Topic: Nature/ambient/street noise - which device?

[m1key]

Hi there,

I know absolutely nothing about sound recording other than what I read in the intro on this website and the FAQ.

My main interest is photography, and I got this idea a while ago that while it is nice to present a photo, it would be, in some circumstances, provide a soundtrack to it, which would consist of the sound recorded at the scene, which could be

• street noise
• [nature sounds (running water, birds etc.)/li]
  
  • [busy human gatherings etc./li]
    
  but nothing like live gigs, interviews - that's not interesting to me.
  
  I have searched a bit around the forum and someone recommended a device like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tascam-DR-05-Solid-State-Recorder/dp/B004OA6JW0 when asked a similar but not identical question.
  Therefore I guess the device would have to be able to pick up all sorts of sounds in the area, without necessarily getting very close to the source (that's what I would call context sound). Is that even possible?
  I suppose I would need the fluffy windscreen thing as well.
  
  Thanks for any hints!

[earmonger]

It's a simple question with a complicated answer.

The basic problem is that the quieter your source--bird song, for instance--the more you will hear electronic noise from your recording gear. So you need to first establish a budget and then do research with an emphasis on low noise in mics and preamps (or a recorder's built-in preamp).

And of course, there are specialists:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Naturerecording/

It depends how fanatical you want to get about it, and you can go to very expensive lengths to eliminate a few decibels.

That said, I recorded a conversation outdoors with the built-in mics of my Sony PCM-M10 and the birds singing and wind in the trees came through very realistically. It can, if you want, be that simple.

One thing I strongly suggest for ambient recording is omnidirectional mics, like the ones built into the PCM-M10. If you're going to just use the built-ins in a recorder, many of those recorders use cardioid mics, which are directional and good for pointing at, say, an interview, but don't sound as realistic.  The Tascam also has omni mics.

You can generally get better quality and far more flexibility with outboard microphones, of which there are approximately a zillion choices and price ranges. If you do get outboard mics, you would want high-sensitivity mics--not the low sensitivity ones many of us here use because concerts are so dang loud.

Anyway, set a budget first, and people here (and at that Nature Recording group) can help you make choices.

[m1key]

Hi there, thanks a lot for your reply. I like the mutli-direction microphone idea. I believe it's much more likely I will be recording ambient sound than chasing a rare bird in a forest - that should help with making the decision.
Would that sort of microphone (like the one you recommended) do well in, say, a busy street in India, with lots of people, vehicles, etc.? Or sea waves and seagulls? I would like the sound to be natural, that's it.

As for the budget, since that helps, I'd like the total cost to be less than £400. Thanks again.

[rastasean]

If you intend to listen to the recording with headphones, check out a pair of small omnidirectional microphones and use them in binaural pattern. This just means placing mics on or near your ears so when you're listening to the audio with headphones, it sounds very realistic.

some threads pertaining to this mic pattern:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=94126.msg1253664
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=79660.msg1060280
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=144738.msg1874820
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=112685.msg1511424

From what I have read, the best microphones for this would likely be the DPA4061's 4060s but they are ~$400 for a single microphone. Maybe you could check out these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2

The benefit of this mic pattern is that you have very little gear to worry about mics --->recorder. You could add a preamp if you wanted but it most cases, your recorder would be suitable. As far as a recorder, the sony PCM-M10 is an easy win at $200-250.

Thanks gutbucket for the correct model!

[Gutbucket]

Yes- omni directional microphones built into a recorder (simplest).. or (better), small omnidirectional microphones worn on glasses in front of the ears (even placed inside the ears in some cases), will work nicely for both seagulls and Indian tuk-tuk wallas.

A recorder such as the M-10 with omnis built-in may be all you need to do what you want.

The Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2 mics are inexpensive and a good next step if you want to mount the mics on your head, after trying the recorder alone.  Those can be powered directly from the M-10 or most other small recorders.  The TFB-2s are designed to mount inside the folds of your outer ear, but you can tape them to the arms of eye-glasses (or to a tree, wall or whatever), which may be easier and less figity.  The sound quality of them is very good for what you are doing.  Mounting the mics on your head not only allows you to use better mics than what is typically built-in to most small recorders, but also gets them in a better position and also a better recording configuration because your head acts as a sound baffle between mics, which increases the sense of "you are there-ness" - an important technical measure of recording quality.  As a practical matter, mounting mics like that also allows you to put the recorder in a pocket and frees your hands to work the the camera.

The miniature DPA omnis are superior in all technical ways other than cost, but are far more expensive and cannot be reliably run directly without an additional external box to power them as they need more voltage than the Plug-In-Power (PIP) provided by small recorders.  The appropriate model would be the 4060 which is more sensitive and has lower self-noise than the 4061, and is thus better suited to your application than the less sensitive 4061 which is more suitable for deafeningly loud sources.  There are many other makes of miniature omni microphones (also called binaural, lavalier or lav mics) between those price ranges, but I'd start with the recorder alone and optionally the TFB-2s.

[earmonger]

Since your budget is in £ it seems you are in the UK.

The PCM-M10 is way more expensive on your side of the Atlantic. People have recommended the Roland R-05 as a similar recorder that's more affordable in Europe and there are some threads on it here.  Annoyingly, its specs don't say if the built-in mics are omnis or cardioids.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1077/specs/

If you know someone traveling to the US, have them get a PCM-M10 for you here. Besides its good internal mics, and general user-friendliness, it has incredible battery life on just two AAs.

[m1key]

Thanks a lot for your replies.

Excuse my ignorance first of all, but are we talking about microphones attached to my head, or am I taking technical terms too literally? Is this a microphone: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-TFB-2.jpg ?

I cannot make any assumptions about how people are going to listen to those recordings, whether it is going to be headphones, speakers, or what have you.

But I did see a chap in India recording the Dev Deepavali festival (I should have spoken with him, really) and while I cannot remember his equipment very specifically, he was using what seemed like a microphone with the fluffy windscreen on it. So this is something I was semi-expecting you to recommend; but if small omnidirectional microphones used in a binaural pattern are superior to this (which is hard to say considering I don't know what he was using), then why not.

However, what about the fluffy bit, i.e. how do such in-ear microphones handle windy situations?
Also, would buying the recorder first and then upgrading to using it with the microphones if needed make sense at all?
What would be considered an upgrade to the recorder + in-ear microphones set-up?
If I'm not making any assumptions about the way people will listen to it, is the recorder + in-ear mics setup still a good choice?

I am in the UK indeed. The PCM-M10 costs £170 on Amazon here.

Thanks for your help.

[rastasean]

Well you can affix the microphones to your glasses rim or put them in the outer portion of your ear, as gutbucket explained. Really the small mics can dangle in front of your ears and this will have the same effect as if they were in your ears. The reason I recommend this style is because you don't have extra equipment to carry around, just connect the mics to the recorder, put the mics in/near/on your ears and walk around. You could carry a mic around put some folks may be more likely to focus on the mic rather than their environment. Wind will effect any mic you choose, but the soundpros do some with small windscreens you can use.

Microphones come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, just like recorders. Since you're just starting out with this, I'd recommend a recorder first and then a pair of microphones as you improve.  Even before making a microphone purchase, maybe you can search the web for binaural recordings. Just to stress this more, you don't have to have the mics in your ears or even on you. The beauty of life is to try things out, so if you get the mics, try out different mic patterns.

An upgrade would be better mics (like the DPA 460s) along with a required pre-amp. As for which pre-amp for these particular mics, I'm not positive on that. So your recording chain would be:
mics > pre-amp > recorder. The Sony PCM-M10 wouldn't have to be replaced with this chain because the quality of the recording would be negligible.

[Gutbucket]

Excuse my ignorance first of all, but are we talking about microphones attached to my head, or am I taking technical terms too literally? Is this a microphone: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-TFB-2.jpg ?

No that's a small gold ear-ring, the microphone is the thing inside his ear with the black wire looping over the back. 

I cannot make any assumptions about how people are going to listen to those recordings, whether it is going to be headphones, speakers, or what have you.

Putting the microphones in your ears is best for earphone playback, expecially if the recording was made using your own ears, but it still works over speakers.  Attaching them to glasses works somewhat better for speakers and other headphone listeners with significantly different shaped ears.  Sunglasses are easy and work great.

But I did see a chap in India recording the Dev Deepavali festival (I should have spoken with him, really) and while I cannot remember his equipment very specifically, he was using what seemed like a microphone with the fluffy windscreen on it. So this is something I was semi-expecting you to recommend; but if small omnidirectional microphones used in a binaural pattern are superior to this (which is hard to say considering I don't know what he was using), then why not.

However, what about the fluffy bit, i.e. how do such in-ear microphones handle windy situations?

Small binaural mics are better at recording the ambience of the entire space around you.  They are less picky about which way you point them and I think are generally a better fit for what you want to do. In addition, omnidirectional microphones are far less sensitive to wind noise and handling noise (rubbing wires, movement of the microphones, etc) than directional microphones so they do not require as much windscreening.  Small foam screens about the size of a nickle or a dime (US currency scales).. umm, say a centimeter or two in diameter work fine for most wind, excluding recording from the back of a mooving motorcycle or in a typhoon.

Also, would buying the recorder first and then upgrading to using it with the microphones if needed make sense at all?

That's what I recommend.

If I'm not making any assumptions about the way people will listen to it, is the recorder + in-ear mics setup still a good choice?

Yes.

[F.O.Bean]

I would get a recorder with omni mics[Sony M10 or Tascam DR-5] and maybe a pair of Church Audio CA14 OMNI Mics and a battery box/Preamp, so you can get a better/stronger signal while recording quiet stuff!

[rastasean]

Excuse my ignorance first of all, but are we talking about microphones attached to my head, or am I taking technical terms too literally? Is this a microphone: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-TFB-2.jpg ?

No that's a small gold ear-ring, the microphone is the thing inside his ear with the black wire looping over the back. 

haha, yeah, that probably clears a lot of things up for m1key. I wonder why they couldn't photograph his right ear...maybe it was worse and he had this: http://blog.johngietl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/hearaid.jpg

[earmonger]

Let's make a photographer analogy. Built-in mics are like a point-and-shoot camera.  Pretty good, might be all you need (though you do have to think about where the mics will be positioned and how to hold the recorder while you're also holding the camera). External mics are extension lenses: higher quality but one more piece of gear.

But the advantage to external mics is that your hands would be free. That might not matter if you're doing the recording after you shoot the photos, but if you're trying for real simultaneity, clipping on the mics could be easier. On the third hand, a high-sensitivity mic will pick up the click of your shutter as well as that bird singing.

By the way, here's some enthusiasm for the TFB-2/

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=79660.0

I have to say, though, that true binaural recordings, with the mics actually inside your ear, draw very mixed reactions--love or hate, and some people find them very unnatural played back through speakers rather than headphones, as I think m1key will be doing.

From the specs, it seems that the TFB-2 are really just a different mount for the Sound Professionals BMC-2.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

 And if you get the BMC-2, with clips, you can clip them to shirt collar/glasses/hat/camera bag strap or anyplace else.  More flexible.

If you do get either one, m1key, get the warranty. My BMC-2 cables did wear out sometime around the two-year mark--at which point, under the warranty, they sent a brand new pair.

[Gutbucket]

Both of those mics are Panasonic WM caps I believe.

You probably know this, but it wasn't stated and may not fit your needs- there are some digital cameras which can be set to record a sound sample with each shot, no extra gear required.

[m1key]

Gold earring eh? I thought for a second it wasn't the right kind of forum!

Considering what earmonger has just said, is using a big hand-helf microphone an upgrade to using two binaural mics, or is that just a different approach?
Are there sample recordings of both techniques in similar conditions that I could listen to to get an idea?

Gutbucket, I am aware of that, but that is not exactly what I want, thanks anyway.

[Gutbucket]

To make somewhat of a simplified overstatement- a binaural setup (or rather, mics placed on either side of the head in front of the ears, usually refered to as HRTF technique around here, instead of true binaural with the mics actually inside the ears) will do a better job at recording the entire environment around you in a convincing way due to the spacing of the mics at ear-width and the baffle effect of your head between them, whereas a handheld single-point mic can be superior for focusing in on a particular subject within that environment.