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Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: cgrooves on August 03, 2006, 05:42:20 PM
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Wondering how the pre & a/d compare between a digi mod edirol UA-5 and a denecke AD-20 if running into a bit bucket @ 16/44.1
I am aware of all of the advantages of the ua-5 over the ad-20 (16 or 24 bit, matrix / multi-mic capability, phantom power, etc.)
I'm just wondering about your opinions on the sonic comparisons between the two units when running 16/44.1
(I know that Denecke brags about the 20 bit a/d being a perfect companion to a 16 bit recorder. I would probably run the ua-5 @ 16 bit since the recorder is just going to truncate the 24 bit signal anyway.)
Thanks in advance.
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Wondering how the pre & a/d compare between a digi mod edirol UA-5 and a denecke AD-20 if running into a bit bucket @ 16/44.1
I am aware of all of the advantages of the ua-5 over the ad-20 (16 or 24 bit, matrix / multi-mic capability, phantom power, etc.)
I'm just wondering about your opinions on the sonic comparisons between the two units when running 16/44.1
(I know that Denecke brags about the 20 bit a/d being a perfect companion to a 16 bit recorder. I would probably run the ua-5 @ 16 bit since the recorder is just going to truncate the 24 bit signal anyway.)
Thanks in advance.
OK, I'll offer my opinion: The (stock) UA5 is pretty good. The AD20 is not very good.
Why? Well, IMO the AD20 has low noise, but it just sounds "flat". It does not have the detail I had hoped. I bought one tried it for one show, and immediately sold it. I traced the circuit. It uses a discrete transistor front end, followed by an opamp. Normally this would be good, but the transistor circuit is very crude. It has a differential pair, but no additional features, like a constant current source, that would reduce distortion. The opamp stage is OK, as is the ADC. I was tempted to modify the transistor circuit, but I think my time is better spent on other projects. So, I believe the AD20 offers low noise (good for film people), but not good sound quality. I would rather live with (a bit more) noise of the UA5, but nicer sound.
Richard
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i would personally add a modsbm1 instead, they can be had for about 300 modded and sound way better than both IMO, especially if just doing 16-bit
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i have run a ad-20 and ua5
i liked both but the ua5 i like much more
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i have run a ad-20 and ua5
i liked both but the ua5 i like much more
agreed. The ad-20 was fine, but it always seemed "dark" to me. The highs were there, but there was just something about the sound, maybe "dull" would be a better word. It's tough to describe, but the UA-5 is more pleasing to my ear. And now that the UA-5 is becoming so much more affordable, it's definitely worth it.
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I agree with Richard on the AD-20. Since the stock UA-5 goes for $200 or less now, the AD-20 about the same or more and you need a PS-2 or over phantom power infront of the AD-20, it's a no-brainer to go for the UA-5.
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man....my shit sucks ;D
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man....my shit sucks ;D
No worries. Every step is an (expensive!) improvement :).
I'm just telling my experiences using various gear. The thing is my "ears" get more expensive over time. Just when I think something sounds good, I hear an improvement when I change. And the voices (???) keep telling me to mess with things...
Richard
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i have run a ad-20 and ua5
i liked both but the ua5 i like much more
agreed. The ad-20 was fine, but it always seemed "dark" to me. The highs were there, but there was just something about the sound, maybe "dull" would be a better word. It's tough to describe, but the UA-5 is more pleasing to my ear. And now that the UA-5 is becoming so much more affordable, it's definitely worth it.
I wonder if the sound issues have more to due with the truncation of the 20bit word to 16bit - no dither or noise shaping - :hmmm:
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man....my shit sucks ;D
No worries. Every step is an (expensive!) improvement :).
I'm just telling my experiences using various gear. The thing is my "ears" get more expensive over time. Just when I think something sounds good, I hear an improvement when I change. And the voices (???) keep telling me to mess with things...
Richard
qft...i really cant decide what to upgrade next.....first i think the pre-a/d, then i think mics, then i think the pre-a/d again, then i think about a pmd660, then i think about the mics again.....i think i have ocd ;D
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qft...i really cant decide what to upgrade next.....first i think the pre-a/d, then i think mics, then i think the pre-a/d again, then i think about a pmd660, then i think about the mics again.....i think i have ocd ;D
IMO, the C4's are capable mics, and upgrading your pre/AD around them and the JB3 is a very reasonable idea, but upgrading the mics by a few steps and still running them into the AD-20, well you may not get the most of more expensive mics from that rig. Going to a PMD-660, or a higher quality pre/AD first, you can see how you like the C4's paired with that, then choose to upgrade your mics next in the future.
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i have run a ad-20 and ua5
i liked both but the ua5 i like much more
agreed. The ad-20 was fine, but it always seemed "dark" to me. The highs were there, but there was just something about the sound, maybe "dull" would be a better word. It's tough to describe, but the UA-5 is more pleasing to my ear. And now that the UA-5 is becoming so much more affordable, it's definitely worth it.
I wonder if the sound issues have more to due with the truncation of the 20bit word to 16bit - no dither or noise shaping - :hmmm:
This is a good point actually. Has anyone run an AD-20 into a 24 bit recorder to see if there's an improvement in the sonic quality?
I don't think it's a bad box, but it's dependent on the mics you use too. Some mics will not flatter it. I've heard a couple of recordings that did though...
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i have run a ad-20 and ua5
i liked both but the ua5 i like much more
agreed. The ad-20 was fine, but it always seemed "dark" to me. The highs were there, but there was just something about the sound, maybe "dull" would be a better word. It's tough to describe, but the UA-5 is more pleasing to my ear. And now that the UA-5 is becoming so much more affordable, it's definitely worth it.
I wonder if the sound issues have more to due with the truncation of the 20bit word to 16bit - no dither or noise shaping - :hmmm:
This is a good point actually. Has anyone run an AD-20 into a 24 bit recorder to see if there's an improvement in the sonic quality?
I don't think it's a bad box, but it's dependent on the mics you use too. Some mics will not flatter it. I've heard a couple of recordings that did though...
Found this information, which is relevant to the subject at hand. It appears that the 20bit pairs up well with a 16bit recorder based on the following:
Although the AD-20 uses a true 20-bit A-to-D converter chip (AKM5351, a slight improvement from the AKM5350 found on the ADA1000 converter), its actual dynamic range is just around 98dB. This means that although there may be more signal in the noise, the S/N ratio is really only giving you about 16.5 bits of real information above the noise floor. Oddly enough this works to our advantage when used with 16-bit gear (like CDs and DAT decks) because there is already a natural 'dither' in the 16th bit as it is being recorded from the AD-20. There is no need to add additional dither noise to the signal because the signal is already hanging right off the edge of 16-bits.
If the AD-20 truly delivered 20-bits of real information (that would probably require a so-called 24-bit converter!) then a 20-bit to 16-bit truncation would result in the quantization noise that the human ear would find offensive. In this case, an A-to-D would require additional dither noise to be added just beyond the 16th bit to randomize the signal such that the 16th (truncated) bit was not perfectly quantized.
Summarizing, the AD-20 will sound great with your 16-bit DAT or MD recorder due to the natural dither in the A-to-D converter. And if you go through the effort of capturing 20 or 24-bits (e.g., with a Zefiro ZA2 in a digital audio workstation) then you'll still gain a few extra dB and perhaps a bit more signal below the noise floor.
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I ran the AD-20 for a while and thought it sounded fine to me. I agree with the "flat" sound, but that is what I liked about it. The A/D is pretty good in it, the preamp is not so good. The main issue with it is that it cannot handle very high SPL levels and clips like you wouldn't believe in those circumstances. I still have not heard too many UA-5 sources so I cannot really comment on that.
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man....my shit sucks ;D
No worries. Every step is an (expensive!) improvement :).
I'm just telling my experiences using various gear. The thing is my "ears" get more expensive over time. Just when I think something sounds good, I hear an improvement when I change. And the voices (???) keep telling me to mess with things...
Richard
qft...i really cant decide what to upgrade next.....first i think the pre-a/d, then i think mics, then i think the pre-a/d again, then i think about a pmd660, then i think about the mics again.....i think i have ocd ;D
I think you have 2 options regarding this:
DL XXX mic > PS2 > AD20 sources as well as C4 > XXX sources from Llama and compare. If you sell your AD20>PS2 and add some loot, you can have a UA5 or nicer Pre>AD. See how that sounds to you, there are lots of these sources around. The C4s are a great starter mic, worth keeping for a while until you upgrade your Pre>AD. But then again, you might decide to go with better mics into the PS2>AD20 depending on what you hear in your comps.
I would suggest upgrading your preamp, then your mics...
Terry
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I think you have 2 options regarding this:
DL XXX mic > PS2 > AD20 sources as well as C4 > XXX sources from Llama and compare. If you sell your AD20>PS2 and add some loot, you can have a UA5 or nicer Pre>AD. See how that sounds to you, there are lots of these sources around. The C4s are a great starter mic, worth keeping for a while until you upgrade your Pre>AD. But then again, you might decide to go with better mics into the PS2>AD20 depending on what you hear in your comps.
I would suggest upgrading your preamp, then your mics...
Terry
this is my current train of thought as well....the c4's seem to be able to hold their own, and since im not really hung up on 24 bit yet, i could easily work with my c4's and jb3 while replacing the ps-2/ad-20 with something more like a ua5, which is what i really wanted anyway but I got a very nice deal on the ps2/ad20 from a ts.com member and ended up with them....they have kept me happy for a while but i want something different to play with and maybe enhance my recordings at the same time and this thread may have pushed me over the edge :)
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this is an easy one...sell the ps2>ad20>jb3 and get an Oade ACM Marantz PMD660. your ears will thank you.
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I liked the sound from the C4's paired with the AD-20 when I got a patch from Haleyscomet at the GRAB show in the ATL. Now that I have an AD-20 and a digi mod UA-5 at my disposal I plan on doing a comparison at the next show I tape just to see how they pair up with my AT mics. I'll run set 1 with one pre/AD and set 2 with the other so that it will be an 'apples to apples' comparison. Now that I've gotten some more gear I'm already thinking about a mic upgrade. I'd like to get my hands on a SP LSD-2, but can't justify dropping that kind of cash right now. LSD-2>digi mod UA-5>h140 would be a nice sounding compact rig I bet. I know where some schoeps have been sitting in a closet for about 9 years, so that may be my best option financially speaking.
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I was able to run some tests this weekend with a local band. Friday night, set one I ran the AD-20 and set two I ran the digi mod UA-5. The levels were run a little hotter on the AD-20, but other than that it was an 'apples to apples' comparison. Mics were set up FOH in a very shity spot (i.e. stage right of the stage right stack) running DIN, but I was just trying to compare the pre / AD's. Result: I liked the sound of the AD-20 better because it sounded warmer. The UA-5 probably captured a better dynamic range, but sounded a bit thin to my ears. Saturday night, I ran a matrix with the UA-5 and placed the mics in a much better spot. Result: Probably the best sounding recording I have ever done. I had planned on getting rid of one of them, but I think I will hang on to both for now and compare them again in a different setting.
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I was able to run some tests this weekend with a local band. Friday night, set one I ran the AD-20 and set two I ran the digi mod UA-5. The levels were run a little hotter on the AD-20, but other than that it was an 'apples to apples' comparison. Mics were set up FOH in a very shity spot (i.e. stage right of the stage right stack) running DIN, but I was just trying to compare the pre / AD's. Result: I liked the sound of the AD-20 better because it sounded warmer. The UA-5 probably captured a better dynamic range, but sounded a bit thin to my ears. Saturday night, I ran a matrix with the UA-5 and placed the mics in a much better spot. Result: Probably the best sounding recording I have ever done. I had planned on getting rid of one of them, but I think I will hang on to both for now and compare them again in a different setting.
Thanks for the comments/tests...
If you get a chance, could you put up some samples?
Richard
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I was able to run some tests this weekend with a local band. Friday night, set one I ran the AD-20 and set two I ran the digi mod UA-5. The levels were run a little hotter on the AD-20, but other than that it was an 'apples to apples' comparison. Mics were set up FOH in a very shity spot (i.e. stage right of the stage right stack) running DIN, but I was just trying to compare the pre / AD's. Result: I liked the sound of the AD-20 better because it sounded warmer. The UA-5 probably captured a better dynamic range, but sounded a bit thin to my ears. Saturday night, I ran a matrix with the UA-5 and placed the mics in a much better spot. Result: Probably the best sounding recording I have ever done. I had planned on getting rid of one of them, but I think I will hang on to both for now and compare them again in a different setting.
who did you tape Shane? you going over to ATL wed. for Bela/Umphrey's/Adrian Belew?
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Dennis-
I taped a local act in H'ville just to run a comparison. They were kind of perplexed by me wanting to tape, but I brought them a copy of Friday's show the next night. Only hitting up weekend shows for a while, gotta miss Bela.
Poorly-
I don't upload shows because of the shitty nature of my PC at home. I would upload some samples from my connection at work though, if it's an easy process. PM me instr.
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Dennis-
I taped a local act in H'ville just to run a comparison. They were kind of perplexed by me wanting to tape, but I brought them a copy of Friday's show the next night. Only hitting up weekend shows for a while, gotta miss Bela.
Poorly-
I don't upload shows because of the shitty nature of my PC at home. I would upload some samples from my connection at work though, if it's an easy process. PM me instr.
Actually, don't worry about the samples. I'm waiting for someone to do a side-by-side comparision, that is, split the mics and do both at the same time. That will answer our questions.
Richard
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Actually, don't worry about the samples. I'm waiting for someone to do a side-by-side comparision, that is, split the mics and do both at the same time. That will answer our questions.
Richard
ok, i now have a stock ua5 on the way and then its going to bussman2 for the mod....im not sure if im gonna sell the ps2/ad20 or sell my firebox to help pay for the ua5 and mods but im gonna have to keep the ps2/ad20 at least until i get the ua5 back and test it out, so i will get a pair of splitters and run this test with spc4's....the question is should this test be done with the ua5 just as a dmod next to the stock ad20? will the bm2mod compromise the integrity of the test?
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....the question is should this test be done with the ua5 just as a dmod next to the stock ad20? will the bm2mod compromise the integrity of the test?
Yeah, I was actually talking about a digi mod UA-5 / AD-20 comparison. I'm pretty sure that the bm2mod UA-5 / AD-20 comparison would go in favor of the UA-5.
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this is an easy one...sell the ps2>ad20>jb3 and get an Oade ACM Marantz PMD660. your ears will thank you.
Agreed! It's 16 bit at its best.