Topic: Upgrade advice

[youngsbest]

I have been running SP CMC 4s with a 3 wire battery box and the MM Sennheiser MKE2s via a bb into an Edirol RO9.  For a lot of shows I run mic in low sens, though if it's very loud will go line in.

I'm looking to upgrade.  I think that the mics are fine, and to improve on what I have will be a lot of money.  I'm thinking of a Sony M10, and a pre-amp.  Funds are limited, so what should I go for first?  Will I see an improvement with a pre into the RO9, or how would the M10 be without a pre?  Would the pre & M10 be the best combination?  I have never had any level issues without a pre before, so it's a case of how how significant an improvement a pre would be with the M10.  Also why is the M10 so expensive in the UK compared to the US (OK, you can't answer that one).

Any advice gratefully received.

[Belexes]

I'd get the M10 first, then consider a pre after that.

[sunjan]

With your current rigs, how much gain do you typically add?
Supposedly, M10 has cleaner gain than the R-09, so you could get the M10 first, and see whether you're satisfied with going mic-in and relying on the built-in gain. If not, shopping for a pre would be the second step.

Next factor to consider, how are your mics terminated? 2 x mini-XLR, 2 x TRS or exotic solutions like y-cable with 5-pin mini-XRL?
If each pair are wired differently, you need to decide which input jacks your pre should have, and possible rewire the mics to make them compatible.

I agree that the Sony pricing for Europe is annoying. Maybe it has to do with EU customs/taxes, the USD exchange rate also plays a part for sure. At the end of the day, Sony set this price because they think they can get away with it:
because Europeans are used to pay a premium for their brand,
because the depression hasn't hit us as hard as the US,
because the competition between retailers is less fierce and the market is more fragmented in the EU,
because online retailers, ebay and comparison shopping isn't as matured as it is in the US,
because EU retailers have a higher markup/gross margin,
I'm just guessing...

[Will_S]

if you are finding that mic in low sensitivity or even line in gives you sufficient gain, I'm not sure you'll really get a significant improvement using a preamp or M10.  What aspect of your current recordngs do you feel needs improvement?  unless you find them too noisy, I think saving up to replace the AT853s is the most sensible step.

[burris]

Mics are everything.  Getting a new deck or pre won't make much difference, audio quality-wise.  Any money you spend on anything the mics plug into would be better spent on mics.  Keep saving and get better mics later.

[youngsbest]

Thanks very much for the advice.  I'm not unhappy with the quality of the sound, but wondered if I would notice an improvement with a new recorder or preamp.  As almost all concerts in the UK have to be stealth, so I guess when you get to a certain level of equipment everything depends on the location.  I have got some great recordings and not so great recordings, so an upgrade could be hit or miss.  But you know how it is, you have a hobby and a bit of spare cash...

[acidjack]

I do think the M10 is a better-sounding deck than the R-09. And similarly, technically speaking, a little preamp like a CA9100 will provide cleaner gain.

BUT

if you are recording loud rock shows, I don't think it makes much difference.   You already have two of the better mic sets in that price range.  You could try a different omni mic like the Countryman B3s, which won't set you back a ton (I think $300) and are supposedly comparable to the DPA 406x series mics. 

Otherwise, I'd say you either are looking at getting larger mics that can be run stealth OR you're talking about the DPA 406x mics.  The DPAs are great mics, but they don't come cheap, and being omni, also aren't as versatile.  That is also of course true of the other HQ small mics, the Countrymans and the Nevatons. 

[sunjan]

I suppose you could upgrade the mics too.
Since you already run CMC4 (AT853 caps), other mics in the price range would be more of a lateral move, unless you're willing to spend more bucks.
Have you read this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139501.msg1805197#msg1805197

Perhaps it wouldn't be a huge difference getting a pair of CA-14, but they are going cheap. Maybe Chris can give you a package deal with a pre?
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0

Some early R-09 had hardware issues with the line-in jack. Some broke, other might break later on. That could be a justification to sell/retire it and upgrade the recorder first, if you need an argument. 

It all boils down to how much you'd like to spend, and if you like to collect more gear, or are willing to sell your current pieces to increase your budget for better stuff.

[SmokinJoe]

I have AT853's and an R09 with battery box and ST9100 preamp, and I've run that a lot.  It's good gear, and I think if you spend hundred$ on a new recorder or mics you might be disappointed with the tiny improvement you would get.  There may be some opportunity to "optimize" what you have.  Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

You haven't even told us what kind of music you record, and at what distances.  And you still haven't really told us what you don't like about the recordings.  You haven't mentioned what config you run your caps in.  Etc.

I doubt that the r09 is holding you back.

[youngsbest]

Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.

[Church-Audio]

Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.

You dont need a new recorder.. The one you have is fine. I sent you a pm.

Chris

[acidjack]

Based on the below it sounds like the R-09 is holding you back, since that thing has a noisy preamp.  In your case a Church pre would be worth it, I'd think, given the type of music you record.

FWIW I do not think your mic patterns (XY, DIN, etc) are likely your problem.  Your placement in the room might be.  Are you wearing the mics on your head, at least?  Especially if you aren't especially tall, clipping mics to your collar or shoulders is really unadvisable in terms of sound quality.

Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.

[SmokinJoe]

That's good info.

Based on what you said, I personally don't think the R09 is holding you back.  If you are getting a lot of hiss, then you could replace it with M10 and gain some benefit, but I think a preamp such as the ST9100 sold by Chris Church would get you more benefit.  I expect an R09 with an ST9100 in front of it will sound more detailed than an M10 alone, and I presume your budget allows one, or the other, but not both.  Since you have the 3 wire mics, you need a power supply (battery box or preamp) in the chain anyway, and that preamp will get you 20db of gain with basically no noise.  If you were starting out from scratch my advice would be to buy the M10, but since you have the R09, keep it because it's not the weakest link in the chain when you can run line-in.

The other thing is keep an eye out for the AT853 subcards.  They are hard to find, but to my ear they sound a lot better than the standard cards caps in every situation I've tried.  I have a pair and use them rarely on special occasions.  I once ran AT853 subcards > ST9100 > analog into an H120, and it sounded a lot better than the AKG481 > V3 > R4 tape I made side by side that night.

[acidjack]

^^^ This is right.  Sorry, I should have been more specific - the R-09 is holding you back only in the sense that you're relying on its preamp.   With an external preamp it is fine.  To some extent, the M10 preamp is also an improvement, but I would think an external pre + the R-09 is better/cheaper move.