Topic: I have V2 > R44; Would V3 add anything?

[stevetoney]

With all of the sub $1K V3's on the Yard Sale right now, I've been wondering if there would be any compelling reasons why I should switch up to a V3, given that I am right now running a V2 into an R-44. 

Two reasons I came up with:

- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

Any others?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure right now if these are compelling reasons to spend the extra $$ for a V3 given the functionality I already have with the V2 > R44 setup.

EDIT:  OOPS...I should have added that I'm not right now interested in adding a SECOND V2/V3 for recording to all 4 channels.  That would be an OBVIOUS benefit to buying a V3!

[JasonSobel]

- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

I think that's a big one.  I think the V3's A/D is a wonderful converter (especially at 24 bit), and definitely superior to the R-44's internal A/D.

another minor positive for the V3 relative to the V2 is the gain structure.  The trim knob on the V3 adds gain, while the trim knob on the V2 is an attenuator.  This has been discussed in many other threads here on ts.com if you want to search for more info about this.

[NOLAfishwater]

I love the metering on my ACM V3 and find that using its SPDIF connection makes it really easy. The only thing with using analog preamps with clip only indicators, is you never know exactly how much more headroom you have without clipping it. Personally I like to run as hot as possible, and the metering helps me to achieve that. Buy one and never look back

[thekittycatt]

With all of the sub $1K V3's on the Yard Sale right now, I've been wondering if there would be any compelling reasons why I should switch up to a V3, given that I am right now running a V2 into an R-44. 

Two reasons I came up with:

- V3 has better metering.
- V3 could input directly to the digital input on the left side of the R-44 (instead of the XLRs).

Any others?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure right now if these are compelling reasons to spend the extra $$ for a V3 given the functionality I already have with the V2 > R44 setup.

EDIT:  OOPS...I should have added that I'm not right now interested in adding a SECOND V2/V3 for recording to all 4 channels.  That would be an OBVIOUS benefit to buying a V3!

I have all 3 pieces of gear, but have not ran the V2 with the R-44 yet.  On Friday night I ran FOB at mule.  I ran the V3 digi in on 1&2 and analog in on 3&4, to see if I could hear the difference.  I will try and get a sample posted in a few days.

[OFOTD]

another minor positive for the V3 relative to the V2 is the gain structure.  The trim knob on the V3 adds gain, while the trim knob on the V2 is an attenuator.

I love the metering on my ACM V3 and find that using its SPDIF connection makes it really easy. The only thing with using analog preamps with clip only indicators, is you never know exactly how much more headroom you have without clipping it. Personally I like to run as hot as possible, and the metering helps me to achieve that. Buy one and never look back

Those two reasons alone are reason enough to switch from a V2 to a V3. 

As a former owner of a V2 and a current owner of a V3 I find it confusing as to why the V2 is so revered over the V3.  Maybe because it was first?   Maybe age has something to do with perception?  Price?   Even that is not so much an issue it seems anymore.    I mean I miss my old 316 but i'd never replace my V3 with it ya know but it'd be cool to have the 316 for nostalgia sake.

   

[TNJazz]

Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

V2 haters.   

[thekittycatt]

Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.

They like the V2 better then the V3.

[stevetoney]

Agreed.  I've never wanted a V2.  I don't see why anyone would prefer it over a V3.

Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

[JasonSobel]

I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

You are certainly not alone in your opinions of the V3 A/D, though I do think there is a fair amount of "crowd mentality" going on here (a few tapes express an idea and then it gets perpetuated as "conventional wisdom").  Regardless, it would be worthwhile to review this V3 A/D vs 722 A/D comparison, if you haven't already:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html
(though of course, the V3 A/D vs R-44 A/D mentioned earlier in this thread is probably of much more interest to you directly).

I mention the V3 A/D vs 722 A/D because I think it does a very good job of showing how close the two A/D's actually sound - and how good and smooth the V3 sounds.  And to be honest, I think the opinion of the V3's A/D being "thin" or "brittle" stems from 16 bit recordings made with the V3.  I don't really like Grace Design's ANSR dither scheme on the V3, and I find that I like the sound of the V3 much more at 24 bit.  or even the 16 bit file made from a 24 bit recording (and dithered with one of the many available dithers in computer software), rather than a 16 bit recording made directly from the V3 with the ANSR dither.

[Todd R]

And to be honest, I think the opinion of the V3's A/D being "thin" or "brittle" stems from 16 bit recordings made with the V3.  I don't really like Grace Design's ANSR dither scheme on the V3, and I find that I like the sound of the V3 much more at 24 bit.  or even the 16 bit file made from a 24 bit recording (and dithered with one of the many available dithers in computer software), rather than a 16 bit recording made directly from the V3 with the ANSR dither.

I've always wondered whether the belief that the V3 is thin is because it has very quick transient response time and people are comparing a much lower average RMS recording to a higher average RMS recording.  Think of it this way:  the music is moving along and is pretty consistent at about -10db's.  A quick sharp hit to the snare drum occurs during the performance, and the very fast response V3 captures that snare hit by jumping up to -2db before falling back to the -10db music.  Another slower response pre/AD combo only shows that snare hit going up to -5db before  moving back to the -10db music (since it's response is too slow and it can't truly recreate the dynamics of the music).  I think this is what happens with the V3 (and why people think it never seems to truly clip, because the clips are of very quick transients and aren't easily heard by ear).

If you go back and normalize these recordings, the -10db V3 recording is only boosted by 2db (since the snare hit was at -2db), so it is an average -8db recording.  The other recording gets boosted by 5db, so on average it is a -5db recording.  Then that recording sounds "normal", but the V3 recording sounds "thin" -- but in reality, the non-V3 recording is 3db hotter, and people perceive louder as better. 

I've always wondered if people would have the same opinion if the V3 recording were compressed a bit to get rid of those quick transients or at least if both recordings being compared were normalized to have matching average RMS loudness (instead of normalized to have the same max loudness).

Sorry, big aside, but since we started talking about it...

[OFOTD]

Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

If I never used the A/D section of my V3 (modded or not) and used it strictly as a preamp the trim knob and metering completely warrant the $300 upgrade difference.

Without doubt.   

[stevetoney]

As the OP, I have no problem with the direction of this thread...it's an interesting discussion really because I'll be totally honest that I wasn't completely reaching my 'V3 is brittle' conclusion based on anything but my own listening on LMA because I've very much convinced myself over the last two years that I am the only 'customer' that my ears are trying to satisfy.  

I think I have some agreement with Todd...that 'brittle' might not be the best adjective.  In my own listening samples, there's often a fatigueing issue with lots of the samples that I've listened to.  I like the overall detail ALOT, but I just can't listen very long to the un-EQed sample without feeling like my ears are starting to ring.  

A couple other experimental 'discoveries'.  It seems like, in playing around with downloaded V3 files, if I back off a little on mid-range levels, it seems to de-fatigue the samples for my ears.  I have no clue if this is universal for others, but it seems like that's been something that my ears are happy with.

Finally, I don't seem to experience that ringing fatigue nearly as much with the virgin V2 samples, and it's definitely not existing in the ACM samples that I listen to.

Really, I'm not suggesting any conclusions from any of the above input...I'm just saying that in doing my own unscientific research and using my basic analog feedback methods (headphones and my ears) these were some 'loose' observations, but honestly I hadn't reaching any specific conclusions because I also understand that my methods are totally subjective (like maybe what samples I've listened to).

[stevetoney]

Because if one assesses that, at $300 or so extra, the V3 doesn't give them anything extra because...say...they are happy with the A/D of a SD7XX, then they might not need the A/D section of the V3.  In that case, is it worth that extra money?  (Opinions are provided in this thread.)  I dare say that the A/D section of the V3 does add an element of brittleness to the sound, but maybe that's just my ears or the mixing on the many recordings that I've sampled.

I'm not V3 bashing, just countering the rhetorical question that was posed.

If I never used the A/D section of my V3 (modded or not) and used it strictly as a preamp the trim knob and metering completely warrant the $300 upgrade difference.

Without doubt.   

Coolio.  Thanks David!  Good feedback. 

[edtyre]

I have an R-44, V2 an ACM V3 and i just sold a stock V3.

At trim 0 on both the V2 and V3 analog out = same sound
So if you are going to run analog, the difference is just
the better metering and the different trim setup (like others have stated)

If you plan on running 24 bit digi out......get the ACM V3!!
I have 4023>ACM V3 and all i can say is WOW....what a difference.
To my ears, its just the sound i was looking for.

 

[Kyle]

I have a V2 and I love the sound - the trim attenuator, not so much. I have wanted a V3 for a while, and the gain staging is probably the biggest reason. I run  the AD2K+ with it so I don't really need a built in ADC, unless I want to run with a smaller footprint (crowded theater for example). So, I will pick one up eventually, but I will most surely keep the V2 (my theory is that when you have a solid analog device there is no real reason, other than financial, to dump it). 

As far as metering goes, the V3 is superior, but with the red light on the V2 indicating 10dB before clipping, you have a pretty decent idea of how much headroom you have left.

If you really like the ADC in the V3 then that is reason enough to pick one up. Same goes for the +10dB trim knob. If you can live without these features, stick with the V2. It is a fantastic analog device that will hold it own (easily) for years to come.

If you do get the V3, keep the V2 if you can afford it. With four channels to work with, it just makes sense.

[thekittycatt]

I have an R-44, V2 an ACM V3 and i just sold a stock V3.

At trim 0 on both the V2 and V3 analog out = same sound
So if you are going to run analog, the difference is just
the better metering and the different trim setup (like others have stated)

If you plan on running 24 bit digi out......get the ACM V3!!
I have 4023>ACM V3 and all i can say is WOW....what a difference.
To my ears, its just the sound i was looking for.

 

Trim at 0,  is that on the R-44?

[OFOTD]

If you plan on running 24 bit digi out......get the ACM V3!!
I have 4021>ACM V3 and all i can say is WOW....what a difference.
To my ears, its just the sound i was looking for.

I could of barely said it any better myself!     



My two cents on the V3 a/d is that it sounds better at 16bit than it does at 24bit. 

But that being said its still better sounding than all but like three other boxes (AD2k, ACM V3, Mytek).   Even if you prefer the a/d in the 7xx the V3 pre is functionally improved over the V2 with the gain control instead of attenuation and the metering.   You might throw in power connectors but that kind of a wash to me.  So what is $300 worth to ya?


Steve I think running the Neumann's with the V3 would really shine for you.  The V3 at 16bit and 24bit balances out alot of the mid section of the 140's which to me helps.   Brad Wolf has made some really nice 140 > V3 tapes of which a few I think on the LMA.    While I agree that the V3 isn't for every mic I really do think it is a very good pairing with the Neumanns.

[stevetoney]

Steve I think running the Neumann's with the V3 would really shine for you.  The V3 at 16bit and 24bit balances out alot of the mid section of the 140's which to me helps.   Brad Wolf has made some really nice 140 > V3 tapes of which a few I think on the LMA.    While I agree that the V3 isn't for every mic I really do think it is a very good pairing with the Neumanns.

I was looking through old threads and I was trying to understand why you and someone else didn't like the ACM V3 paired with the Neumann's.  You used terms that led me to believe that you felt it was almost loose on the extremes...both the low ends and high ends.  Seems a bit inconsistent with what I've heard from ACM samples with DPAs and Schoeps though.  Unfortunately, there's only one sample that I could find out there on LMA of the ACM V3 in combo with any Neumann mics, so couldn't really reach any conclusions on my own.  Have anything else to add?

[OFOTD]

I've got a good bunch of 140 > ACM V3 samples.

For me I just never pulled 140 > ACM V3 tapes like I had hoped.  The Panic one here is the exeception.   It smokes.   
http://digitalpanic.org/bittorrent/showthread.php?t=17668 

The ACM V3 has been a real test of wills with me as I made a decision to base my main rig off of it.  When I first got it I was the guinea pig for a while.  Originally I hoped it was meant for the 480's.  Ahh not so much.  The Neumann's were next.  Too inconsistent from show to show.  Although I did think the M/S tapes sounded pretty damn good when I had the ak20.    It wasn't until I ran the DPA's that I had found the right match.  To be fair though my ears are now tuned to this particular combo.   The Schoeps I can't speak towards.

I think if starting over and basing my rig off of the Neumann's then i'd use a stock V3 for sure.   Same goes for the AKG's or maybe even the Beyers.     

   

[Chris K]

Former V2 user and current V3 user here. Obviously the metering is better on the V3, but I think the gain adjustment, both minor and major,  is far superior on the V3 than the V2.

The trim on the V3 just works better. Also, on the V2 when you change from say 30db gain to 35db, you get a fairly audible "PFFFFFFTT" while the V3 is much more transparent.

[ghellquist]

I've always wondered whether the belief that the V3 is thin is because it has very quick transient response time and people are comparing a much lower average RMS recording to a higher average RMS recording.  Think of it this way:  the music is moving along and is pretty consistent at about -10db's.  A quick sharp hit to the snare drum occurs during the performance, and the very fast response V3 captures that snare hit by jumping up to -2db before falling back to the -10db music.  Another slower response pre/AD combo only shows that snare hit going up to -5db before  moving back to the -10db music (since it's response is too slow and it can't truly recreate the dynamics of the music).  I think this is what happens with the V3 (and why people think it never seems to truly clip, because the clips are of very quick transients and aren't easily heard by ear).

This is a quite interesting theory. It could be quite true, but you really have to modify the description a bit.

There is actually nothing like transient response time in an analog design as separate from frequency response. Remember that the sound changes from + to - several thousand times per second. Now a transient would be exactly the same (going from + to - several thousand times per second), only a bit larger swing.

So, just perhaps, the V3 captures higher frequencys than other designs which is what transient response is all about.

Gunnar

[DSatz]

I had a V2, bought a V3, sold the V2. Last night I used the V3 with my brand-new R-44. Had some odd problems and will talk about them in another message; am in too much of a hurry now, and need breakfast. Nonetheless I write.

What I miss about the V2 are its unbalanced outputs (useful for me because I sometimes have to run a cassette in parallel with the digital recording), plus general pride of ownership--somehow Grace's whole product pitch gets to me. It's definitely good stuff, but there's also the image which makes me want to own one. ("Precious ...") I would feel jilted by life if I could not.

I'm intrigued by Todd R's remarks about transient response, and would like to ask him whether the scenario he describes so clearly, with drum strikes and the peak-to-average-ratios of recordings, is one which he has actually observed, or whether it is conjectural.

The reason I'm asking is that (agreeing with ghellquist) a linear analog circuit can't behave as described. The whole idea of "slow" vs. "fast" transient response in linear circuits, as a characteristic that's independent of their frequency response, is a huge honking myth. If an audio circuit can't change its output voltage quickly enough to "track" its input, distortion products (at frequencies other than those of the input) inevitably occur. If on the other hand a circuit is "fast" enough to reproduce the highest audio frequencies at its maximum output level, then making it "faster" doesn't really change anything unless strong signals above the audio band are present at the inputs. In that case, the ability to handle those signals without slew rate limiting will keep the distortion down--but filtering everything above the audio range offers the same benefit.

--best regards

[Red Boink]

I like the outs on the v2 as well.  I'm using a mytek 192 on the xlr outs and sometimes a small recorder on the phonos out...  I've used a v3 with a sd702t, but like the mytek converters better.  So, like always, use your ears, and have fun reading the boards.

I don't have any problems with levels on the V2, and generally set them just below the peaking level (which still leaves plenty of headroom.)

[Nick's Picks]

IMO, they both sound awesome.
can't really go wrong with either.  I prefer the V3 for tons of reasons over the V2, but I wouldn't be very picky about it should my recorder not have a digital input.  If it did...V3 all the way.

[Red Boink]

My recorder has aes xlr in, but I prefer the mytek ad converter to the grace.... I also like being able to use the rca phono outs to an analog recorder.. it's all in what rings your bell.  I was going to buy a V3 until I used one for two weeks.  fine piece, no doubt, but I prefer the V2>mytek>aes recorder (usually an FR2)

I do a lot of professional work and sometimes use the analog out with one channel on a wireless hop from the camera to timecode that is given to the producer so they can see what they have and how it syncs with video.  Again, what your individual needs are only you can say.