Author Topic: Transfering vinyl via the SONY PCM-M10 - PROBLEM SOLVED!!! (Read 9873 times)

Jonas Karlsson · « **on:** November 10, 2012, 08:04:32 PM »

][/color]Hi guys!

Just bought me a Pro-ject Essential turntable to transfer some old LP's digitally. Also to just enjoy the joy of analog!

When I listen to the LP's through my reciever and play it on my soundsystem it sounds great - although when I plug in my SONY PCM-M10 I hear a hum.

At first I thought it would be heard through the reciever as well - but using max volume there I heard nothing! The sound is noticable without putting a record on the tt.

Is there something I'm doing wrong? The tt is used via Speedbox and phonobox and, as I said, sounds great and with no hum via the reciever. Does the M10 need some sort of ground, like the tt uses via the phonobox?

Anyone else been experiencing the same? The sound is also recorded, so it's not just something I hear.

/Jonas, Gothenburg, Sweden

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2012, 08:22:49 PM »

I record vinyl via the same method. Tape out of my amp > M10. No issues here.

Maybe try a better cable. Also can you run directly out of the phono preamp? That would eliminate a bad output from your receiver.

ScoobieKW · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2012, 08:31:06 PM »

Line in

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2012, 04:13:51 AM »

I'm using Line in and taking the signal directly from the phonobox. Also I've tried mulitple cables, but perhaps it's this I need to replace??

the 2 RCA - 3,5mm stereoplug adapter.

/Jonas

H₂O · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2012, 07:24:33 AM »

Is the Sony on batteries or AC

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2012, 07:42:50 AM »

I've tried both, also just bought a rca-3,5mm cable (without the adapter shown above) - and still get the hum only when connecting the turntable to the PCM-M10 through the pro-ject phonobox.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2012, 11:48:07 AM »

I can't understand.... it must be something wrong with the signal from the pre-amplifier (Phonobox) to the M10 - as I said: it doesn't sound like that on the stereo - at all!

George2 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2012, 12:49:26 PM »

Quote from: jontebus on November 11, 2012, 04:13:51 AM

I'm using Line in and taking the signal directly from the phonobox. Also I've tried mulitple cables, but perhaps it's this I need to replace?? the 2 RCA - 3,5mm stereoplug adapter.

/Jonas

Can;t do this. You need a RIAA phono preamp.
Connect the RCA outputs of your receiver (if you have them)to the Sony recorder

yousef · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2012, 01:12:19 PM »

I think that's what the Phonobox is.

I would replace that horrible-looking adaptor with a decent quality rca>minijack lead as a first measure and see where that leaves you.

[EDIT]: apologies - just seen that you've already done that.

The questions that spring to my mind:

Are you using the same outputs from the Phonobox to your amplifier as you do to the M10?
Is the tt still grounded to something when the M10 is connected?
Have you tried taking the signal out of your amp rather than straight from the Phonobox?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2012, 02:50:04 PM »

Not sure if I can get a signal out from my reciever - I use this one:

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2012, 03:07:01 PM »

Quote from: George2 on November 11, 2012, 12:49:26 PM

Can;t do this. You need a RIAA phono preamp.
Connect the RCA outputs of your receiver (if you have them)to the Sony recorder

I use this RIAA phono preamp:

+

and plug + ground the tt into this and then put the signal out to my recorder, using either the "horrible" connector shown above, or a cable that has two RCA (left + right) in one end and then a 3,5mm stereoplug in the other. Do you mean that's not the way to go?

George2 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2012, 03:22:53 PM »

Didn't see about the phono box previously. Have you tried hooking up a separate ground wire between the turntable the the Phonobox?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2012, 03:27:46 PM »

Quote from: George2 on November 11, 2012, 03:22:53 PM

Didn't see about the phono box previously. Have you tried hooking up a separate ground wire between the turntable the the Phonobox?

ah, ok

You mean the ground wire attached to the RCA's out of the tt is not good? how would I hook that up and from where?

George2 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2012, 04:49:08 PM »

For a lot of us older folks... our turntables had RCA outs and an extra ground wire to connect to the chassis of the preamp.
Is that a ground lug on your phonobox? can't tell from the pic. Does it unscrew?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2012, 05:18:45 PM »

Quote from: George2 on November 11, 2012, 04:49:08 PM

For a lot of us older folks... our turntables had RCA outs and an extra ground wire to connect to the chassis of the preamp.
Is that a ground lug on your phonobox? can't tell from the pic. Does it unscrew?

Yep, on the left hand side you secure the ground cable that is connected to the RCA outs. Sounds a LOT worse when it's not connected.

The strange thing here though, is that I can't hear any noise at all when I listen through my reciever - but when I plug in my M10 I hear it all the time (and it's visible in the file I open on my computer too).

ilduclo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2012, 05:20:26 PM »

why not input from the headphone out to the m10, very simple?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2012, 05:30:55 PM »

Quote from: ilduclo on November 11, 2012, 05:20:26 PM

why not input from the headphone out to the m10, very simple?

Hahaha! You're brilliant!

Still wonder why I got this hum through the tt-amplifier though, but now it's quiet as a mouse

I suppose that won't give me any loss in soundquality? Better get me a superb quality cable to be sure.

THanks!

/Jonas

ScoobieKW · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2012, 05:56:10 PM »

Headphone out has an additional amplifier and volume stage, it'll be good but not as good as a line out.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #18 on:** November 11, 2012, 06:06:43 PM »

Hmm... ok, so really back to square one...

It does sound a bit thinner using the headphone out...

Any other ideas of how to get rid of the hum when connecting the M10 to the amplifiers RCA-out? Where exactly does this hum start? The turntable? The tt-amplifier? Think it'll be quite hard to return the damn thing, saying that it "might" be something wrong with it, same goes with the turntable. If I return it to the store where I bought it, if they find no fault, they will charge me $100 only to check it.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #19 on:** November 11, 2012, 08:47:36 PM »

yea the OLD turntable i had also had RCA outs as well

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2012, 12:22:57 AM »

Quote from: F.O.Bean on November 11, 2012, 08:47:36 PM

yea the OLD turntable i had also had RCA outs as well

?? Not following here ?? You mean the old turntable had built-in phono amplifier?

yousef · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2012, 06:02:06 AM »

I feel your pain - this is the sort of thing that drives me mad.

It doesn't look like your amp has a tape-out so you can't go down that route...

Have you tried unplugging the tt to make sure that the hum is not coming from the Phonobox itself?

And is the hum still present if you use the Sony's mic-in input?

Have you done a freq analysis to see what the problem frequencies are - maybe that might be illuminating.

As a workaround (if the Phonobox is the problem) - could you plug the tt directly into the M10 and then apply the RIAA curve via software?

Just thinking out loud - feel free to ignore

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2012, 09:54:41 AM »

Quote from: yousef on November 12, 2012, 06:02:06 AM

I feel your pain - this is the sort of thing that drives me mad.

It doesn't look like your amp has a tape-out so you can't go down that route...

Have you tried unplugging the tt to make sure that the hum is not coming from the Phonobox itself?

And is the hum still present if you use the Sony's mic-in input?

Have you done a freq analysis to see what the problem frequencies are - maybe that might be illuminating.

As a workaround (if the Phonobox is the problem) - could you plug the tt directly into the M10 and then apply the RIAA curve via software?

Just thinking out loud - feel free to ignore

Ignore? Hell no! This is exactly what's needed at the moment!

I've tried to unplugg the power from the TT and keep the M10 connected to the Phonobox, the hum is still there. It's as soon as I plug the TT's RCA-cables into the Phonobox that the humming starts. So does this mean that it's the phonobox that is the problem? Unplugging the RCA's from the TT into the phonobox also takes away the hum.

By using the MIC IN on the M10 only makes the humming worse.

Not quite sure what you mean by applying the RIIA curve via software?

/Jonas

H₂O · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2012, 11:03:44 AM »

You have the pre set to MM right?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2012, 11:09:45 AM »

Quote from: H₂O on November 12, 2012, 11:03:44 AM

You have the pre set to MM right?

Yes I have

yousef · « **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:01:10 PM »

Quote from: jontebus on November 12, 2012, 09:54:41 AM

I've tried to unplugg the power from the TT and keep the M10 connected to the Phonobox, the hum is still there. It's as soon as I plug the TT's RCA-cables into the Phonobox that the humming starts. So does this mean that it's the phonobox that is the problem? Unplugging the RCA's from the TT into the phonobox also takes away the hum.

Not quite sure what you mean by applying the RIIA curve via software?

/Jonas

So the hum is present only when the tt is connected, regardless of whether the tt is powered up or not? But only when the M10 is in the chain? My simple mind cannot account for that...

In terms of RIAA and software - I think there are plug-ins that do in software what the phono-stage does in real-life. If taking the Phonobox out of the equation removes the hum, I guess this could be a workaround. Not one I would be particularly happy with if I'd bought a decent tt and amp though.

I wonder if a dedicated vinyl forum might have some insight: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/index.php

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »

Quote from: yousef on November 12, 2012, 02:01:10 PM

So the hum is present only when the tt is connected, regardless of whether the tt is powered up or not? But only when the M10 is in the chain? My simple mind cannot account for that...

In terms of RIAA and software - I think there are plug-ins that do in software what the phono-stage does in real-life. If taking the Phonobox out of the equation removes the hum, I guess this could be a workaround. Not one I would be particularly happy with if I'd bought a decent tt and amp though.

I wonder if a dedicated vinyl forum might have some insight: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/index.php

The hum is present only when the RCA's from the turntable is connected to the phonobox, yes - but I can only hear it when I connect the M10. It cannot be heard over the speakers, at all!

I went to the store that sold the Phonobox and exchanged it for a new one, and it sounds exactly the same. Either the M10 can't handle the signal from the Phonobox, or the turntable is badly grounded...

/Jonas

yousef · « **Reply #27 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:23:03 PM »

Quote from: jontebus on November 12, 2012, 02:14:22 PM

...or the turntable is badly grounded...

I think this will turn out to be the nub of it. Flicking through some of the posts on the website linked above (before I got distracted by photos of high end and vintage tts...) I saw at least one recommendation for grounding the tt to the amp rather than the Phonobox. Might be worth a try.

FWIW I've got a Project Debut (either a II or III, can't remember now) with no speed box and have had no problems transferring vinyl to my M10 via my Sony amp. Might go back and listen more carefully now though...

George · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:32:23 PM »

I can test my old school fisher turntable>outboard phono box to my M10 and report back later this evening. LMK if that interests you.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #29 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »

Quote from: Georgios on November 12, 2012, 02:32:23 PM

I can test my old school fisher turntable>outboard phono box to my M10 and report back later this evening. LMK if that interests you.

Absolutely interests me

Thanks so much!

PROBLEM SOLVED !!!

It turns out all I had to do was to "ground" my M10 to the reciever. I used the mini-USB out from the M10 and plugged it into my reciever, where I can hook up a little "dong" that's make it possible to access my network (USB-connector).

Sorry about all the fuzz!

George · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2012, 06:19:05 PM »

Weird! I just tested mine, no hum at all. You shouldn't have to ground your M10 at all. My guess is the hum issue is coming from somewhere else and it's affecting your M10's input.

The only thing I can think of....is your phono preamp and turntable plugged into the same outlet? Try playing with the outlets and see if that will remove the hum.

jb63 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 15, 2012, 02:51:11 PM »

That's electronics for you.
I had similar problems in the DAT days. I used the RCA jacks from the turntable straight into the Line Stage OadeMod SBM-1, then the 7-pin into the DAT and the levels & sound were perfect, but I found that I could not run the SBM1 with the wal-wart or I would get a hum. I solved the problem with batteries, and that thing (SBM-1) would EAT batteries, but since I only needed 20 minutes or so a shot, I would use all the "half-used" ones from shows.

It just turned out to be the number of electronics in the chain.

Or ghosts.

Probably ghosts.