with them though.

Yeah, for sure. When they work, they can sound great. But I wouldn't want to take the chance. Thanks for your input!

I am a former R-09 owner and a current D50 owner.  The digi-in of the D50 is nice, making it a 24 bit bucket.  It is very sturdy and I like the built-in mics of it over the R-09.

The R-09HR is the second generation unit and is better built with lower self noise.

I'd steer you towards the D50 for your needs but the deal breaker is that there is not independent L - R gain controls.  I think only the MT's have those, but I have no experience with the Zoom.

The L-R Gain controls aren't really a deal-breaker, but you have to admit it's nice to have the option. The D50 seems very rugged and sturdy, which is a good thing. Another thing about the Microtrack is how cheap and flimsy it feels. No weight to it. I need my recorder to have some meat on it's bones!

So can anyone compare the R-09HR to the D50? How do these stack up to a Zoom H4?

[cybergaloot]

So can anyone compare the R-09HR to the D50? How do these stack up to a Zoom H4?

Since the consensus seems to be that both the R-09HR and the D50 are good units, I'd compare features that you want. The H4n is relatively new so there may not be much feedback on it yet. There were complaints about digi-noise with the older H4 from some people. I have heard some good recordings from one though and I have heard that some issues were addressed in the new version.

I'd tend to think the D50 would have better internal mics, but that isn't backed by any personal experience. A drawback to me is that it uses Memory Sticks instead of the more common and often on sale SDHC cards. The D50 screams "I'm a recorder" with its Star Trek tricorder appearance whereas the R-09HR looks a bit more innocent, like an MP3 player.

If having controls for each channel is a major concern, you might consider an R-44. It is outside of your $500 price range, it lists for about $900 but I got mine for $738 from Fullcompass. I found a "make an offer" deal on eBay for $750 then called Fullcompass and asked if they could beat that. They did and with free shipping.  The R-44 would give you four channels, two internal mics (probably the same as the R-09HR) and the option of running phantom powered external mics, all in a fairly small unit that can run off batteries. Its great for matrix recordings. What it doesn't have that the three you mention have is a tripod mount socket, if that's a concern. It really isn't designed to be mounted on a stand at all. I've never used the internal mics on my R-44 and from what I've seen, most other folks aren't either. Most seem to be either using it for matrix recordings or running four external mics.

You may not be interested in external mics now, but don't count out the possibility for the future.

[Belexes]

whereas the R-09HR looks a bit more innocent, like an MP3 player.

I think it looks like a shaver.

[cybergaloot]

Nah, this is an electric razor.

[cybergaloot]

Your hand is sexier though!

[stantheman1976]

I haven't used the R-09HR but I've seen many people say good things about it.  The D50 I own and love it.  The internal preamps are very good and the internal mics are great.  From what I hear the pres on the HR are much improved over the original model.  The D50 gets sick battery life.  Get a couple sets of rechargables and you'll never run out of power.  The main thing about the D50 is it uses prorietary memory sticks but the 4GB Sony sticks are only about $30 now.  It also has 4GB built in which I don't think the HR has any.

Aren't the internal mics on the HR omnis also?  For me that would make it more limited in use if so. 

[jlykos]

If you want mini-Toslink, then the D50 is definitely the way to go.  It has mini-Toslink inputs and outputs.

[Belexes]

Your hand is sexier though!

Males make terrible hand models.  Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with George.

[daspyknows]

I just ordered the new Tascam DR100 and should have it next week.  I think it is worth a look once it comes out.  It is small, around $400 and (hopefully) makes a good recording without any major issues.

[Jacklaster]

I just ordered the new Tascam DR100 and should have it next week.  I think it is worth a look once it comes out.  It is small, around $400 and (hopefully) makes a good recording without any major issues.

Wow, I like this too... Too many choices!!!

Would an 8 or 16gb SDHC card be compatible? If so, this might just be the recorder for me. Does it have independent gain for each channel? I can't find any literature on that...

How are Tascam's mics compared to Sony's?



Also, as for the Zoom H4n, the 4-track feature is awesome in theory. I can't find any literature on whether it can record 24/96 on all 4 channels, or if it is limited to 16/44.1? Doing an immediate matrix would be awesome, but I wouldn't want to compromise the bitrate.
I like the Tascam because of the XLR inputs as well as the line input. I guess Toslink isn't a big deal, I mean how many SBD's am I gonna run into with an optical out? Zilch is my guess.

[Dede2002]

I just ordered the new Tascam DR100 and should have it next week.  I think it is worth a look once it comes out.  It is small, around $400 and (hopefully) makes a good recording without any major issues.

That one should be a great recorder. As a R-09HR/1/8" plug  user, I don't know much about XLR inputs.
Sorry about my lack of knowledge, but I'm assuming that running the XLR inputs allows the taper to use better mics with better sound quality as opposed to run mic>bb>Line input. Am I correct?

Thanks in advance

[cybergaloot]

I just ordered the new Tascam DR100 and should have it next week.  I think it is worth a look once it comes out.  It is small, around $400 and (hopefully) makes a good recording without any major issues.

That one should be a great recorder. As a R-09HR/1/8" plug  user, I don't know much about XLR inputs.
Sorry about my lack of knowledge, but I'm assuming that running the XLR inputs allows the taper to use better mics with better sound quality as opposed to run mic>bb>Line input. Am I correct?

Thanks in advance

Yes, well ... at least more options.

I'd be curious as to how well its internal mics work. It says it has both omni and cardioid mics. The cards are obvious but the omnis are just two small holes in the case. Maybe that's ok, I dunno.

[Jacklaster]

I'm now heavily leaning toward the Zoom H4n.

Anything I should know before I take the plunge? I've read mixed reviews, but the 4-channel option is just too sweet to pass up!

[Dede2002]

I just ordered the new Tascam DR100 and should have it next week.  I think it is worth a look once it comes out.  It is small, around $400 and (hopefully) makes a good recording without any major issues.

That one should be a great recorder. As a R-09HR/1/8" plug  user, I don't know much about XLR inputs.
Sorry about my lack of knowledge, but I'm assuming that running the XLR inputs allows the taper to use better mics with better sound quality as opposed to run mic>bb>Line input. Am I correct?

Thanks in advance

Yes, well ... at least more options.

I'd be curious as to how well its internal mics work. It says it has both omni and cardioid mics. The cards are obvious but the omnis are just two small holes in the case. Maybe that's ok, I dunno.

Thanks for the info 

[flintstone]

"...I would like mini-TOSLINK...
...I need controls over both the left and right channels independently...
...and also a device that will record for at least 6 hours in 96/24."

Sony PCM-D50 has #1 and #3
Marantz PMD661 has #1 and #2, and adds XLR mic inputs with phantom power
Zoom H4n has XLR, but meets none of the stated needs
Tascam DR-100 has #2, and XLR inputs. Battery life should be known in a week or so.

Flintstone

[sunjan]

Typically- Rock concert SBD patches. 96/24, and editing on a mac.

I need controls over both the left and right channels independently and also a device that will record for at least 6 hours in 96/24.

And most importantly, it has to be sturdy and RELIABLE.

Sturdy and stealthy are two contrasting opposites. Since you're going for soundboard patches, I assume that you can bring in gear openly. Why go for handhelds, when there's more durable gear within your budget?!
Think FR2-LE...

You can hook up pretty much all recorders we use with an external battery pack, so powering shouldn't be a problem. Regarding your 6hr runtime spec, I guess this is mainly a storage requirement?
If you strike out 96kHz from your want list it would make more sense. Stuffing a flash memory with zeroes doesn't make a better recording, unless you have a very specific reason needing it. Search the forum here for more opinions on this...

[Jacklaster]

Thanks for all the input... As to the last reply from sunjan- I never mentioned that I needed it to be stealthy. I would however like it to be portable. As for the 24/96 comparing that to stuffing in a bunch of extra 0's... I don't believe that for one second. I want the extra resolution, and so should anyone else who knows the difference. Granted, some people can't tell the difference, but I like having my master file be as high of a resolution as possible for editing and archiving. So sue me.

I'm a video producer and the majority of my stuff ends up in SD, but I shoot and cut everything in HD. Why? Because it looks better. Audio recording is the same way. Record in the highest quality you can, then convert to whatever you prefer or require.

[Gutbucket]

Do you capture the ultraviolet light portion of the spectrum in your HD videos?

[rastasean]

I'm a video producer and the majority of my stuff ends up in SD, but I shoot and cut everything in HD. Why? Because it looks better. Audio recording is the same way. Record in the highest quality you can, then convert to whatever you prefer or require.

HD video doesn't improve the content of what you're shooting...

I guess this is why we have Blu Ray music CDs now...

[notlance]

As for the 24/96 comparing that to stuffing in a bunch of extra 0's... I don't believe that for one second. I want the extra resolution, and so should anyone else who knows the difference. Granted, some people can't tell the difference, but I like having my master file be as high of a resolution as possible for editing and archiving. So sue me.

I'm a video producer and the majority of my stuff ends up in SD, but I shoot and cut everything in HD. Why? Because it looks better. Audio recording is the same way. Record in the highest quality you can, then convert to whatever you prefer or require.

So maybe you should buy a Sound Devices 702 or 722 or 744T recorder.  Besides being very nice recorders, any of them can record 24/192, and the 744T can do it in four channels.  24/192 should be twice as good as 24/96, right?

[mark_ivan]

I have been 'user testing' a D50 for the last four weeks (Sony Store has a 30 day return policy), here are my observations

Pro
Sturdier build than many other handhelds
Ridiculously long battery life
Great display, fast VU meters with peak indicators
Intuitive and easy to access interface
Pre Record buffer(didn't use this though, and using it without a remote might result in an audible click when you actively start the recording)
A-B mark looping
Digital Pitch Control
Interesting limiter, but didn't spend too much time testing it
Easy file splitting
Clean high gain preamps
Sensitive and detailed internal mics with very good sound
Headphone amp has excellent sound
Digital input
Big but still pocket sized


Con
Non Robust 1/8" connectors (although the headphone and mic inputs are beefier than the rest)
No phantom power or XLR
Internal mics sound 'bright' (take phones on and off while monitoring recording, big difference in sound)
Internal mics VERY sensitive to wind or even recorder movement and handling noise
Memory stick (not a huge problem)
No mp3 recording for quick and dirty files without having to convert later
No separate gain controls for L/R

Took the D50 back to the Sony store today, felt queasy afterwards.

I had a FR2LE out over the same time, overall, it is much more primitive, and somewhat larger (no sticking this in your pocket). It doesn't come close to many of the 'pros' of the D50, but it sounded equal with much and slightly better with some of the material I recorded. The most a/b'ing I did was with recordings I made with a rented pair of Rode NT1A's in front of my relatively high end stereo system. Not the ultimate test I am sure, but to compare 'voices' of the two recorders with a consistently repeatable source, it seemed instructive. The D50 sounded great, but the FR2LE just sounded a bit more dynamic and open. I need to make the decision to keep the FR2LE, or keep lookng, over the next few days.

No experience with the R09HR or the Zoom, but wanted to share my thoughts on the D50.

[sunjan]

...unless you have a very specific reason needing it.

As for the 24/96 comparing that to stuffing in a bunch of extra 0's... I don't believe that for one second. I want the extra resolution, and so should anyone else who knows the difference. Granted, some people can't tell the difference, but I like having my master file be as high of a resolution as possible for editing and archiving. So sue me.

Record in the highest quality you can, then convert to whatever you prefer or require.

So you have a very specific reason. Fair enough, I'm not going to question that.

But it's just hard to take you seriously, when you're aiming to "record in the highest quality you can", and mention looking at Zoom H4 in your initial posting.
When shopping for gear, there are always tradeoffs. One recorder might have 96kHz, but no good internals (FR-2 LE). Another recorder has both, but is a bit less sturdy (DR-100). A third recorder has all of that, but no L/R adjustable gain (D50).

Personally, I can think of twenty features that are more important than 96kHz, to get a "high quality recording". If you ask most tapers here, 96kHz comes low on the priority list. To each and one his own...

[Brian Skalinder]

One recorder might have 96kHz, but no good internals (FR-2 LE).

The FR2LE's internals are no good?  That's news to me.

[JasonSobel]

One recorder might have 96kHz, but no good internals (FR-2 LE).

The FR2LE's internals are no good?  That's news to me.

I think sunjan was talking about internal mics attached to the deck.

Anyway, recording for 6 hours at 24/96 will require at least 12gb of storage. (stereo 24/96 is ~2gigs/hour).
With the Fostex FR-2LE, the deck stops when it gets to 4gb.  So that's 2 hours of continuous run-time at 24/96.  Of course, you can use a large flash-card and just hit record again to start a new file, but it's something you need to think about... you can't just get it going at 24/96 and then come back to the deck in 6 hours.

I think another deck you should consider is the Marantz PMD-661.  It's got a lot of different inputs (XLR line-in or XLR mic in w/ phantom, 1/8" line in, and S/PDIF with an RCA connector), and therefore provides a lot of flexibility.  It's a small deck (not as small as the handhelds, but not large by any means), and feels very sturdy and durable.  and if you use a 16gb SDHC card, it'll go for ~8 hours at 24/96, with autosplits either at a specified time, or when the file hits 4gb.

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for the clarifying perspective, Jason.  I didn't realize the FR2LE stops at 4GB and requires a manual start of a new file.  Is it seamless?

[JasonSobel]

Thanks for the clarifying perspective, Jason.  I didn't realize the FR2LE stops at 4GB and requires a manual start of a new file.  Is it seamless?

no, because the FR-2LE requires a manual re-start after the recorded file gets to 4gb, it is not a seamless transition from one file to the next.  Personally, I've only used the FR-2LE once, and for me, it was about a 15 minute gap of lost music between the files... But that's really a story for another thread.  As long as you know that the deck won't automatically start a new file when the 4gb size is reached, you can probably plan for it and stop and restart the deck at a convenient point in time (crowd noise between songs, for example).  But it's something you need to plan for.

And while I'm writing another reply, I'll mention the PMD-661 again.  I might be biased because I own one, but I honestly think that it is the deck with the best features...  it's just a very verstile deck that can be effective in many different situations.

[Brian Skalinder]

no, because the FR-2LE requires a manual re-start after the recorded file gets to 4gb, it is not a seamless transition from one file to the next.

What an odd implementation.  Probably not an issue for me, because I record at 24/44 or 24/48, and those rare occasions I run 24/96 don't go for more than 2 hours at a stretch.  Looks like I have more homework to do on both the FR2LE and PMD 661.  Thanks, Jason.

[rastasean]

no, because the FR-2LE requires a manual re-start after the recorded file gets to 4gb, it is not a seamless transition from one file to the next.

What an odd implementation.  Probably not an issue for me, because I record at 24/44 or 24/48, and those rare occasions I run 24/96 don't go for more than 2 hours at a stretch.  Looks like I have more homework to do on both the FR2LE and PMD 661.  Thanks, Jason.

That's not too bad for me but what annoys me is that fact you must format the card in order to change the resolution or else it just records at the same resolution until you format. I suppose you could have a couple different cards to solve that issue.

What is it like on the 661?

[sunjan]

One recorder might have 96kHz, but no good internals (FR-2 LE).

The FR2LE's internals are no good?  That's news to me.

I think sunjan was talking about internal mics attached to the deck.

Exactly, the OP was requesting decent internal mics on his shortlist. Anyway, it was just an example that there's a trade-off whichever recorder you choose. I wasn't endorsing one unit vs. bashing another, that would be beside the point.

[flintstone]

"...you must format the card in order to change the resolution...[FR-2LE]"

Very true, and a good example of different approaches to recording.  The FR-2LE's main audience is ENG.  Keeping settings like the quantization rate on the card allows the studio engineer to set up the recorder in the shop.  In the field, the reporter needs only to know how to turn the machine on, which end of the mic to plug in, and which button starts recording. 

The FR-2LE was introduced in Fall 2006.  It would benefit from a refresh of its design.  Companies like Marantz and Roland/Edirol seem to respond more quickly than Fostex to changing market conditions. 

The FR-2LE's preamp has very low self noise, but doesn't offer as much gain as some competitors do. Its headphone amp is pretty weak, too.  Still, it's is a raging good deal at $440 shipped from an affiliate of Buy.com
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=210239336

Flintstone

[flintstone]

If you're considering a recorder as large as the FR-2LE, the Marantz PMD661 should also be on your short list.

JasonSobel has prepared the definitive suite of battery tests for the Marantz PMD661.  While delivering phantom power to mics, the battery lasts from less than 3 hours using standard AAs to more than 8 hours using Lithium AAs.  Very useful info!

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,119213.msg1597270.html#msg1597270

[rastasean]

If you're considering a recorder as large as the FR-2LE, the Marantz PMD661 should also be on your short list.

I saw that and I am HIGHLY impressed. The display on that thing is VERY nice as well but its not as cheap as the 2LE. $600 for the PMD 661 at b&h. So based on everyone's input, why not spend the extra couple hundred and get the R44 for four channels and use two for SBD access? Battery life may be a factor for some, two extra channels may be useless to some, size/weight, you know--we all have our own reasons.

It would be easy to talk to from the PMD 661 to the R44 but from the R44 to a sound devices (two or four channel), I don't think so...just too much money for me.

One thing worth mentioning from my very cursory review of the 661 is the lack to adjust gain of each channel separately. This isn't a fall back since recorders like the 09HR don't allow that but I think a separate trim knob could have been added for each channel. Perhaps you can adjust it in the menu system but I don't know.

[JasonSobel]

but what annoys me is that fact you must format the card in order to change the resolution or else it just records at the same resolution until you format. I suppose you could have a couple different cards to solve that issue.

What is it like on the 661?

On the PMD-661, you can set-up and change three "presets" for input, recording quality, etc, etc...  You can turn the deck on and off as many times you like, and it'll keep the same settings (so that it's ready to go as soon as you turn the deck on).  But you can change which preset you use at any time, without having to re-format the card.

One thing worth mentioning from my very cursory review of the 661 is the lack to adjust gain of each channel separately. This isn't a fall back since recorders like the 09HR don't allow that but I think a separate trim knob could have been added for each channel. Perhaps you can adjust it in the menu system but I don't know.

this isn't true.  The gain knob isn't really a single knob.  There's an inner and outer portion of the gain knob, that turn together.  So if you want to keep the gain the same on both channels, it's easy to turn the inner and outer portions of the knob together.  But if you only want to change the gain on one channel, it's also easy to hold either the inner or outer portion still while you rotate the knob for the other channel.

[rastasean]

On the PMD-661, you can set-up and change three "presets" for input, recording quality, etc, etc...  You can turn the deck on and off as many times you like, and it'll keep the same settings (so that it's ready to go as soon as you turn the deck on).  But you can change which preset you use at any time, without having to re-format the card.

this isn't true.  The gain knob isn't really a single knob.  There's an inner and outer portion of the gain knob, that turn together.  So if you want to keep the gain the same on both channels, it's easy to turn the inner and outer portions of the knob together.  But if you only want to change the gain on one channel, it's also easy to hold either the inner or outer portion still while you rotate the knob for the other channel.

1. very nice.
2. I stand corrected and that is a smart layout on a small unit!