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Author Topic: Best way to record stereo for speakers?  (Read 6154 times)

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Offline Vurki

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Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« on: June 05, 2010, 06:46:07 AM »
Hey

I have two cardioid microphones, and I'm up to make some field recordings. Those mics with their self-made windscreens take a lot of room, so their placement is not completely simple. Testing different kind of arrangements is quite slow, so I decided to ask here: what is the best way to arrange two cardioid microphones to get the clearest stereophonic sound when listening with speakers? I'm making a sound art album that contains a lot of field recordings. The idea is not make the most realistic sound but more like just tell clearly to the listener that now there's a train moving, now it stops etc. So I don't need any binaural miking and heaphone listening, just sound that clearly tells what is going on.

So I've tried couple of arrangements: with time-of-arrival difference and without. It seems like it's a lot clearer stereo sound with speakers if there's no difference in arrival times, but how much does this matter - if there's 20 cm distance between the mics, does that hinder? I tried with about 50cm and it was definitely too much. With XY arrangement without any differences in time-of-arrival it was a lot more clearer, but it's hard to always arrange these huge and heavy mic sets to XY so I'm wondering does a little arrival time difference really matter?

I will make more tests, but it's also useful to know some facts behind the practice and hear other tapers' opinions. Thank you!

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 09:29:21 AM »
Phase cancellation is why it matters.  XY works because the mics elements are close enough to eliminate phase cancellation.  MS works for the same reason.  Mixes to MONO very well.  The others work because they mimic what a human head hears.  Although they probably work better in headsets than on speakers.  Some others tend to mimic your speaker placement as the point of capture.  Each with pluses and each with minuses.  Obviously the further the mic elements are from each other, the more problematic mixing them will be (either in the media content, or in the reproduction of the media method).  Sounds great at your place, but ONLY at your place, and then you moved.  Also consider that 3 to 1 ratio thing to account for comb filtering and other odd effects when the time of arrival is not matched between mics.

Offline boojum

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 04:13:46 PM »
Many people find the ORTF card array as the best compromise for good sound.  No array is "the best" but this one works a lot fo the time and is very forgiving.  If you want to be a bit more exact you can check out Sterwo Zoom which is a paper on this board about various arrays, their distances and included angels and why.  ORTF is the best all-around solution.  17cm between diaphragms and an included angle of 110 degrees.


Cheers
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Offline Vurki

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2010, 06:55:15 PM »
Thanks for both of you! About that ORTF: the most practical setup for me is actually almost exactly that! I like to use only one stand where I put the mics with their pop-filter clasps and I was just worried if the time-of-arrival differences would be too big, but I measured the distance of the mics and it's 18-19 cm so it's almost that 17. I took some ambience recording with me walking and making noise in different places and it sounded as good as the XY, but I also was able to hear the phase difference with headphones so it's a great combination. Ty for tip, I think I will use it!

Offline boojum

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 08:49:19 PM »
It may sound trivial but the 17cm - 100 degree is arrived at by a lot of testing.  Check also the Stereo Zoom article by Williams on this board.  Buut, for a generally no-fail good sounding with accuracy in placement and time differences combined, ORTF is a standard. 

Keep us posted on your successes.


Cheers


BTW -  The Stereo Zoom article has a way to get the 110 degrees by folding paper.  Origami mic arrays!  It is how I get my angles in the field. 
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Offline Vurki

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2010, 10:07:59 AM »
I can't find that article. I tried with this site's search and google but nothing, if you'd bother to search it for me I would appreciate that :)

I made an outdoor recording with that setup and it sounds quite brilliant. I can upload it if you want!

Offline flipp

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 11:51:29 AM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=119057.0 then follow the links for WIlliams' Stereophonic Zoom

even though it's written in Polish most of the diagrams included are easy to understand,
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=57748.0 for the link to another good resource
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 12:02:04 PM by flipp »

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 12:27:27 PM »
Time of arrival is mostly trivial, but not inconsequential.  Sound travels fairly fast (1000+ feet a second).  And your mics are not likely more than 3' apart.  But then again my L/R channel difference is about 0.0006 seconds per hour on my Korg MR-1000 and that can be problematic after the first ten minutes.  Basically it depends, if your mics are relatively the same distance from the primary sound source, fewer problems, even spaced.  When the space gets large and the source off center, that can be problematic.  At least for more critical listening.

Offline boojum

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 04:39:09 PM »
I can't find that article. I tried with this site's search and google but nothing, if you'd bother to search it for me I would appreciate that :)

I made an outdoor recording with that setup and it sounds quite brilliant. I can upload it if you want!

Isn't a good recording a trip!  There is no hope for you now.  It is like starting with sex.  There is no chance of turning back.   ;D
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Offline Vurki

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 05:39:58 AM »
I'm actually not so much interested in that technological stuff, more just recording and making use of the recordings, and now when I have found a good way to record, I think I'll skip those long explanations (that PDF article) about stereo and leave them for more rational people :D

I have now done many recordings with this gear 110 degrees angle and 18cm distance, and it works for both speakers and headphones. I thought you need an artificial head to get realistic sound but damn, this setup already gives a very good idea of what's happening.

And to the latest reply - you are righ :D Though, I have enough to do with this field recording, I can again put off examining sex for a long time... :D

Anyway, thanks for all of you!

Offline boojum

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 11:29:56 PM »

I have now done many recordings with this gear 110 degrees angle and 18cm distance, and it works for both speakers and headphones. I thought you need an artificial head to get realistic sound but damn, this setup already gives a very good idea of what's happening.


17cm, not 18cm.  The distances are critical.  A fellow on this or another board was amazed at how his recording improved when he got the angle and distance exactly as it should be.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 04:49:29 PM by boojum »
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Offline notlance

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2010, 02:15:16 PM »
Perhaps the engineers at Holland Radio (Nederlandse Omroep Stichting or NOS) who space their mics 30 cm and 90 degrees, or German Radio (DIN) who use 20 cm and 90 degrees would disagree.  There is no magic about 17 cm and 110 degrees, that's just what a group of Frenchmen in the 1960 thought sounded good.  It is certainly not the case that 17 cm spacing always sounds great where moving the mics to 18 cm apart will sound bad in the same situation.  Good mic placement and stereo technique depend on the situation; there is no technique that is best in all cases.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2010, 07:20:05 PM »
I'm actually not so much interested in that technological stuff, more just recording and making use of the recordings, and now when I have found a good way to record, I think I'll skip those long explanations (that PDF article) about stereo and leave them for more rational people :D ...

Welcome Mr. Vurki!

I won't bore you with technicalities, but understanding one basic concept will help you in setting up any stereo microphone array.   

Over simplified, it is this: The closer the two mics are to each other, the wider the angle between them should be.  Those two things are interdependent.  If you change one, you usually need to change the other to compensate, keeping everything else equal.  That’s really one of the most important relationships to consider when changing mic configurations while trying to figure out what works for you on a trial and error basis.  The specific question then becomes, by how much?

A standard stereo configuration such as ORTF is just one specific set of spacing and angle combination that has been found to work well for typical recording situations using cardioid pattern microphones. 

It’s easy enough to just use standard configurations like ORTF without understanding why or how they work, but you can also use that basic relationship to figure out many appropriate combinations of mic spacing, mic angle, and mic pickup-pattern that also work and which might work much better. That’s what the Stereo Zoom business is all about. It explains how that basic relationship, along with some other variables encompass the whole alphabet of standard configurations (XY, ORTF, DIN-A, DIN-B, NOS, AB, etc.) as a continuum of possibilities between close together but angled wide (which is XY), through far apart but pointed the same direction (which is AB).

Does that make sense?

Obviously the further the mic elements are from each other, the more problematic mixing them will be (either in the media content, or in the reproduction of the media method).. Also consider that 3 to 1 ratio thing to account for comb filtering and other odd effects when the time of arrival is not matched between mics.

I don't mean to nit-pick and mean no personal offense, Shadow, but the above two statements are totally self contradictory and also not true in themselves. On top of that neither addresses stereo recording (where channels are kept separate), but instead concern electronically mixing multiple channels together.  As I understand it, Good Mr Vurki is planning on both recording and playing back in stereo over loudspeakers.  Sounds like this is for some type of public installation?

Although it is commonly misrepresented all over the web as applying to stereo recording with two spaced omnidirectional microphones, the 3:1 rule simply does not apply to simple two channel stereo recording at all.  In fact, it’s nearly impossible to attempt to apply it to that scenario!  (& that says something about how experienced many of the authors of seemingly authoritative information on the web really are, I don’t mean amateur forums like TS, but professional gear and information sites.  Sorry, but widespread nature of mis-applying the 3:1 rule thing is one of my pet peeves)

The 3:1 rule is a set-up guideline for multiple microphones that will be mixed to the same channel. Think a line of back-up singers on stage, or a horn section, each with their own mic in front of them. It’s use is contradictory to the previous statement above because it emphasizes getting as much space between mics as possible.  Specifically, it recommends that the distance between each microphone be at least 3 times or more the distance of the each microphone to the source it is supposed to pick up.

When mixing multiple microphones, there might be problems if all the mics are either not in the exact same place or not far enough apart from each other.  But it isn’t particularly obvious that could cause problems to someone who doesn’t know why it might, and on top of that it might not!  It’s the pretty close to not far enough apart region that can be potentially problematic, but that only applies when mixing the mic feeds to the same channel (technical point: before someone claims that mixing to stereo is different, I’ll point out that panning multiple mics across a stereo buss is mixing them, just with different ratios to each side). 

Again, none of this applies to two mic stereo recording and stereo playback. I just want to correct some misunderstandings stated in the post above.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2010, 07:25:11 PM »
Time of arrival is mostly trivial, but not inconsequential.  Sound travels fairly fast (1000+ feet a second).  And your mics are not likely more than 3' apart.  But then again my L/R channel difference is about 0.0006 seconds per hour on my Korg MR-1000 and that can be problematic after the first ten minutes.  Basically it depends, if your mics are relatively the same distance from the primary sound source, fewer problems, even spaced.  When the space gets large and the source off center, that can be problematic.  At least for more critical listening.

Huh? Sorry I don't mean to poke at you, but this makes no sense at all.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Best way to record stereo for speakers?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 07:32:22 PM »
The 3:1 rule is a set-up guideline for multiple microphones that will be mixed to the same channel.

It's not just THE SAME channel.  If your speakers are close together (left and right) and you far from the source (in the kitchen getting another beer).  TWO INDEPENDENT channels will be MIXED.  Whether or not you INTENDED them to be or not.  It matters, because while they sound fine on headphones, they might not on speakers, or broadcast over AM radio (MONO).

 

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