Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: leehookem on July 17, 2015, 10:35:57 PM
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Here's Part 1 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170230.0)
Here's Part 2 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.0)
Here's Part 3 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172830.0)
Tom Duffy from TASCAM (http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=53688), "site rep"
And thanks to voltronic, for putting together a FAQ page with recommended settings (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0).
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/overview/
-Compact, professional-grade audio recorder designed to be used in combination with a DSLR camera
-Uses an SD/SDHC/SDXC card as recording medium (up to 128 GB)
-High-quality recording inputs through Tascam original High Definition Discrete Architecture (HDDA) microphone preamps
-NE5532 operational amplifiers for even higher audio performance (also used on DA-3000)
-In addition to ordinary stereo recording, simultaneous recording of up to four channels is possible
-Four channels can be mixed down to a stereo signal
-Recording levels can be adjusted independently for inputs 1–4
-Dual recording function allows two files to be recorded simultaneously at different levels
-Recording at 44.1/48/96 kHz, 16/24-bit, linear PCM (WAV format)
-Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) supported as WAV recording format
-Two built-in omnidirectional microphones
-Four XLR/TRS combo inputs can provide phantom power (+24V/+48V)
-+24 dBu maximum input level (20 dB headroom)
-Additional unbalanced input for channels 1 and 2 (stereo mini jack) supports mics that require plug-in power, allowing the input of video mics and other high-output mics
-Switchable low-cut filter conveniently reduces low-frequency noise (40 Hz, 80 Hz, 120 Hz)
-Switchable limiter to prevent clipping
-High-quality audio can be output to a DSLR camera for recording
-Camera input enables convenient monitoring of audio from a DSLR camera
-Selectable mid-side decoding for use with MS microphone setups
-Slate tone functions (automatic/manual) to simplify synchronization of video files when editing
-Pre-recording function allows the unit to record the two seconds of sound before recording is activated
-Auto recording function to start start and stop recording by input level
-A new file can be created during recording (manually or by file size)
-Self-timer function to start recording after a set period of time
-Jump-back function allows the last several seconds of the currently played file to be replayed again by simply pressing a button
-Selectable delay to eliminate time lags caused by differences in the distances of two input sources
-QUICK button allows easy access to various functions
-Mark function convenient for moving to specific locations
-Equalizers for playback, and level alignment function to enhance the perceived overall sound pressure
-File name format can be set to use a user-defined word or the date
-Resume function to memorize the playback position before the unit is turned off
-Line output and headphones output with individual level controls (3.5-mm jack)
-Dedicated remote control jack for use with RC-10 and RC-3F (sold separately)
-Hold switch to prevent accidental operation
-Low-noise buttons
-128 x 64 pixel LC display with backlight
-USB 2.0 port
-Stand adapter (¼ inch) on bottom side to attach the unit to a tripod
-DSLR bracket for easy camera attachment and removal
-Hot shoe mount (accessible when not using the DSLR bracket)
-Handles on the front left and right sides protect the screen and can be used to attach a shoulder belt
-Operates on four AA batteries, an AC adapter (sold separately: TASCAM PS-P515U), external battery pack (sold separately: TASCAM BP-6AA) or USB bus power
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_user.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_rear.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_left.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_right.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_front.jpg)
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Re: poly film cap mod, a "phantom blocking" cap is an audio path cap, not a filter cap. If phantom noise was an issue, those wouldn't do anything about that. They are added under the theory tested on pg. 13 of that Bateman article, which found they did reduce distortion a bit but not very much. They have been part of the "gospel" of audio mods for a long time, but not too many people have tested as rigorously as Bateman did. I know Williams has an Audio Precision (high resolution test gear), so he ought to be able to provide pre/post specs.
I posted on GS a while back asking for measurements and he didn't seem too interested. If I recall, he didn't measure his unit before it was modified but I could be wrong about that. Maybe I'll email him and ask again.
Thanks again for those articles. The Bateman one I think I actually understood most of, at least the principles of it. The other one went overt my head fairly quickly.
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following ;D
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Just marking thread
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Re: poly film cap mod, a "phantom blocking" cap is an audio path cap, not a filter cap. If phantom noise was an issue, those wouldn't do anything about that. They are added under the theory tested on pg. 13 of that Bateman article, which found they did reduce distortion a bit but not very much. They have been part of the "gospel" of audio mods for a long time, but not too many people have tested as rigorously as Bateman did. I know Williams has an Audio Precision (high resolution test gear), so he ought to be able to provide pre/post specs.
Speaking of the JW mod and capacitors in the signal path:
In 'Speaker Builder' 3/1996 there was an article 'Capacitors: Why they matter'.
Among other parameters the THD and DA of various kinds of (mostly) 2.2uF caps for use in speaker crossover networks were measured.
All MKP caps had <0.001% THD, the bipolar electrolytics 0.003–0.012% THD, an ordinary 'lytic (normally not used in the signal path) had 0.025%.
Same thing with dielectric absorption which, as stated in the article, has an important influence on the sound.
All MKP caps had a DA of ≤0.01%, the bipolar 'lytics a highish 0.63-3.3% which is clearly inferior.
A friend of mine, an electronics technician who used to service musical and audio equipment told me that the difference between an electroytic input cap with or without a HQ bypass cap is measurable.
Tony Gee wrote about the positive effects of bypass caps in speaker crossover networks in his capacitor test: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Of course, mic preamp input stages and crossover networks are different animals. But in both cases you want low distortion.
So bypassing the DR-70's input electrolytics with film capacitors makes sense to me.
In case I get the JW mod done I'll let you know about the results.
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I did not find a single measurement in the article you linked; unless I missed it that article was an entirely subjective analysis of listening tests conducted across a very long period of time.
Hi Jon,
no, there aren't any measurements in Tony Gee's capacitor test. It's entirely based on listening:
''The subjective results of this test are meant to give you a basic idea of the sonic differences between capacitors when used in loudspeaker filters.''
In a tiny device like the DR-70 there's certainly no room for capacious polys or even bigger paper-in-oil caps. We have to live with the electrolytics.
If bypass caps improve things a bit, I wouldn't grumble.
All the best, SC
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Re: poly film cap mod, a "phantom blocking" cap is an audio path cap, not a filter cap. If phantom noise was an issue, those wouldn't do anything about that. They are added under the theory tested on pg. 13 of that Bateman article, which found they did reduce distortion a bit but not very much. They have been part of the "gospel" of audio mods for a long time, but not too many people have tested as rigorously as Bateman did. I know Williams has an Audio Precision (high resolution test gear), so he ought to be able to provide pre/post specs.
Speaking of the JW mod and capacitors in the signal path:
In 'Speaker Builder' 3/1996 there was an article 'Capacitors: Why they matter'.
Among other parameters the THD and DA of various kinds of (mostly) 2.2uF caps for use in speaker crossover networks were measured.
All MKP caps had <0.001% THD, the bipolar electrolytics 0.003–0.012% THD, an ordinary 'lytic (normally not used in the signal path) had 0.025%.
Same thing with dielectric absorption which, as stated in the article, has an important influence on the sound.
All MKP caps had a DA of ≤0.01%, the bipolar 'lytics a highish 0.63-3.3% which is clearly inferior.
A friend of mine, an electronics technician who used to service musical and audio equipment told me that the difference between an electroytic input cap with or without a HQ bypass cap is measurable.
Tony Gee wrote about the positive effects of bypass caps in speaker crossover networks in his capacitor test: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Of course, mic preamp input stages and crossover networks are different animals. But in both cases you want low distortion.
So bypassing the DR-70's input electrolytics with film capacitors makes sense to me.
In case I get the JW mod done I'll let you know about the results.
Found an interesting comment about this on another audio forum (link at bottom):
"... The (Bateman) capacitor tests show a hierarchy of signal quality.
But the test uses the capacitor as part of a filter.
The actual distortion levels which in some of the tests is extremely low ONLY applies when these capacitors are used as filters, i.e. when there is a large signal voltage across the capacitor.
In coupling duty, where there is virtually no audio voltage across the capacitor, the distortion drops by an enormous amount.
That is why the test does not cover coupling duty, the levels of distortion contributed by the capacitors would in general (all the back to back electrolytics and better) require a different and more sensitive measurement method to show any added distortion.
As far as I know, no one has shown distortion, or similar, measurement results for capacitors used as signal coupling when there is virtually no signal voltage across the coupling capacitor.
Back to back polar electrolytics when correctly sized to pass all the audio signal are perfectly good for coupling duty."
For the DR-70, the latter option is probably out due to the space issue. Would 'audio-grade' non-polarized electrolytics fit? If not, the 'standard' small plastic bypass caps, while maybe only of token value, are possibly the best that can be done (unless of course there's any downside--for e.g., possible HF oscillations or artifacts, etc.)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/176509-replacement-ne5532-8.html
PS--Yes, believe it or not the thread linked above is titled 'Replacements for NE5534'(!) The LME49720 is even mentioned somewhere. Most, though by no means all, of the comments are by audiophiles, so best taken with a gain of salt. Countering comments by resident audio curmudgeons make it worth the reading, IMO :D
Dave
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I emailed back and forth a bit more with Jim, sharing the concerns raised by Jon and others here. I even linked him to this thread if he chose to respond directly, but he did not feel it was necessary.
While I do not speak for him, I will summarize / paraphrase a few things he said that are related to our discussion here:
- He did not measure his 70D before or after modification.
- Measuring noise / THD is almost impossible because the analog circuits are tied to the converters and DSP. The outputs also run through another set of opamps and a DAC. You're therefore measuring the entire thing as a system, and there is no reference for that.
- The 14dB reduction in the noise floor (as reported here) is erroneous.
- The results of the mod will be a smoother midrange and better high end detail.
- The added poly caps are there to allow high frequency details to pass through the existing phantom blocking caps. This is something Bateman does not address.
- He enjoys the sound of his modified unit as do others who have done it, and that's good enough for him. He has also made the full details of this mod available to anyone for free.
My takeaway:
- Clearly I did not fully understand all the details of this mod, and if I misrepresented something that drove some people to certain conclusions, then I apologize for that.
- Please stop asking for a set of measurements, unless you or someone you know know has the proper equipment and is willing to do it. We could still do the kind of "poor man's" testing discussed previously.
- The modded unit may not measure that differently anyway - it sounds like the change may be more audible than it is measurable.
- I feel like there's a lot of criticism (some constructive) of this mod here simply because all of the parts used were made public. This strikes me as a bit of no good deed going unpunished.
- While I would have liked full before / after measurements also, is there anyone else out there that actually does this? Many on this board have purchased mods from others builders who do not tell you much at all about what they are doing, and I find it interesting that they are not subject to the same scrutiny.
- I am done bugging Jim about all of this over email. If you want to debate further on the merits of his mod or any of the points posted above, I suggest you contact him directly as quite frankly the technical aspects are over my head and it's not my job to be his intermediary. In other words, don't shoot the messenger.
- Along the same lines, if you feel like I've wasted my money on this then you're entitled to that position. My modded unit shipped today and I'm looking forward to using it. Maybe I'll like what I hear; maybe I won't. Maybe I'll be so overcome by my own confirmation bias that I'll think it's magically become a Nagra VI. ;D If the results of the mod are that the recordings I make sound better than they did before, I'll consider my money well spent.
I plan to make an "after" piano recording this weekend of the same piece I played last week, and then I'll post both here blind. It will be a completely invalid comparison, but maybe it will be fun to listen to.
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A mere guess on my part, but probably because he simply doesn't care to participate in the discussion. He has no economic axe to grind here as he isn't selling his mod. He did the mod for himself, probably based on his experience with these kinds of devices. He has generously shared the details without charge. That may be the extent of his desired involvement.
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A mere guess on my part, but probably because he simply doesn't care to participate in the discussion. He has no economic axe to grind here as he isn't selling his mod. He did the mod for himself, probably based on his experience with these kinds of devices. He has generously shared the details without charge. That may be the extent of his desired involvement.
That's quite an excellent guess. He basically said all of those things almost exactly in one of our email exchanges.
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Let's just carry that a step further. If someone does the mod and doesn't like the results or doesn't think it accomplished anything, the last thing he wants to hear is somebody complaining, "but you said it would....." And he has no control over who actually does the mod and gets no money from the mod.
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- While I would have liked full before / after measurements also, is there anyone else out there that actually does this? Many on this board have purchased mods from others builders who do not tell you much at all about what they are doing, and I find it intereting that they are not subject to the same scrutiny.
That's not true at all. There are many threads, some quite contentious, about the value of other mods, and, particularly, why they don't provide any measurements.
You shouldn't take the debate personally. Healthy skepticism is, well, healthy...
[Edit for typos]
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- While I would have liked full before / after measurements also, is there anyone else out there that actually does this? Many on this board have purchased mods from others builders who do not tell you much at all about what they are doing, and I find it intereting that they are not subject to the same scrutiny.
That's not true at all. There are many threads, some quite contentious, about the value of other mods, and, particularly, why they don't provide any measurements.
You shouldn't take the debate personally. Healthy skepticism is, well, healthy...
[Edit for typos]
I haven't come across the threads you're talking about, but I would be interested to read them. I'm not taking any of this personally - it's not my mod after all. I don't even have my modded unit back yet to compare against.
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I know it's late in the game for this suggestion, but would it be out of line to request that discussion of mods to the DR70 be moved to another thread? Frankly this discussion only pertains to a small number of you that are either interested in the mod or have the mod.
For the 30 or 40 of us that don't have the mod or aren't interested, all this discussion is wasted space and its getting a little bit frustrating sorting through the mod discussion to find the new posts that deal with our unmodded units.
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I know it's late in the game for this suggestion, but would it be out of line to request that discussion of mods to the DR70 be moved to another thread? Frankly this discussion only pertains to a small number of you that are either interested in the mod or have the mod.
For the 30 or 40 of us that don't have the mod or aren't interested, all this discussion is wasted space and its getting a little bit frustrating sorting through the mod discussion to find the new posts that deal with our unmodded units.
That's probably a good idea. This has been sucking a lot of the space here lately.
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Well, if you 30 to 40 other guys would post something, problem solved. ;D.
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I don't mean to throw this off track, but I'm fascinated by the old ears vs. bench debate. To Jons point, I've generally preferred gear that is most likely technically inferior to gear I've ultimately not preferred, like a v2, ad2k, v3, in favor of psp2, adk, 148, mme, modsbm1, warm mod 661. And knowing that I was probably going against the conventional wisdom when running dpas by trying for a warm, fat, smooth sound. Not technical terms. But I do hear what I hear. As for modded units, I definitely could hear the difference between a modded sbm1 and stock. I'm as far from technically savvy as you can get......I'm a throw em up and point em guy. 8)
I'd suggest that all that ultimately matters is whether you like the mod and can hear a pleasing difference when playing back on whatever you own.
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Hang on, I've not had my two pennyworth yet! :)
The results of the mod will be a smoother midrange and better high end detail.
Well, I copied that before I saw that Jon already commented on it - I would translate that to mean a flatter midrange frequency response and some high frequency boost - in the case of the first, I doubt whether it's other than effectively flat already, and if you want high frequency boost, do that in post production if necessary and to your own taste.
If the results of the mod are that the recordings I make sound better than they did before, I'll consider my money well spent.
Your money is well spent if you believe that you've got a better device for it. Whether it is or isn't is immaterial. I very much hope you will enjoy it in that way.
Many on this board have purchased mods from others builders who do not tell you much at all about what they are doing, and I find it interesting that they are not subject to the same scrutiny.
I'm not about to bother to dig out examples but I've verged on making myself unpopular with some comments on what I see as the dubious merits - or to be more precise, the unproven merits - of mods before, I think on these boards, and Mr Oade and I once exchanged some sharp words, as I recall it. But at the end of the day, each to his own. Like I said, it's about enjoyment - and perhaps some of the enjoyment lies in the discussion?
And now, back to our scheduled programming...
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DR-70 wishlist to Tascam
The DR-70 is hard to beat when is comes to value for money, especially with the new firmware installed. But in my point of view there is still room for improvement (apart from the things mentioned in the DR-70 FAQ):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0
Issues:
- The headphone output voltage/power (20mW) is too low for some headphones which makes monitoring difficult. - I use a Sennheiser HD-25 for live monitoring and an AKG K702 for checking the recording later. With the Sennheiser the volume is okay but with the AKG it is certainly too low. Usually you leave 12-16dB of headroom when recording. So the unnormalised file is a lot quieter than the edited one. With the given voltage of 4.8-6V of the four batteries it would be no problem to provide a little more power at the phone output. Quite a few high quality headphones have a lowish sensitivity.
- Slate tone cannot be disabled. - The slate button has a delay to prevent accidental operation, but it would be even better if you could disable it in the menu.
- You have to slide and hold the switch for full 3.5 sec to power up the device. - Only a very minor flaw, but those 3.5 seconds do feel too long.
Firmware update requests:
- Increase headphone output power/voltage if possible.
- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
- Let the device power up when sliding/holding the switch for 2 sec.
What do you think?
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DR-70 wishlist to Tascam
The DR-70 is hard to beat when is comes to value for money, especially with the new firmware installed. But in my point of view there is still room for improvement (apart from the things mentioned in the DR-70 FAQ):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0
Issues:
- The headphone output voltage/power (20mW) is too low for some headphones which makes monitoring difficult. - I use a Sennheiser HD-25 for live monitoring and an AKG K702 for checking the recording later. With the Sennheiser the volume is okay but with the AKG it is certainly too low. Usually you leave 12-16dB of headroom when recording. So the unnormalised file is a lot quieter than the edited one. With the given voltage of 4.8-6V of the four batteries it would be no problem to provide a little more power at the phone output. Quite a few high quality headphones have a lowish sensitivity.
- Slate tone cannot be disabled. - The slate button has a delay to prevent accidental operation, but it would be even better if you could disable it in the menu.
- You have to slide and hold the switch for full 3.5 sec to power up the device. - Only a very minor flaw, but those 3.5 seconds do feel too long.
Firmware update requests:
- Increase headphone output power/voltage if possible.
- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
- Let the device power up when sliding/holding the switch for 2 sec.
What do you think?
Those changes sound reasonable.
IMO a more annoying/possibly serious one is the issue of the input level pots suddenly shutting off input at around the 8 o'clock(?) knob position. Can it be changed in firmware? Otherwise I'm making some rotation-limiting knob stops :D
Dave
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Well, if you 30 to 40 other guys would post something, problem solved. ;D.
The reason I mentioned it is that a year from now, some people might want to read the discussions about about the mod but they'll have to wade through X times 25 pages of DR70D posts to find the detailed discussion. Similarly, for the people that have a general question on the DR70D and someone says 'it's already been discussed in the DR70D thread' well if the thread is occupied by lots of discussion about mods, then that's all the more information someone has to sift through to find specifics about a general issue they might want answered.
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Firmware update requests:
- Increase headphone output power/voltage if possible.
- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
- Let the device power up when sliding/holding the switch for 2 sec.
What do you think?
The 3.5 sec power up is annoying but not a huge deal. 2 sec would be better.
How impossible would it be to turn this into a 6ch recorder utilizing the ext in? I know that's a pipe dream at this price point, and I don't even know if I could have much practical use for that. But, the question is, is it possible via firmware update?
Surely this has been discussed, but what about a digital mechanism to measure differences in the channels? This would be amazing with unbalanced mics. I'm imagining a way to check the file after the opener or between sets that tells the differences in dbs between the channels. I know, not likely, but just throwing around ideas here. Maybe it's more likely there could be some kind of designation on the display that I've "matched" the channels.
Been using mine in the field some recently at pretty loud shows, WSP and DMB. I've had success so far. Been using the mid gain level for my Naks and I prefer that to the low gain. I've found that even with mid I have to be careful with levels, typically having the "louder" mic around 12 o clock and the other about 2hrs lower or so. I've gotten pretty good at matching the levels but I've been normalizing in post because there's still a 1 or 2 db difference. It's annoying, but I can get the levels much closer than running the same mics into the DR-2d.
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DR-70 wishlist to Tascam
The DR-70 is hard to beat when is comes to value for money, especially with the new firmware installed. But in my point of view there is still room for improvement (apart from the things mentioned in the DR-70 FAQ):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0
Issues:
- The headphone output voltage/power (20mW) is too low for some headphones which makes monitoring difficult. - I use a Sennheiser HD-25 for live monitoring and an AKG K702 for checking the recording later. With the Sennheiser the volume is okay but with the AKG it is certainly too low. Usually you leave 12-16dB of headroom when recording. So the unnormalised file is a lot quieter than the edited one. With the given voltage of 4.8-6V of the four batteries it would be no problem to provide a little more power at the phone output. Quite a few high quality headphones have a lowish sensitivity.
- Slate tone cannot be disabled. - The slate button has a delay to prevent accidental operation, but it would be even better if you could disable it in the menu.
- You have to slide and hold the switch for full 3.5 sec to power up the device. - Only a very minor flaw, but those 3.5 seconds do feel too long.
Firmware update requests:
- Increase headphone output power/voltage if possible.
- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
- Let the device power up when sliding/holding the switch for 2 sec.
What do you think?
Those changes sound reasonable.
IMO a more annoying/possibly serious one is the issue of the input level pots suddenly shutting off input at around the 8 o'clock(?) knob position. Can it be changed in firmware? Otherwise I'm making some rotation-limiting knob stops :D
Dave
That one really caught me off guard when I first started using it also. I would have to think that's a limitation of the actual rotary switch rather than the software, because to have usable range down there that the software isn't registering just seems stupid. Either way, I think that qualifies as an issue for the FAQ, but not one that I imagine could be fixed.
Same thing goes for the headphone level - you're just going to have to use higher impedance / more sensitive headphones or get a small portable headphone amp to run off the line out. From what I can tell, the headphone out has nothing to do with the digital gain control for the line and mic inputs. What tells me this is that the headphone level is controlled by your typical analog headphone dial control.
There's already an item in the request lists for the slate tone, but not for it to be disabled - to allow it to be used when you're not recording. I don't see the point of disabling it. If you're worried you're going to bump it, that's what the HOLD switch is for.
Power up time could potentially be improved with a software update, I guess. This never bothered me, but I'll put it there if it bugs others.
I can't get anyone from Tascam to take a look at these things anyway... but the list of issues is still useful for new users.
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The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
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The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
It went on that same sale a few months back. I almost bought it then, but I don't like the fact that the top doesn't close like all their other bags of this style. I wish their Deca Doctor bags would go on a sale like this.
You should definitely post this on the 3rd Party Sales board though - someone here probably wants one of these, especially at that price!
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Cross-posted.
Yeah, the flap not completely covering the top is a bit of a concern for me as well. I decided to try one out since my current bag doesn't allow for side connections. If it doesn't work out for me, it'll get offered here or the yard.
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The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
Still haven't worked out a bag yet. Anyone running one of these with the 70D?
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The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
Still haven't worked out a bag yet. Anyone running one of these with the 70D?
I use an earlier version of this one: http://www.thinktankphoto.com/products/speed-changer-v2.aspx
Top shelf quality, just enough padding, and a nice fit for the DR-70 with enough room for spare batteries, etc. Top access only, so if you want to operate the unit while in the bag you'll need right-angle XLRs. New only $50+, or used on fleabay for $20-30.
Dave
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Firmware update requests:
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- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
YES! I would not like to break off the button, but if I get one recording ruined by a slate tone, and there's not a firmware fix, I can pretty much tell you what's gonna happen... :facepalm:
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The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
Still haven't worked out a bag yet. Anyone running one of these with the 70D?
I use an earlier version of this one: http://www.thinktankphoto.com/products/speed-changer-v2.aspx
Top shelf quality, just enough padding, and a nice fit for the DR-70 with enough room for spare batteries, etc. Top access only, so if you want to operate the unit while in the bag you'll need right-angle XLRs. New only $50+, or used on fleabay for $20-30.
Dave
I still love my little Amazon Basics bag. I can fit the 70D, M10, FP24, external battery, 4 shockmounts, 4 mics (though mine are really small) battery charger for 4 AAs, superclamp, posi-lok clutch, and miscellaneous accessories. When the shocks are removed for use, I have plenty of room to run the 70D with 4 mics plugged in, as long as I use the stubby cables. The only thing it doesn't hold are my mic cables, which I've since gotten a small accessory bag for. My interest in the Petrol bags was in the hope I could fit everything in one reasonably-sized bag, cables and all.
http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Large-Gadget-Orange-interior/dp/B00CF5OHZ2/ref=pd_cp_p_0/177-0194371-0303366 (http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Large-Gadget-Orange-interior/dp/B00CF5OHZ2/ref=pd_cp_p_0/177-0194371-0303366)
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...
Firmware update requests:
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- Allow slate tone to be disabled.
YES! I would not like to break off the button, but if I get one recording ruined by a slate tone, and there's not a firmware fix, I can pretty much tell you what's gonna happen... :facepalm:
I think you're far more likely to accidentally bump the REC button than the SLATE button, since REC sticks out a bit and SLATE is more flush with the front panel. If you're worried you're going to hit something... that's why these things have HOLD switches.
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I wonder if putting the SLATE function in "AUTO" mode might disable the button?
As long as you get all of your take - Im ok with the tone.
Might be a best "just in case" practice to set the slate tone level at its lowest, -36db
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I thought you had to press and hold the slate button to get a tone? I suppose you could glue it open.
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To Tascam/Tom: I don't suppose it'd be possible through firmware to give an option to change the Slate into a 'T' mark function (like on the Sony M10)?
Dave
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I thought you had to press and hold the slate button to get a tone? I suppose you could glue it open.
The settings for AUTO imply that in automatically inserts a slate tone at the beginning (or beginning and end) of each take.
I just tested this and it does seem as if the SLATE button is NOT functioning in AUTO mode.
BUT - there is a small pulse on channel 3 if you do press it...perhaps a bug?
EDIT: Rethinking this a bit - the small pulse I see in the levels is from the sound of me pushing the slate button with internals which I had active and leveled up.
With levels all the way down - you still get the auto slate tone,
but otherwise SLATE has no effect if pressed in AUTO mode.
So - by using the AUTO slate feature - you can disable the button. (at least in theory!)
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Yes, I use the PS617. I'll try to remember to take a picture. Only gripe is you can't securely close the top - it only has the clear flap attached by velcro. Not a deal breaker for me.
The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
Still haven't worked out a bag yet. Anyone running one of these with the 70D?
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Yes, I use the PS617. I'll try to remember to take a picture. Only gripe is you can't securely close the top - it only has the clear flap attached by velcro. Not a deal breaker for me.
The Petrol PS617 (one of the recommended bags on the FAQ page) is currently selling for $79 at B&H and qualifies for free shipping. It normally sells for about $270.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902128-REG/Petrol_ps617_Lightweight_Audio_Bag_Large.html
Still haven't worked out a bag yet. Anyone running one of these with the 70D?
Thanks, Craig. The flap wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me either.
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Great, so the solution to me not wanting to contend with accidental slate tones is to deliberately put slate tones on every single file I record? Kinda takes a little fun out of listening back to masters as I go to sleep...
Oh, yes, the miraculous HOLD feature, that locks out your input level controls, and if you accidentally move one of THEM, and come off hold to attempt to make an adjustment, Crazy Level Jumping takes place, I assume? (guess I should experiment with this!?)
I thought you had to press and hold the slate button to get a tone? I suppose you could glue it open.
The settings for AUTO imply that in automatically inserts a slate tone at the beginning (or beginning and end) of each take.
I just tested this and it does seem as if the SLATE button is NOT functioning in AUTO mode.
(snip)
With levels all the way down - you still get the auto slate tone,
but otherwise SLATE has no effect if pressed in AUTO mode.
So - by using the AUTO slate feature - you can disable the button. (at least in theory!)
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Great, so the solution to me not wanting to contend with accidental slate tones is to deliberately put slate tones on every single file I record? Kinda takes a little fun out of listening back to masters as I go to sleep...
Oh, yes, the miraculous HOLD feature, that locks out your input level controls, and if you accidentally move one of THEM, and come off hold to attempt to make an adjustment, Crazy Level Jumping takes place, I assume? (guess I should experiment with this!?)
I thought you had to press and hold the slate button to get a tone? I suppose you could glue it open.
The settings for AUTO imply that in automatically inserts a slate tone at the beginning (or beginning and end) of each take.
I just tested this and it does seem as if the SLATE button is NOT functioning in AUTO mode.
(snip)
With levels all the way down - you still get the auto slate tone,
but otherwise SLATE has no effect if pressed in AUTO mode.
So - by using the AUTO slate feature - you can disable the button. (at least in theory!)
I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. I have never once accidentally hit the slate button. You really have to press and hold it in for it to activate. Yes, you're right about the hold switch behavior with the gain pots (see the FAQ), and I don't agree with that design choice but I understand why they did it that way.
For me, I'm more worried about accidentally hitting the record button and interrupting my recording, which is why I engage hold as soon as I know my levels are good.
I don't think the auto tone solution is necessary here. Just don't hit the button! If you really are worried about hitting the slate button, set it to its lowest level as already suggested.
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I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.
(snip)
If you really are worried about hitting the slate button, set it to its lowest level as already suggested.
Absolutely, I am being melodramatic, but if I get ONE recording with a bleepin' BLEEP substituted for content (low level or high level, I don't care, if it's throwing away my bits!) I'm busting out the butterknife/ mini-pry-bar. :o
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I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.
(snip)
If you really are worried about hitting the slate button, set it to its lowest level as already suggested.
Absolutely, I am being melodramatic, but if I get ONE recording with a bleepin' BLEEP substituted for content (low level or high level, I don't care, if it's throwing away my bits!) I'm busting out the butterknife/ mini-pry-bar. :o
Depending on what you're recording, that 1kHz tone might just mix in nicely with the music. :P
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
Reference tone for level matching external cameras and recorders. Also marking takes if doing video work.
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
Reference tone for level matching external cameras and recorders. Also marking takes if doing video work.
how would one go about using it for level matching?
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
Reference tone for level matching external cameras and recorders. Also marking takes if doing video work.
how would one go about using it for level matching?
Check the FAQ.
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
As I recall, someone mentioned earlier in the thread(s), the camera out gain is set in the 70d menu instead of a physical gain control like on the 60d. Once you start recording, the camera gain can't be changed since there is no physical gain control for this on the 70d. The slate can be used to more carefully match the gain between the camera and the 70d. If you set your camera gain too high and then adjust the channel gains on the 70d, you can brickwall your camera audio. This is why you want to be careful about how you set the camera gain using the slate. Others can probably give a better explanation than mine.
This is partly why I use the 60d for video.
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Thanks for the explanations. Based on that, I'm wondering what percentage of the DR-70D market goes to us in the strictly audio taper market vs. folks who use the recorder incorporated with video (as it is seemingly intended).
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So excuse my ignorance but I see the slate button on my DR-70D and really have no clue what it's for if one DID want to use it. Anyone care to explain?
As I recall, someone mentioned earlier in the thread(s), the camera out gain is set in the 70d menu instead of a physical gain control like on the 60d. Once you start recording, the camera gain can't be changed since there is no physical gain control for this on the 70d. The slate can be used to more carefully match the gain between the camera and the 70d. If you set your camera gain too high and then adjust the channel gains on the 70d, you can brickwall your camera audio. This is why you want to be careful about how you set the camera gain using the slate. Others can probably give a better explanation than mine.
This is partly why I use the 60d for video.
Great explanation of why the SLATE is useful. There's absolutely no reason not to use it when sending a signal to any external device.
Yeah, the locked level adjustment is one of the biggest problems with the 70D when using it with an external device. The only levels that can be adjusted while recording are the 4 input gain levels; everything else is fixed. So use the slate at an appropriately high level beforehand so you're sure you're not going to blast the inputs of whatever you're connecting to once the show starts.
If you change the setting to CAM out, that lowers the level by 30dB. From the manual:
When set to CAMERA OUT
Nominal output level: -40 dBV
Maximum output level: -24 dBV
When set to LINE OUT
Nominal output level: -10 dBV
Maximum output level: +6 dBV
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I'd like to hear an Film/AVs guys explanation of the uses of slate tones or otherwise.
The biggest flaw in the DR-70D is the gain controls that don't pass any signal at their lowest setting.
This is a big defect IMO...hopefully the new MID gain setting will lessen this circumstance.
The gain should just stop being reduced when the knobs hit minimum. Isn't that the whole point of the 4 gain ranges!?
That feeling that the knob has stopped is a valuable physical index - we need that!
TASCAM please fix this!!!
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I still don't see how the slate is good for matching levels but I use the 60 which has much better control over everything as well as multi outs active at once.
I really don't see how the slate is even useful in lining up audio/video since you need your camera hooked up in order for it to "hear" the slate. So why not just use the feed to the camera and be done with it?
Only reason I can think of is because the tascam might have better sound over the camera but fcp has synch features built in and lines everything up for you anyway.
It is dumb to have the knob all the way down cut off the signal though
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As I recall, we both had to figure out the right gain settings on the 60d for our Canon camcorders in the 60d thread. It's that same thing except someone was smart enough to figure out how to use the slate as a reference tone on the 70d.
The slate gets you a fixed reference point on the 70d that you can match to your camera gain settings before you start recording for real so you don't have the camera running say 15db hot relative to the 70d. If you were low setting gain on the 70d XLRs and then corrected it with the camera gain get too high, you'd have a good chance of brickwalling the audio recording on your camera during the actual recording. Adding the slate tone to a recording you're going to use for real without matching gain on the camera wouldn't help you avoid running the risk of brickwalling or having levels set too low, either, on the camera.
In one sense, there are three variable gains: the XLR gain, the camera out gain, and the camera's own gain. By matching the camera out and camera's own gain, hopefully, you have reduced the variables that might mess you up to only the XLR gain when it comes to actual recording.
Setting aside the matter of gain matching for a second, if you're just going to use the audio recorded in the camera and be done, the slate tone is in the way if you actually use it as a slate during the actual recording in my experience because I have to go in and edit it out.
I sometimes run multiple cameras and there's no slate on the ones not connected to the 60d. An old fashioned clapper board would give a better reference on all of them simultaneously for sync purposes. I have yet to use the 70d for an actual video recording.
For the 70d not to pass any signal at the lowest setting is a huge defect, IMO too.
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Is "SLATE" really about levels?
The AUTO slate setting - makes maybe a 1 second pulse at the beginning (or beginning and end) of each take.
Not terribly useful for level calibration...
Something tells me we don't really know what the heck slate is... ;D
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In my case, that's absolutely true.
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I thought SLATE had to do with syncing audio and video together in post...
Even if you route your DR-70 Audio to your camera - isn't always better to replace it in post?
And since they are different recorders - not clock synced - the audio would drift...
I figured the tone was a way of tuning one source to the correct pitch and speed...somehow.
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Presumably, the audio recording quality inside the 70d is better than my camcorder, but since there is a bit of drift over an hour or more recording, I'd rather just live with the audio in my camcorder than sync in post in most cases.
The slate tone is there primarily to make a spike in the audio waveform on the tascam and on the camera so you can more easily align spikes for syncing the "better" Tascam audio with the camera video. Because the slate is silent to the audience, it's not like you run down front to the stage and slap a clapperboard, either.
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I thought SLATE had to do with syncing audio and video together in post...
Even if you route your DR-70 Audio to your camera - isn't always better to replace it in post?
And since they are different recorders - not clock synced - the audio would drift...
I figured the tone was a way of tuning one source to the correct pitch and speed...somehow.
Yes they're different clocks, but as long as you set both to the same sample rate (48kHz) you should be fine. I do this all the time and it's pretty easy to line up the camera audio with the high-quality recorded audio and delete the camera audio track. Drift hasn't been a problem for me, but I don't record anything longer than about 2 hours at a time. I don't use slate tones for this - I use percussive transients at various points throughout the concert.
I think the speed / pitch issue you're referring to is what you'd use with analog audio recording on tape and video on film. Today there's timecode with digital recording that does this better. You still have to make sure all of your audio is recorded at the sample rate, or you will get drift or potentially pitch changes if one track is stretched or shrunk to match the length of the other.
For audio only, slate tones are very useful to help set levels, as 2manyrocks laid out. Here's a great tutorial from DigiGal on setting the level between a MixPre-D and a PCM-M10:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165688.msg2069471#msg2069471 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165688.msg2069471#msg2069471)
There's a similar procedure on how to do this with the 70D in the FAQ thread.
The dead zone of the gain pots is weird, and I put it in the Issues / Requests section of the FAQ. We need to be prepared for the fact that this may not be a software issue where it's set to not pick up anything until 8:00. It could be that the switches themselves have this dead zone, although why you'd use parts like that is beyond me.
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Presumably, the audio recording quality inside the 70d is better than my camcorder, but since there is a bit of drift over an hour or more recording, I'd rather just live with the audio in my camcorder than sync in post in most cases.
If you are absolutely sure you have synced up the beginning of your recordings and you're getting drift in that amount of time, that's a strong indication you have a sample rate mismatch. You can't record your audio at 44.1 kHz and have it match up with the camera, which is going to be running at 48 kHz. You need to set your audio recording to 48 kHz or 96 kHz.
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Presumably, the audio recording quality inside the 70d is better than my camcorder, but since there is a bit of drift over an hour or more recording, I'd rather just live with the audio in my camcorder than sync in post in most cases.
The slate tone is there primarily to make a spike in the audio waveform on the tascam and on the camera so you can more easily align spikes for syncing the "better" Tascam audio with the camera video. Because the slate is silent to the audience, it's not like you run down front to the stage and slap a clapperboard, either.
That makes sense to me...the AUTO feature has a setting to make a SLATE tone at the beginning and end of each take...seems ideal for post-sync work.
But I do get the sense that guys are using the mixer feature live - and just being happy with that level of improvement...and not bothering with the post audio sync.
Depending on your camera and available settings - that's probably ok.
The level calibration might be more a sidecar - "can also be used for" feature...
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Presumably, the audio recording quality inside the 70d is better than my camcorder, but since there is a bit of drift over an hour or more recording, I'd rather just live with the audio in my camcorder than sync in post in most cases.
If you are absolutely sure you have synced up the beginning of your recordings and you're getting drift in that amount of time, that's a strong indication you have a sample rate mismatch. You can't record your audio at 44.1 kHz and have it match up with the camera, which is going to be running at 48 kHz. You need to set your audio recording to 48 kHz or 96 kHz.
I doubt that - sample rate drift between non clocked synced sources is a long existing problem when combining audio tracks in post. Even with two exact same devices set to the same rate - you will likely see some drift...that's the whole beauty of these new 4 channel recorders - its all the same clock...but the camera is a separate audio recorder/system.
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Presumably, the audio recording quality inside the 70d is better than my camcorder, but since there is a bit of drift over an hour or more recording, I'd rather just live with the audio in my camcorder than sync in post in most cases.
If you are absolutely sure you have synced up the beginning of your recordings and you're getting drift in that amount of time, that's a strong indication you have a sample rate mismatch. You can't record your audio at 44.1 kHz and have it match up with the camera, which is going to be running at 48 kHz. You need to set your audio recording to 48 kHz or 96 kHz.
I doubt that - sample rate drift between non clocked synced sources is a long existing problem when combining audio tracks in post. Even with two exact same devices set to the same rate - you will likely see some drift...that's the whole beauty of these new 4 channel recorders - its all the same clock...but the camera is a separate audio recorder/system.
I guess it all depends on how much "a bit of drift" is that 2manyrocks is experiencing. I haven't run into anything significant with recordings under 2 hours, except for the handful of times I accidentally had my audio set to 44.1, and then it gets really bad. You're right that timecode sync is the only real way to keep things exactly together.
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The difference between 44 and 48 would be readily apparent - and not a matter of drift. It would sound like chipmunks.
Even if you mastered audio at 44 - you could still upsample to 48 and have the same issue.
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Not quite chipmunks, the difference is only a little more than a half-step. Kind of like the two halves of "Strawberry Fields".
Right, and the couple times I did this by accident it was primarily a dialogue recording, not music, so I didn't recognize it right away. Here's the most famous recent sample rate mishap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4)
For those that don't know, the song is in C. The synth track is playing back a little above C#, just as Jon says.
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The gain should just stop being reduced when the knobs hit minimum. Isn't that the whole point of the 4 gain ranges!?
That feeling that the knob has stopped is a valuable physical index - we need that!
TASCAM please fix this!!!
Oh man, on the DR-60D we had someone say we were going to get sued because it worked that way. (full anti-clockwise = minimum gain, not off).
The thinking is that input might be from a wireless microphone receiver, and the person at the mic end might be off-camera or off-set. (bathroom break, private phone call),
and the DR-60D would still record some of that channel, creating a privacy problem because the recordist can't instantly turn off the input.
I believe the DR-70D works the same way as many high end field recorders in this area.
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Possible firmware update with the option to turn that function on or off?
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That's why there should never be synths in a rock band >:D
I think Rush, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Dream Theater, etc. would have some words with you...
I would say instead that if there are synths, you pony up the cash to pay an actual musician to play a real instrument live, rather than have a software sequencer playing it back from a computer where it may or may not be set to the correct sample rate!
What really gets me is how many people listen to that video and think it's that it's Eddie playing out of tune!
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The gain should just stop being reduced when the knobs hit minimum. Isn't that the whole point of the 4 gain ranges!?
That feeling that the knob has stopped is a valuable physical index - we need that!
TASCAM please fix this!!!
Oh man, on the DR-60D we had someone say we were going to get sued because it worked that way. (full anti-clockwise = minimum gain, not off).
The thinking is that input might be from a wireless microphone receiver, and the person at the mic end might be off-camera or off-set. (bathroom break, private phone call),
and the DR-60D would still record some of that channel, creating a privacy problem because the recordist can't instantly turn off the input.
I believe the DR-70D works the same way as many high end field recorders in this area.
I think your explanation makes sense. In practice though, we're playing a guessing game as to where that on/off point is, because it's farther away from the physical stop point than one would expect. Is this a limitation of the rotary encoder, or an issue with the DSP and software that reads the signals from that encoder?
For example: you're trying to reduce the level of a channel just a tiny bit, and the channel turns off instead. And where it does happen is hard to pin down exactly both visually and physically. It would be much better if full counter-clockwise = off, and then any minimum clockwise movement turns the channel on to its minimum gain. That would accomplish the same thing you're describing above, yet would be much less confusing when operating the unit.
EDIT: Perhaps a better option would be to have the controls work exactly as on the 60D (full counter-clockwise = minimum gain), but then have the four channel select buttons on the right side become latching mute controls while recording. Those buttons already have multiple functions depending on the function selected or screen the recorder is in.
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I think Rush, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Dream Theater, etc. would have some words with you...
And they'd mostly be wrong, except for the bits that are Hammonds instead of synths :P
What if you started by playing a grand piano while suspended high in the air and flipping end over end, and immediately afterward you play an analog synth?
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Tom, I edited my previous post with a better suggestion - just mentioning it here as we're now onto another page.
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Person at mic end of wireless transmitter has a mute switch.
The switch may not necessarily be accessible depending on costuming, etc. Also, you may not want the person wearing it to have control over that. I remember when I worked with student musical productions, our transmitter packs had an internal DIP switch that overrode the external power / mute switch. I started using it because kids play with things, and sometimes would accidentally switch off their pack.
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Person at mic end of wireless transmitter has a mute switch.
The switch may not necessarily be accessible depending on costuming, etc. Also, you may not want the person wearing it to have control over that. I remember when I worked with student musical productions, our transmitter packs had an internal DIP switch that overrode the external power / mute switch. I started using it because kids play with things, and sometimes would accidentally switch off their pack.
Mute disable is the first thing I do on a wireless pack after resetting it. People forget.
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Person at mic end of wireless transmitter has a mute switch.
In corporate gigs that I do, it's common to lock the wireless mic transmitters ON, so that they can't be turned off by accident. And in some situations, the speaker will not want the hassle of controlling their own mute function, they would rather leave tech to the tech.
Personally, I prefer to give control to the person wearing the pack, but some techs do not prefer that at all, and some contracts probably even prohibit it!
I like the idea of optionally latched mute buttons.
ALSO someone mentioned that the slate tone is only 1 second long - it lasts for as long as you hold down the button, so if you need more time to get levels set, just stay on it!
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Person at mic end of wireless transmitter has a mute switch.
The switch may not necessarily be accessible depending on costuming, etc. Also, you may not want the person wearing it to have control over that. I remember when I worked with student musical productions, our transmitter packs had an internal DIP switch that overrode the external power / mute switch. I started using it because kids play with things, and sometimes would accidentally switch off their pack.
ditto. I had a handheld wireless mic with a 3 position switch ON/MUTE/OFF. The MC of the event thought they were doing me a favor by turning the Mic Off after every announcement to save the battery, and wondering why I couldn't stop the PA from squealing every time they toggled it.
(Mic is Off)
start speaking - nothing through PA
I check level is up, do thumbs up
speaking again, nothing
MC remembers they toggled the switch, turns the mic over and flips it
<squeal>
Politicians and actors are usually told by the audio staff, don't touch the wireless kit, forget it's there.
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This is what NDAs are for. Deliver media to client at end of show. Done.
If too sensitive to trust crew? Use internal crew, or as our clients choose don't record.
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As requested, here's a new thread for discussing mods:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174046.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174046.0)
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As I recall, we both had to figure out the right gain settings on the 60d for our Canon camcorders in the 60d thread. It's that same thing except someone was smart enough to figure out how to use the slate as a reference tone on the 70d.
The slate gets you a fixed reference point on the 70d that you can match to your camera gain settings before you start recording for real so you don't have the camera running say 15db hot relative to the 70d. If you were low setting gain on the 70d XLRs and then corrected it with the camera gain get too high, you'd have a good chance of brickwalling the audio recording on your camera during the actual recording. Adding the slate tone to a recording you're going to use for real without matching gain on the camera wouldn't help you avoid running the risk of brickwalling or having levels set too low, either, on the camera.
In one sense, there are three variable gains: the XLR gain, the camera out gain, and the camera's own gain. By matching the camera out and camera's own gain, hopefully, you have reduced the variables that might mess you up to only the XLR gain when it comes to actual recording.
Setting aside the matter of gain matching for a second, if you're just going to use the audio recorded in the camera and be done, the slate tone is in the way if you actually use it as a slate during the actual recording in my experience because I have to go in and edit it out.
I sometimes run multiple cameras and there's no slate on the ones not connected to the 60d. An old fashioned clapper board would give a better reference on all of them simultaneously for sync purposes. I have yet to use the 70d for an actual video recording.
For the 70d not to pass any signal at the lowest setting is a huge defect, IMO too.
I did have issues with my cannon at first and almost sent the 60d back
Turns out though that the cannons input was to noisy compared to the 60d out
Once I dropped the cannons gain down and raised the 60d I have been great.
The slate might have helped me with that but I'm not sure because I wasn't peeking over -10 or so to begin with
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Cannons can indeed be quite noisy ;D
Dave
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FINALLY got around to running my 70D yesterday. Works great. Pretty easy to use. I think I like it better than the DR-680. I'll probably run the 70D a few more times and unless I discover something I don't like about it the 680 will go bye bye.
Can't beat it for $200 ($150 net after selling Sound Forge).
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I recently had a chance to run my DR-70d for the first time in the field as well. I had a few weird things happen. Nothing disastrous.
1st one was I had to set the time and date when I initially fired up the deck. I had done so the night before the show. The deck has been sitting in storage for at least a month since I last powered it on. I assume there is a battery that retains the time/date setting and after sitting for so long it lost it's charge? If so, no biggie, I'll know for next time to attach the deck to power a day or two prior to a show.
2nd one was I had 48v engaged after I had set up the stand and mics at the show and made sure I had levels from the SBD and the AUD mics. Powered down the deck as there was quite a bit of time before the band hit the stage. When I fired up the deck when the band was taking the stage I was *not* greeted with the "Engage" phantom prompt for channels 1&2 (my AUD mics, obviously). However, the little indicators to the left of the meters showed (falsely) that 48v was enabled. I had a quick moment of panic as I was not seeing levels from the mics and thought I had fried the mics. I went in to the menu and disengaged and re-engaged 48v and then all was fine. Has anyone else experienced this?
FWIW, I'm still on firmware v1.10.
And lastly I also saw the "Mix" indicator and didn't realize that referred to the headphone monitor and had a moment of panic thinking I was recording both stereo pairs to a single 2 track file. Fortunately I was able to d/l the user manual and figure out what was really going on.
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I recently had a chance to run my DR-70d for the first time in the field as well. I had a few weird things happen. Nothing disastrous.
1st one was I had to set the time and date when I initially fired up the deck. I had done so the night before the show. The deck has been sitting in storage for at least a month since I last powered it on. I assume there is a battery that retains the time/date setting and after sitting for so long it lost it's charge? If so, no biggie, I'll know for next time to attach the deck to power a day or two prior to a show.
2nd one was I had 48v engaged after I had set up the stand and mics at the show and made sure I had levels from the SBD and the AUD mics. Powered down the deck as there was quite a bit of time before the band hit the stage. When I fired up the deck when the band was taking the stage I was *not* greeted with the "Engage" phantom prompt for channels 1&2 (my AUD mics, obviously). However, the little indicators to the left of the meters showed (falsely) that 48v was enabled. I had a quick moment of panic as I was not seeing levels from the mics and thought I had fried the mics. I went in to the menu and disengaged and re-engaged 48v and then all was fine. Has anyone else experienced this?
FWIW, I'm still on firmware v1.10.
And lastly I also saw the "Mix" indicator and didn't realize that referred to the headphone monitor and had a moment of panic thinking I was recording both stereo pairs to a single 2 track file. Fortunately I was able to d/l the user manual and figure out what was really going on.
Go check out the 1.11 firmware, which corrects an issue where changed settings aren't retained after powering down.
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I recently had a chance to run my DR-70d for the first time in the field as well. I had a few weird things happen. Nothing disastrous.
1st one was I had to set the time and date when I initially fired up the deck. I had done so the night before the show. The deck has been sitting in storage for at least a month since I last powered it on. I assume there is a battery that retains the time/date setting and after sitting for so long it lost it's charge? If so, no biggie, I'll know for next time to attach the deck to power a day or two prior to a show.
2nd one was I had 48v engaged after I had set up the stand and mics at the show and made sure I had levels from the SBD and the AUD mics. Powered down the deck as there was quite a bit of time before the band hit the stage. When I fired up the deck when the band was taking the stage I was *not* greeted with the "Engage" phantom prompt for channels 1&2 (my AUD mics, obviously). However, the little indicators to the left of the meters showed (falsely) that 48v was enabled. I had a quick moment of panic as I was not seeing levels from the mics and thought I had fried the mics. I went in to the menu and disengaged and re-engaged 48v and then all was fine. Has anyone else experienced this?
FWIW, I'm still on firmware v1.10.
And lastly I also saw the "Mix" indicator and didn't realize that referred to the headphone monitor and had a moment of panic thinking I was recording both stereo pairs to a single 2 track file. Fortunately I was able to d/l the user manual and figure out what was really going on.
Sometimes mine would skip the 'Ch.1 phantom on--are you sure?' dialog box, or wouldn't display it until I pressed the data button, then would show it for Chs. 2, 3 and 4. Lately it turns on normally. In either case, I think the phantom power is turning on OK. Firmware is v.1.11, which may have improved the situation, not certain yet.
Dave
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Tomuo,
I noticed the backlight setting only works when running off of internal AA's. I'd like to see it implemented for when running off of bus power as well. I'd also like to see the backlight come back on for the specified amount of time set in the menu upon a key press while in hold mode (unless backlight is disabled outright) like the Sony M-10. Specifically I'd like it to be the data wheel depress as it is big and easy to find while fumbling in the dark and also so I don't accidentally hit a transport button and stop the recording if I forget to flip the hold button on.
I know wanting the backlight feature enabled while being bus powered seems counter-intuitive, but as I'm sure you know many of us are powering these in the field using external USB batteries for extended runtime.
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When you change the input levels using the four knobs, are the changing level values displayed numerically, or does it change the levels without telling you what the actual levels are?
I'm trying to figure out whether you can match its four channels very closely, beyond what you could do by eyeballing the meters.
On the DR-680, when you change the levels, it displays the values in 1 dB steps. It also allows ganging channels together, which I don't expect the DR-70D does.
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When you change the input levels using the four knobs, are the changing level values displayed numerically, or does it change the levels without telling you what the actual levels are?
I'm trying to figure out whether you can match its four channels very closely, beyond what you could do by eyeballing the meters.
On the DR-680, when you change the levels, it displays the values in 1 dB steps. It also allows ganging channels together, which I don't expect the DR-70D does.
This was discussed in Part 3 if the thread I believe, and a lot of this is also in the FAQ:
The levels of each channel are only displayed graphically. The highest peak value of all 4 channels is shown numerically in the lower right. There is no per-channel numeric readout; you have to eyeball it. There is no ability to gang channels together either.
All of these are things many of us here consider issues that can easily be fixed by a firmware update, which is why they are in the Update Requests section of the FAQ. Personally, I consider the metering / display the #1 issue that needs to be addressed.
Gain changes in 2dB steps, and is displayed as such on screen (but remember your only seeing the current highest peak value of all active channels). I found through testing that when moving a gain pot, the level is changing in 0.5dB increments. Tom, our Tascam rep here confirmed that the gain actually settles into 2dB steps once you stop moving the pot.
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Thanks!
Until we can reliably set identical levels on all four channels, we can't recommend it for use with TetraMic.
And the four-channel ganging function would be very helpful.
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Thanks!
Until we can reliably set identical levels on all four channels, we can't recommend it for use with TetraMic.
And the four-channel ganging function would be very helpful.
Ok...I know which mic not to buy...thanks!
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Thanks!
Until we can reliably set identical levels on all four channels, we can't recommend it for use with TetraMic.
And the four-channel ganging function would be very helpful.
FWIW, I find I can match channels on the 70D a bit easier than I can on a Zoom H6 for instance. I do wish it had ganged controls though, and there's no reason I can see that they can't make it happen.
As a mic manufacturer, maybe you'd get a bit more traction than the rest of us here if you contacted Tascam and explained why you'd like to see this feature implemented to allow products like yours to be more easily used with it.
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Stupid (likely) question coming out of frustration that I can't figure this out on my own. I've been perusing the previous 3 parts of this thread to no avail, so here goes...
I was hoping someone might run through the settings I should have on my DR-70D, recording with a pair of Line Audio CM-3's (p48) and usb power. My experience since purchasing the Tascam is that channels 1 and 2 appear to be recording with the levels 'locked' together, i.e. I am not able to control the levels independently.
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Stupid (likely) question coming out of frustration that I can't figure this out on my own. I've been perusing the previous 3 parts of this thread to no avail, so here goes...
I was hoping someone might run through the settings I should have on my DR-70D, recording with a pair of Line Audio CM-3's (p48) and usb power. My experience since purchasing the Tascam is that channels 1 and 2 appear to be recording with the levels 'locked' together, i.e. I am not able to control the levels independently.
Check the FAQ page (linked in my signature) which has the information you need.
The channels are definitely NOT linked, though I wish we were able to gang channels together - it's one of our top requests for a firmware update around here. Maybe what you're seeing is that you need to move each knob somewhat more than you'd think to get a level adjustment - that's because of the digital level moving in 2 dB steps, with no tactile feedback to the knob. But each channel definitely has independent level adjustment.
On the FAQ page there's a "recommended settings" section that goes through the most relevant things in the menus. The only things not there I'd maybe mention is that when you plug in your USB battery, be sure to select "USB Power" on the screen the pops up. You'll know you're running off of the battery by the little USB icon in the top part of the screen. Also, if you're just running the one pair of mics, make sure you disable recording for the other channels, or you'll be making an extra file of silence along with your music. Last thing is to be sure to update to the 1.11 firmware if you haven't already, otherwise you may lose some changed settings after powering down. Apologies if this is Captain Obvious material...
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Definitely not captain obvious material, but I'm still missing something, as I've resourced the FAQ, adjusted as per the recommended settings, as well as your other suggestions. I'm updated to v 1.10 and though I'll be updating before my next concert I don't believe that's the issue.
What if I said that I can turn the pot on ch.1 all the way down and the pot on on ch.2 all the way up with no difference?
I'm definitely missing something, and truth be told I'd prefer it to be a head slap issue.
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Definitely not captain obvious material, but I'm still missing something, as I've resourced the FAQ, adjusted as per the recommended settings, as well as your other suggestions. I'm updated to v 1.10 and though I'll be updating before my next concert I don't believe that's the issue.
What if I said that I can turn the pot on ch.1 all the way down and the pot on on ch.2 all the way up with no difference?
I'm definitely missing something, and truth be told I'd prefer it to be a head slap issue.
Something's amiss, it shouldn't do that. Try factory reset (isn't that in the menu?) Def. update to v1.11. You may have a temporary glitch...or a dud :(
Good luck.
Dave
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I am sorry if this has been covered, but I am at a show right now. Mics plugged into channels 1 &2 phantom on. I am getting levels on channels 3&4, not one and two. Any quick help is truly appreciated. Trying to record shugfie Otis shortly
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I am sorry if this has been covered, but I am at a show right now. Mics plugged into channels 1 &2 phantom on. I am getting levels on channels 3&4, not one and two. Any quick help is truly appreciated. Trying to record shugfie Otis shortly
You may have to enable recording for those channels...3/4 are the internals.
And check to see if your active input is on XLR/TRS...
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Thanks, for the quick response! That was it
I had the internals on. Got it working on 1&2. Man that would have sounded horrible. Deck stuffed in my bag with internal mics on
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So how exactly do you activate the internal mics? Not that I ever would. I'm guessing channels 3 and 4 set to on and no externals plugged in?
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So how exactly do you activate the internal mics? Not that I ever would. I'm guessing channels 3 and 4 set to on and no externals plugged in?
See Page 20 of the manual.
MENU > BASIC > select channel 3 or 4, then change INPUT 3/4 to MIC.
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So how exactly do you activate the internal mics? Not that I ever would. I'm guessing channels 3 and 4 set to on and no externals plugged in?
See Page 20 of the manual.
MENU > BASIC > select channel 3 or 4, then change INPUT 3/4 to MIC.
Thanks.
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The internal mics would be useful in a run and gun recording situation. We had some students competing in different classrooms which meant recording in one room and then immediately going to another room afterwards all day long. The rooms were too cramped for much gear, lousy acoustics, people everywhere, going and coming. You get the idea. But for purposes of just getting a recording, the internal mics could be useful. If you are doing camcorder video, I suspect the internal mics are way ahead of most camcorder mics, too. Or if you don't have any external omni mics, you could mix the internal Omni's with your external mic pair to suit to taste.
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Sorry for the double posting but I find no solution to my problem, my dr70d suddenly stopped saving my settings each time i turn off and error message "can't save data" appears. I upgraded the firmware to 1.11, changed battery and card, but every time I turn it off That message appears. Anybody have this problem? possible solutions? Ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Erick del Valle
+56 9 9319 3735
Santiago de Chile
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Sorry for the double posting but I find no solution to my problem, my dr70d suddenly stopped saving my settings each time i turn off and error message "can't save data" appears. I upgraded the firmware to 1.11, changed battery and card, but every time I turn it off That message appears. Anybody have this problem? possible solutions? Ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Erick del Valle
+56 9 9319 3735
Santiago de Chile
Did you format the memory card in the 70D? That was something a couple of us suggested in your other thread. Even with a brand new card, you should format it in the unit to make sure that it is the correct filesystem and also so the 70D generates a new Utility folder with its stored settings. If either one of those things is not correct, it could cause the problems you're describing.
Put one of your cards in, and try the "quick format" option. If that doesn't work, try the "erase format" which is more thorough.
If you have done the above and you're still having problems, I think it would be time to call Tascam support.
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Sorry for the double posting but I find no solution to my problem, my dr70d suddenly stopped saving my settings each time i turn off and error message "can't save data" appears. I upgraded the firmware to 1.11, changed battery and card, but every time I turn it off That message appears. Anybody have this problem? possible solutions? Ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Erick del Valle
+56 9 9319 3735
Santiago de Chile
Did you try a reset of the unit?
Home Screen > MENU > OTHERS > SYSTEM > INITIALIZE
Use this function to restore all settings to their factory defaults.
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I am having a problem with Lexar 64GB SDXC Memory Card Platinum II Class 10 UHS-I. The Tascam gave me a write error. I am wondering what is good card for this unit.
Thanks
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I am having a problem with Lexar 64GB SDXC Memory Card Platinum II Class 10 UHS-I. The Tascam gave me a write error. I am wondering what is good card for this unit.
Thanks
This may help, but I do not have the DR70D, I have the DR680MKII. I use the 64gb and 128gb Sony SDXC cards that have been on sale at B & H. They work flawlessly. Perhaps a few DR70D users also bought the Sony cards when they were on sale and can chime in on the DR70D specifically.
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I am having a problem with Lexar 64GB SDXC Memory Card Platinum II Class 10 UHS-I. The Tascam gave me a write error a few times at Peach Fest. I am wondering what is good card for this unit.
Thanks
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I am having a problem with Lexar 64GB SDXC Memory Card Platinum II Class 10 UHS-I. The Tascam gave me a write error a few times at Peach Fest. I am wondering what is good card for this unit.
Thanks
Why risk everything on large capacity cards? Maybe the size is the problem? (I don't know, I'm just sayin'). For what it's worth, I've had no issues w/ multiple 16GB SanDisk Ultras (30MB/s Class 10).
Dave
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The 70D should work fine with SDXC cards up to 128gigs. I have a 64gig for mine, but I haven't run it in the field or even tested it at home :facepalm: Sorry I'm zero help.
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The 70D should work fine with SDXC cards up to 128gigs. I have a 64gig for mine, but I haven't run it in the field or even tested it at home :facepalm: Sorry I'm zero help.
Yeah, 'should' be OK, but it's a lot of Gigs to lose in one fell swoop if the card goes t/u. Multiple smaller cards (supposedly) reduces the risk.
Dave
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The 70D should work fine with SDXC cards up to 128gigs. I have a 64gig for mine, but I haven't run it in the field or even tested it at home :facepalm: Sorry I'm zero help.
Just a recommendation to run a 5-10 minute test recording at home and listen back for any weird sound artifacts before heading to your first gig. My first outing unfortunately got marred with digi-noise and would've turned out great. It's happened to a few of us so far. My issue was with a Sandisk 32GB CL10. No issues at all with SD 8GB Class 4. It could've been an isolated incident with my card, but damn if this recorder doesn't give the impression that it's finicky with cards, regardless of the specs. No way I'd run a 128GB in mine comfortably at this time.
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This may seem obvious, but reformat the card every once in a while - and make sure you're formatting in the recorder.
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Card was formatted. the card had a write speed of 30 meg/sec that was probably the issue. I am getting two new cards from bh today.
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This may seem obvious, but reformat the card every once in a while - and make sure you're formatting in the recorder.
For sure - this my SOP as well. Card Full...Transfer files > Reformat in the DR-70D. Its fast.
I resist performing any file operations other than transfer/copy to HD. (like Deleting or Formatting via Windows)
One thing I noticed - I used Windows "Safely Remove Media" function on my card on one of my first efforts. (bit of a newbie to SD media)
That made the card unreadable in the DR-70D. I think I remounted it and then just pulled it from the reader - and it worked.
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Picked up the RAVpower 10400 mAh battery to run my 70d. Does anyone know how long this battery can power the 70d for from a full charge? May be hitting a festival in NH tomorrow and was curious to know. Thanks!
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Picked up the RAVpower 10400 mAh battery to run my 70d. Does anyone know how long this battery can power the 70d for from a full charge? May be hitting a festival in NH tomorrow and was curious to know. Thanks!
If you don't get at least 8 hours recording per charge, send it back! ;D Sorry, I don't have the Ravpower, but...
After a lot of trial and error I've found some 5V power banks on fleabay that are perfect for the DR-70. For 13 bucks apiece, I get 8 hours+ recording per charge, they weigh 7.4 oz and are the size of a checkbook (only 10mm thick--double-sided taped right under the machine, you hardly know it's there). Rated at 20,000mAh/3.6V (most makes shy from quoting the actual voltage). I bought three, though I really only need the one. They're proved reliable and the best value yet. (I bought the latest Anker 12V unit just for my DR-680, but IMO, for 5V operation, there are so many to choose from that it's not necessary to limit yourself to the high-priced 'recommended' brands, if you're prepared to do your own experimentation. If anyone's interested, I'll post the fleabay link and some pics later on...
Dave
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Pls post the link and the pics
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Pls post the link and the pics
Here you go: You can't beat these for price, function, and the size seems made to order for the DR-70--it's exactly the same width! Various color-anodized aluminum case (I picked Black, of course), compact and feels solid. Ships from LA. I've no connection to the seller other than the 3 purchases I've made so far. Shipping has been super fast (well, I'm in CA):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20000mAh-UltraThin-Dual-USB-Portable-Power-Bank-External-Battery-Backup-Charger-/331541674213?var=&hash=item4d316c78e5
My DR-70 draws around 500mA (0.5A) from one of these, all channels on/4x P48 (even running a CAD179), and went 8 hours with still one LED on (showing 25% remaining charge). I will be doing further checks to verify what I've found, but I see nothing wrong with the quality, and anyway, at that price, you can afford a spare ;D
PS--If you're wondering, I stuck that one semi-permanently on the bottom with two strips of industrial 2-sided tape. Velcro will work, if you're the cautious type!)
cheers
Dave
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Wow, that looks great. Nicely done! I'm definitely going to grab one or two of those batteries. Got a link for that RA>RA USB cable? I could only find ones that were RA on the micro side.
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Wow, that looks great. Nicely done! I'm definitely going to grab one or two of those batteries. Got a link for that RA>RA USB cable? I could only find ones that were RA on the micro side.
Oh yeah... forgot about that. I became a bit obsessed with getting the right cable, so I ordered them from maybe a half dozen different sellers. I'll try and find the right link for ya...
This is the one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Left-Angle-USB-to-Micro-B-Data-Charging-Cable-For-S2-S3-HTC-LG-Motorola-20cm-TW-/131302608813?hash=item1e923ecfad
Dave
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^^ I want that red knob!!! It looks like anodized aluminum - where did you get it? I'm assuming the old one just pulls off?
Also, the XLR cables don't look like the work of any of the TS builders - can you tell us about those as well?
VERY cool setup. I'll put that battery up on the FAQ page. Even if that 20,000 mAh is an exaggeration (and I'm willing to bet it is), it still looks like a great buy.
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^^ I want that red knob!!! It looks like anodized aluminum - where did you get it? I'm assuming the old one just pulls off?
Also, the XLR cables don't look like the work of any of the TS builders - can you tell us about those as well?
VERY cool setup. I'll put that battery up on the FAQ page. Even if that 20,000 mAh is an exaggeration (and I'm willing to bet it is), it still looks like a great buy.
Hey, thanks! That's a red Bakelite knob from an old Tektronix oscilloscope, bored out to 6mm and the front surface faced off flat. I always disliked that slippery OEM data knob!
The R/A female XLRs are my own make, 'X' -series Neutrixes with the threaded ends turned off and a slot milled out for the cable (Mogami 2552). The plastic end caps are an Ace Hardware part, also drilled and slotted for cable entry. I made 10' cables (#4 cable is 6" longer and runs round the back, taped into the concave groove of the battery casing.)
Dave
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Nice setup!!
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That's hot groovon. I'm going to check it out more later when I can really read/look
I have the rav mentioned above and the 60d. I get over 8 hrs for a reference point
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I would pay you good money for one of those knobs, especially if you could match the paint of the handles. Makes it much easier to find in a dark bag. Seriously, hit me up in a PM if that's a possibility.
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I would pay you good money for one of those knobs, especially if you could match the paint of the handles. Makes it much easier to find in a dark bag. Seriously, hit me up in a PM if that's a possibility.
Ha! That would be the first good money I'll have seen in a long while in that case ;D Seriously though, I'll see what I've got and let you know ...
Maybe there's a market for 'em, like the red anodized shutter buttons some Leica owners just have to have ;D ...erk, did someone say 'CNC'd in China'? There goes my business model, LOL :(
(PS--Yes, the original knob just pulls off--if you can grab hold of the stupid convex shape(!) The shaft has a flat, the rotational position of which is non-critical, so many knobs made for either 6mm flatted shaft, or 6mm dia. with a set screw, or even just a firm push-fit, will work. Just remember not to set the knob hard against the front panel, as some small amount of clearance is needed for it to also act as a push-button.)
Dave
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I would pay you good money for one of those knobs, especially if you could match the paint of the handles. Makes it much easier to find in a dark bag. Seriously, hit me up in a PM if that's a possibility.
Ha! That would be the first good money I'll have seen in a long while in that case ;D Seriously though, I'll see what I've got and let you know ...
Maybe there's a market for 'em, like the red anodized shutter buttons some Leica owners just have to have ;D ...erk, did someone say 'CNC'd in China'? There goes my business model, LOL :(
(PS--Yes, the original knob just pulls off--if you can grab hold of the stupid convex shape(!) The shaft has a flat, the rotational position of which is non-critical, so many knobs made for either 6mm flatted shaft, or 6mm dia. with a set screw, or even just a firm push-fit, will work. Just remember not to set the knob hard against the front panel, as some small amount of clearance is needed for it to also act as a push-button.)
Dave
In that case, I think some smaller guitar tone knobs would work, as they use 6mm or 1/4" shafts I think. Your solution looks better though. ;D
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I would pay you good money for one of those knobs, especially if you could match the paint of the handles. Makes it much easier to find in a dark bag. Seriously, hit me up in a PM if that's a possibility.
Ha! That would be the first good money I'll have seen in a long while in that case ;D Seriously though, I'll see what I've got and let you know ...
Maybe there's a market for 'em, like the red anodized shutter buttons some Leica owners just have to have ;D ...erk, did someone say 'CNC'd in China'? There goes my business model, LOL :(
(PS--Yes, the original knob just pulls off--if you can grab hold of the stupid convex shape(!) The shaft has a flat, the rotational position of which is non-critical, so many knobs made for either 6mm flatted shaft, or 6mm dia. with a set screw, or even just a firm push-fit, will work. Just remember not to set the knob hard against the front panel, as some small amount of clearance is needed for it to also act as a push-button.)
Dave
In that case, I think some smaller guitar tone knobs would work, as they use 6mm or 1/4" shafts I think. Your solution looks better though. ;D
Has to be for 6mm shaft. 1/4" will fall off or wobble. :(
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There are about 1,000 listings for 6mm shaft size knobs on ebay. Surely one of them would work.
Grabbed one of those batteries and that cable. Thanks a bunch.
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There are about 1,000 listings for 6mm shaft size knobs on ebay. Surely one of them would work.
Grabbed one of those batteries and that cable. Thanks a bunch.
You're welcome.
Dave
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Wow, that looks great. Nicely done! I'm definitely going to grab one or two of those batteries. Got a link for that RA>RA USB cable? I could only find ones that were RA on the micro side.
Oh yeah... forgot about that. I became a bit obsessed with getting the right cable, so I ordered them from maybe a half dozen different sellers. I'll try and find the right link for ya...
This is the one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Left-Angle-USB-to-Micro-B-Data-Charging-Cable-For-S2-S3-HTC-LG-Motorola-20cm-TW-/131302608813?hash=item1e923ecfad
Dave
What I really would want in this situation would be a right-angle USB A at the battery end and a left-angle Micro B at the recorder end. Then it you wouldn't have to have that extra bend in the cable at the battery as shown in in your pictures - both cables would exit "up" if running in a bag. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like anyone makes one, so what you found is probably the best solution.
This company will do what I described as a custom job, but it's $50 for a 6-inch cable!!! :o
http://www.usbfirewire.com/usb_cables_a_to_micro-b_left_angled_a_to_left_angled_micro_b_62.html (http://www.usbfirewire.com/usb_cables_a_to_micro-b_left_angled_a_to_left_angled_micro_b_62.html)
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There are about 1,000 listings for 6mm shaft size knobs on ebay. Surely one of them would work.
Yeah I've looked, but none look as cool as Groovon's. I think I'll take one of his. ;)
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Wow, that looks great. Nicely done! I'm definitely going to grab one or two of those batteries. Got a link for that RA>RA USB cable? I could only find ones that were RA on the micro side.
Oh yeah... forgot about that. I became a bit obsessed with getting the right cable, so I ordered them from maybe a half dozen different sellers. I'll try and find the right link for ya...
This is the one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Left-Angle-USB-to-Micro-B-Data-Charging-Cable-For-S2-S3-HTC-LG-Motorola-20cm-TW-/131302608813?hash=item1e923ecfad
Dave
What I really would want in this situation would be a right-angle USB A at the battery end and a left-angle Micro B at the recorder end. Then it you wouldn't have to have that extra bend in the cable at the battery as shown in in your pictures - both cables would exit "up" if running in a bag. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like anyone makes one, so what you found is probably the best solution.
Yes, I agree that might have been better, and I even found some like you describe, but they're a few cms too long and require a loop to take up the slack. You just can't win(!) Actually the double bend in mine doesn't obstruct anything too badly, and the microUSB connector is protected somewhat by the protrusion of the XLR end. Anyway, if you had to, for around $1.79 a pop you can just keep buying USB cables from China till you get the right one ;D
Dave
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There are about 1,000 listings for 6mm shaft size knobs on ebay. Surely one of them would work.
Yeah I've looked, but none look as cool as Groovon's. I think I'll take one of his. ;)
It improves the sound, as well ;)
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Anyone using the built-in M-S matrix? There's almost nothing about it in the manual, that I can find.
Dave
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Anyone using the built-in M-S matrix? There's almost nothing about it in the manual, that I can find.
Dave
Haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting. It appears that you can choose to either recorded decoded or recorded un-decoded but monitor through the matrix. I'm not sure why anyone would ever choose the first option as you would have to go through extra processing steps in post to change your M/S ratio, unless you have no time for post and need to deliver a M/S recording immediately - maybe for boom pole use?
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Anyone using the built-in M-S matrix? There's almost nothing about it in the manual, that I can find.
Dave
Haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting. It appears that you can choose to either recorded decoded or recorded un-decoded but monitor through the matrix. I'm not sure why anyone would ever choose the first option as you would have to go through extra processing steps in post to change your M/S ratio, unless you have no time for post and need to deliver a M/S recording immediately - maybe for boom pole use?
There are plenty of VST and AU plugins which allow one to vary M and S without having to decode first.
I love recording decoded so I can listen to the recording on the way home. I then tweak the M/S ratio in post.
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Anyone using the built-in M-S matrix? There's almost nothing about it in the manual, that I can find.
Dave
Haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting. It appears that you can choose to either recorded decoded or recorded un-decoded but monitor through the matrix. I'm not sure why anyone would ever choose the first option as you would have to go through extra processing steps in post to change your M/S ratio, unless you have no time for post and need to deliver a M/S recording immediately - maybe for boom pole use?
There are plenty of VST and AU plugins which allow one to vary M and S without having to decode first.
I love recording decoded so I can listen to the recording on the way home. I then tweak the M/S ratio in post.
And I like waiting until I'm home to decode - I feel like it's opening a present, one that I get to tweak right away to get the sound I want. To each his own, I suppose.
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are you guys using micro-SD cards in the adapter or using the full size SD cards?
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Full size but I've used micro sandisks with adapters in my camera with zero issues. The bigger cards seem easier to handle. However I've wondered if I could pop a micro card in my tablet for playback, but haven't tried it.
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Cool. I bought a full size 16GB Samsung card last night and ran some tests with it, so far so good.
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Just a recommendation to run a 5-10 minute test recording at home and listen back for any weird sound artifacts before heading to your first gig. My first outing unfortunately got marred with digi-noise and would've turned out great. It's happened to a few of us so far. My issue was with a Sandisk 32GB CL10. No issues at all with SD 8GB Class 4. It could've been an isolated incident with my card, but damn if this recorder doesn't give the impression that it's finicky with cards, regardless of the specs. No way I'd run a 128GB in mine comfortably at this time.
I have had this happen in the field twice now, that a live master recording is ruined in the Tascam.
my guess is that you ABSOLUTELY MUST FORMAT THE CARD IN THE DR-70D in order to avoid this.
I am not at all happy about this machine right now.
:(
This may seem obvious, but reformat the card every once in a while - and make sure you're formatting in the recorder.
WHY should SD cards have to be reformatted? Formatting them decreases their life!?
That said, the SD card board suggests formatting with their formatter...
https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/
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My 1st time out with the 70d showed the same results. Strange diginoise throughout a set of music on both channels 1/2 and 3/4. I was using an older 32gb micro SD card though. I've run twice since then with a 64gb Sandisk Ultra, the 1st time was fine and I've yet to listen to what I pulled lastnight. Keeping my fingers crossed...
I did reinstall the firmware from the the original version through the current version and I also formatted the new SD card in the unit to make sure (hope) that everything played nice.
I will check back through my files from lastnight and report back at some point tonight hopefully.
EDIT: Filesets from lastnight are all good and sound nice! So, 2 outta 3 aint bad...
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i think its a good idea to re-format the card in the recorder every time you use it. that way i know it is good to go and will have enough room on it for whatever i am recording.
this is how i use to do it with the CF cards in my Fostex Fr-2LE and never had an issue with digi noise caused by the card.
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I'm really happy with this deck aside from the maiden voyage a couple weeks ago. Keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't happen again.
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I guess I'm spoiled from my old reliable Sony PCM-M10's, where I have not reformatted the memory in several years, I just delete files, and if on a mac, BE SURE TO EMPTY THE "TRASH!"
I suppose I will continue to run the Sonys and just use the Tascam for unimportant recordings.
:facepalm:
possible slogans:
"TASCAM - the brand to use when you have something unimportant to record!"
"TASCAM - the first choice when quality is not important or necessary!"
"TASCAM - wouldn't you rather have a Sony?"
"TASCAM - don't bother!"
"TASCAM - if you are looking for something unreliable"
"TASCAM - not compatible with existing formats"
"TASCAM - Worst Case Scenario"
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More detail from Jim Williams on his mod here - https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11321104-post23.html
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Wow, that looks great. Nicely done! I'm definitely going to grab one or two of those batteries. Got a link for that RA>RA USB cable? I could only find ones that were RA on the micro side.
Oh yeah... forgot about that. I became a bit obsessed with getting the right cable, so I ordered them from maybe a half dozen different sellers. I'll try and find the right link for ya...
This is the one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Left-Angle-USB-to-Micro-B-Data-Charging-Cable-For-S2-S3-HTC-LG-Motorola-20cm-TW-/131302608813?hash=item1e923ecfad
Dave
What I really would want in this situation would be a right-angle USB A at the battery end and a left-angle Micro B at the recorder end. Then it you wouldn't have to have that extra bend in the cable at the battery as shown in in your pictures - both cables would exit "up" if running in a bag. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like anyone makes one, so what you found is probably the best solution.
This company will do what I described as a custom job, but it's $50 for a 6-inch cable!!! :o
http://www.usbfirewire.com/usb_cables_a_to_micro-b_left_angled_a_to_left_angled_micro_b_62.html (http://www.usbfirewire.com/usb_cables_a_to_micro-b_left_angled_a_to_left_angled_micro_b_62.html)
Here are the best USB cables made for the 70D IMO!!! They take 2 weeks to get, but worth EVERY penny ;) The Left-Angle are awesome ;D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381090437511?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=650404631055&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I've ordered them a few diifferent times and always got them in about 2 weeks since they're coming from China! And they're only 6" long. Absolutely perfect for the 70D. I also use them to charge my phone on the go!
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Once I got a rock solid 64gb and 32gb sd card, my 70D has performed flawlessly. I have ALWAYS formatted before each use and every should as a rule of thumb. Every piece of gear has pros/cons, but Im LOVING my 70D so far. And the sound of the stock preamps REALLY amazes me. Easily on par with my vms02ib recordings IMO. I have run LOTS of comps at festies this summer and Phish, so you all can listen for yourself ;)
But it definitely bums me out and makes me wonder if/when mine will shit on me after reading all of your posts :( I ALWAYS run an m10 backup from my vms now anyway, because the ONE day I didn't this summer, I used an extra new micro sd card I had never tried in the 70D before and my 70D recordings from that day were unsaveable, so I'll ALWAYS run an m10 backup. But I feel once my sd cards were solid and verified to work then I have had zero problems since!
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I finally did some home testing with the DR70d using a 64gig PNY card. Everything worked just fine and no issues. I haven't had a chance to use it in the field.
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Tascam has recently added a "Tested Media List" to their downloads (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/) page with more updated info than what is listed on the specifications (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) page:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
There is also an updated reference manual:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rm_vb.pdf
Apologies if these were already discussed.
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Tascam has recently added a "Tested Media List" to their downloads (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/) page with more updated info than what is listed on the specifications (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) page:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
There is also an updated reference manual:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rm_vb.pdf
Apologies if these were already discussed.
Thanks - both going up on the FAQ.
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Tascam has recently added a "Tested Media List" to their downloads (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/) page with more updated info than what is listed on the specifications (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) page:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
There is also an updated reference manual:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rm_vb.pdf
Apologies if these were already discussed.
I wonder why the Sandisk 64gb Ultra Plus card didn't make the cut? I've been using it without issue so far. Happy I didn't spring for a 128gb card yet...
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That is a short list!!
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^ And within a line of cards, some 16g cards are okay, but not 32g cards, but some 32 cards by the same manufacturer were okay. And all cards on the list are SDHC cards.
My 70d has never failed to record no matter what card I've used, but mostly I have used 16g cards if that makes any difference. Maybe there is something about the higher density cards that is more problematic?
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Just recently had 3 recording with a short 3-4 second "skip" with 3 different cards!!!
One was a local band practice jam so didn't really matter. Other were head liners at festivals...
The one I just bought 3 days ago is now one the ones that are in "red" on that page that DO NOT WORK. Arg!!!
Agreed with 2manyrocks that the "new Tascam DR-70 SD list" seems hit and miss...really want a 32 GB card that is reliable...
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So sounds like the issues with noise in recordings is a SD card compatibility problem??? My PNY 64gig card appears to be working, but I've only done home testing.
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Tascam has recently added a "Tested Media List" to their downloads (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/) page with more updated info than what is listed on the specifications (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) page:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
There is also an updated reference manual:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rm_vb.pdf
Apologies if these were already discussed.
I wonder why the Sandisk 64gb Ultra Plus card didn't make the cut? I've been using it without issue so far. Happy I didn't spring for a 128gb card yet...
there are no cards over 32, I bet they did t try it and that they used the same cards they had sitting around from past tests
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Just recently had 3 recording with a short 3-4 second "skip" with 3 different cards!!!
One was a local band practice jam so didn't really matter. Other were head liners at festivals...
The one I just bought 3 days ago is now one the ones that are in "red" on that page that DO NOT WORK. Arg!!!
Agreed with 2manyrocks that the "new Tascam DR-70 SD list" seems hit and miss...really want a 32 GB card that is reliable...
Noticed it with an older Class 10 PNY card. I've also noticed it when I used Windows to access the SD card through a reader as opposed to using the recorders USB connection.
Need to do more testing, but I've decided to record paired stereo tracks instead of mono. 2 file writes instead of 4.
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OK the fix is in. :P Brad Sarno ( http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/ ) came up with this solution:
I've been struggling with a new DR-70D until this week. I got the thing because it was just what seemed a lot of bang for the buck. $250 for 4 channels, 4 XLR inputs, 24/96k audio, etc. My ONLY issue with it was the audio failing to write, getting write-timeout errors, or when it did record I'd get glitchy, stuttery audio. It turns out it's all about the SD cards. Their list of verified cards has grown VERY small. I even bought a "verified" 32G Panasonic card for it. It worked most of the time, but on some audio it would again glitch out. So I talked to B&H and he said that he's had great luck with it and satisfied users, BUT not with any of the 32G cards. Something about how the unit just doesn't talk well to a 32G when it tries to read the available space while it's recording. So he sent me one of these for $9 & free shipping. Now this thing seems to be perfect. Not a high end pro machine, but very utilitarian and affordable. But anyone with a DR-70D, in my opinion, MUST use THIS card here and no other: (see attached photo of a Sandisk Ultra 16GB CL10 UHSI 40MB/s SDHC
(http://)
ps: FoBean, THANK YOU for this, i just ordered four of 'em.
Here are the best USB cables made for the 70D IMO!!! They take 2 weeks to get, but worth EVERY penny ;) The Left-Angle are awesome ;D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381090437511?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=650404631055&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I've ordered them a few diifferent times and always got them in about 2 weeks since they're coming from China! And they're only 6" long. Absolutely perfect for the 70D. I also use them to charge my phone on the go!
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How long does it take for the glitches to start?? I have a 64gig card and it worked great with home testing. You would think that would cause more problems than a 32gig card. Hopefully the next firmware update gives it greater card compatibility. It should be able to use the 128gig sdxc cards.
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I've said this before but it bears repeating:
Periodically format the card in the recorder, no matter what card you're using. In my experience SD cards are fickle things and can easily develop filesystem errors and/or bad sectors. This kind of memory can and often does develop dead zones. This could happen to any card, any size, any time. A format every so often can help these issues by rebuilding said filesystem around those places.
Definitely follow the recommended media lists, but don't be surprised if you still encounter issues like this on recommended cards. It's the nature of the beast.
I also have a theory on why we are possibly seeing this with the 70D more than we have in other recorders: Due to its price, it may likely be the first 4-channel recorder many of us have owned that records to SD cards. Recording in 4 channels is going to be more taxing on the card, making it more likely that you'll encounter these sort of issues.
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^The R44 and DR680 do 4 channels without card issue!
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Yeah, four channels at 24/96 yields a data rate of ~ 1.1 MB/s (if I did the math right). So a class 2 card performing to spec should be able to handle it without breaking a sweat...
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Well it was just a theory. Maybe the 70D really is more picky than other devices about cards.
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Well it was just a theory. Maybe the 70D really is more picky than other devices about cards.
or maybe they have a bug in the filesystem? Has anyone had the glitch problem after formatting a card freshly in the machine?
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Suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly, Moke joins the team.
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Well it was just a theory. Maybe the 70D really is more picky than other devices about cards.
or maybe they have a bug in the filesystem? Has anyone had the glitch problem after formatting a card freshly in the machine?
I had a brand new card that I formatted before using at Lockn', out of all the sets that I recorded, three have the glitchy audio problem, it sounds like the recording was rewound and played back over top of itself if that makes any sense. But anyway, the problem happens after formatting a card freshly in the machine.
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Seems like this complaint is happening with a few folks. Making me nervous to use it. Kenny what type and size card are you using??
Well it was just a theory. Maybe the 70D really is more picky than other devices about cards.
or maybe they have a bug in the filesystem? Has anyone had the glitch problem after formatting a card freshly in the machine?
I had a brand new card that I formatted before using at Lockn', out of all the sets that I recorded, three have the glitchy audio problem, it sounds like the recording was rewound and played back over top of itself if that makes any sense. But anyway, the problem happens after formatting a card freshly in the machine.
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It was a 32g Sandisk Ultra
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I think those are on the incompatible list
It was a 32g Sandisk Ultra
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Yeah I guess I should have looked at that list. :facepalm: Luckily I wasn't the only taper at Lockn'.
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Might I ask where to find this list of cards?
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Might I ask where to find this list of cards?
few posts back has a list http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2159438#msg2159438
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Thanks, I just was coming to ask if that was the list. I was just heading out to get a card.
My first test runs are going to be a few cassette transfers; so nothing too crucial.
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Had a couple of issues running the 70d lastnight. First, I was running on USB power when i powered the deck on. Started up fine, about 5 minutes or so into the show I noticed the deck had turned off and not switched over to the internal AA power for some reason. After turning it back on it wouldnt run on USB power and only the internal power. Corrected this at set break and it ran fine on USB power for the 2nd set. Shows over and I stop the recording (4 channels on external pre amps), I went to turn the unit off and I got the "Cant Save Data" message, figured it wouldnt save the files but they are still there. The unit did reset the track count back to zero for some reason so I have a 22, then a 1 and 2...not sure whats going on here but this makes 2 out of 4 times ive run this deck now ive encountered problems...
I was using a Sandisk 64gb Ultra card which hasnt given me problems, but this doesnt seem to be card related...
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How about people post what cards they are using the work!!
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^Yes, that would be quite helpful to see whats working for others...
FWIW, I emailed tascam support and let them know about my problem, they directed me to their list of supported SD cards. Picked up a 16gb Ultra for short money and I really hoping this will remedy my issues...
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How about people post what cards they are using the work!!
Once again... there's a list of those in the FAQ thread. If anyone has any other good ones to add, post it here and I'll add them to the list.
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BAD:
I had another TOTAL GARBAGE night with the DR-70D ... this time, attempting to run 4 channels at 24/48 on a freshly-formatted 16GB Sandisk Ultra SDHC 30MB/s CL10 HC-I, red, white, grey & silver label.
This deck is on DOUBLE PROBATION, and not the secret kind! I'm about to sell it 'As-Is, like new" on ebay.
This is BS.
I am horribly embarrassed to have the initials TAS right now. IT IS NOT MY SCAM!!!!!
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Had the issue you all are talking about above. Again cheap card was the only thing I could come up with. Since I have switched to PNY Elite I have not had an issue.
kept the deck running all weekend at Vibes with NO issues.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WWBCQCK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
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Did anyone have this issue with previous firmware versions? Mine is on 1.11 0054
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Did anyone have this issue with previous firmware versions? Mine is on 1.11 0054
I did not. My issue happened after the upgrade. But honestly I was using a very cheap card and doing 4 channels.
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When I have encountered problems I was doing 4 channels at 24/48 on external preamps, one pair into the ext 1/2 mini jack and another pair into xlr 3/4. The 1st problem with the weird skipping on the recording was with a 32gb micro SD with an adapter and the latest time was with a fresh 64gb Ultra Sandisk card. I'm kinda at a loss here...
I am running the 1.11 firmware as well.
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MicroSD RAID array, anyone? Auxiliary external HDD? Some kind of dual card/redundant system? Shirley someone could hack this? 8>]
Dave
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I've been using a pair of Lexar Platinum II 16GB cards since the beginning.
Still on original firmware...no upgrades.
I've considered them glitch free - except for one instance - that only affected one channel - a few spikes that sound like digi-crackles.
Since it only affected on channel - and all other recordings have been fine - I shyed away from thinking it was the card.
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I reported on a weird glitch I had after the Vibes here http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174289.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174289.0) this was after the firmware upgrade.
Card: Transcend SDHC 10 32GB
Firmware: 1.11 54
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I was thinking about getting one of these since they are starting to pop up slightly used at a discount but after reading all these stories of coming home without the goods I think I'll stick with my DR60d. It has performed flawlessly without a hitch since day one.
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BAD:
I had another TOTAL GARBAGE night with the DR-70D ... this time, attempting to run 4 channels at 24/48 on a freshly-formatted 16GB Sandisk Ultra SDHC 30MB/s CL10 HC-I, red, white, grey & silver label.
This deck is on DOUBLE PROBATION, and not the secret kind! I'm about to sell it 'As-Is, like new" on ebay.
This is BS.
I am horribly embarrassed to have the initials TAS right now. IT IS NOT MY SCAM!!!!!
Fisher
Price
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Well, I barely have anything to add, yet. But, I have done four cassette transfers in the last day and a half now, without a glitch. A bit different than live, and I've not touched the onboard mic inputs; just using the line-in as stereo transfers.
16gb Sandisk Ultra card.
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Did anyone have this issue with previous firmware versions? Mine is on 1.11 0054
thats my thoughts
Seems like the issues are popping up after the firmware upgrade
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Anyone pm the Tascam Rep that shows up here sometimes and let him know of the issues people are having?
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Anyone pm the Tascam Rep that shows up here sometimes and let him know of the issues people are having?
I have several times regarding the issues list in the FAQ, but I'm not sure how often he checks in here. He's more active on jwsound I think.
User name is tomuo if you want to give it a shot.
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Did anyone have this issue with previous firmware versions? Mine is on 1.11 0054
thats my thoughts
Seems like the issues are popping up after the firmware upgrade
I am thinking it's a 1.11 problem!
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Did anyone have this issue with previous firmware versions? Mine is on 1.11 0054
thats my thoughts
Seems like the issues are popping up after the firmware upgrade
I am thinking it's a 1.11 problem!
Can we go backward and reload an earlier version and it will work?
Anyone tried this?
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I have never updated firmware, so I have the "original" firmware still loaded.
I'm using a SanDisk Ultra 16GB (15mb/s, Class 4) card.
I've only used the DR-70 a few times.. twice in the field.. a number of times at home.
I have not had any problems that I know of.
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Can we go backward and reload an earlier version and it will work?
Anyone tried this?
I sold my DR70D and because of this mess, the buyer ended up deciding he didn't want it anymore so I'm getting it back, so I won't have mine in front of me until Tuesday. But checking the Tascam website, they have V1.02 and V1.10 still showing. I'm pretty sure all you have to do is grab either of those versions and use the same install procedure in order to overwrite the currently installed version. That's what I'm going to do the second I get my hands back on this unit.
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Firmware is rarely revertable, but here's hoping.
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Firmware is rarely revertable, but here's hoping.
The person that had the 70D said he tried all of the firmware versions and it didn't solve the glitches. Plan B is that I have a million different SD cards that I'll try in it.
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I aint changing nuthin!!! >:D
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Another round of cassettes transferred, and no issues.
Question, please and thanks,....
Powering w/ external USB battery pack.
Something like this OK?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50000mAh-3-USB-Backup-External-Battery-Power-Bank-Pack-Charger-for-Cell-Phone-/181830020550?hash=item2a55e9edc6
Better, or, suggested?
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That will do fine. The unit draws around a watt per hour recording 4 channel, phantom on.
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I ran four channels at a three day fest last month. I used the DR-70 at one stage that had 5 or 6 sets per day and I ran a pair of Busman Omnis on stage into 1-2 with a FOH board feed on channels 3-4.
No glitches found and everything ran smooth once I swapped SD cards at the start of the first day. I had a Transcend 16 gig class 10 card that it refused to write to and I quickly popped in a SanDisk Extreme 16 Gig card and ran that the rest of the weekend. The card glitch was weird since I tested the card in the deck before the fest. Running current firmware. Turns out, my deck is still on 1.10.
I also ran this deck without any glitches at a Wilco show running some Busman large diaphragm mics into a V2 into 1-2 and some Line Audio CM3s into 3-4.
After reading other people's problems, I'm not sure I will run this deck without a backup until it has earned my trust. But knock on wood, so far so good.
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Don't know if it was a fluke but mine ran fine with the original firmware. I installed V1.10 and it didn't like the Sandisk micro SD with adaptor any longer that came with the unit free from B&h. It ran great for 30 minutes and then it turned to total digital crap. Ruined both sets of George Porter Jr. and I was the only taper there. Since then, I changed to a Sandisk 16 GB class 4 SDHC and it has run without a problem but mine is also on probation. My DR-680 and DR60d have never failed me so if it messes up again, I'm dumping it. I don't really need it but I like its size and how it sounds when it works.
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Well, at one point, I had FOMO on this unit. The fact that there have been numerous reports of artifact on recordings has definitely made me more than happy with my 60D. Does Tascam know about these issues?
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I did contact tascam and all they did was direct me to their list of acceptable SD cards.
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It sounds like Class 4 cards might have better luck than Class 10 cards.... maybe??
I'll try to test at home with the Class 4 card again and report back.
I am not switching cards if I find confidence in the Class 4.
.....this isn't a "pro" deck... so maybe it doesn't like "pro" cards..
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Firmware, not wormware.... :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:
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Don't know if it was a fluke but mine ran fine with the original firmware. I installed V1.10 and it didn't like the Sandisk micro SD with adaptor any longer that came with the unit free from B&h. It ran great for 30 minutes and then it turned to total digital crap. Ruined both sets of George Porter Jr. and I was the only taper there. Since then, I changed to a Sandisk 16 GB class 4 SDHC and it has run without a problem but mine is also on probation. My DR-680 and DR60d have never failed me so if it messes up again, I'm dumping it. I don't really need it but I like its size and how it sounds when it works.
Have installed V1.10 and had multiple problems with a Sandisk 32 GB class 4 SDHC so I switched to a freshly formatted Sandisk 32 GB class 10 SDHC and it had errors too. So as someone said maybe its the 32GB size it does not like...it is like a guessing game and there might not be one answer that fits all...
Almost always run 4 channels. Interesting on the Sandisk 32 GB class 10 SDHC error. First set ran phantom on one set of channels and other with a preamp. Second set no phantom and ran 2 external preamp and same error. So it errors with phantom on or off...
==========================================================
Question to the group:
What time does it error on the SD card?
My errors seem late into sets...errors start after an hour of recording...like at 1:12 or 1:22 into a set..only a few glitches too then runs fine to end of set...really weird!!!
Is this what everyone is experiencing on there SD cards -Late set errors running 4 channels?
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Is this what everyone is experiencing on there SD cards -Late set errors running 4 channels?
I have had trouble on both two and four-channel recordings, with two different cards.
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I did contact tascam and all they did was direct me to their list of acceptable SD cards.
That's a fairly predictable response. I don't see them taking any investigative action until people start having problems with one of their "approved" cards.
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I did contact tascam and all they did was direct me to their list of acceptable SD cards.
That's a fairly predictable response.
And completely understandable IMO, since they've made it known that cards other than those recommended may prove unreliable(!) ;D
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I did contact tascam and all they did was direct me to their list of acceptable SD cards.
That's a fairly predictable response.
And completely understandable IMO, since they've made it known that cards other than those recommended may prove unreliable(!) ;D
You must work for Tascam! It's not understandable response AT ALL. First off, if there are severe limitations to the media can be reliably used in the DR70D, that should have been flushed out at the testing stage. It's not quite, but I'd say it's pretty close to a design flaw if only a tiny percentage of the worlds SD card media is able to work in your device.
Second, in their marketing information on their site, it says...'Tracks on the DR-70D are captured to SD card, SDHC or SDXC media – up to 128GB cards are supported.' The first line in their specification sheet says 'SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)'
With the list of approved media shown, neither of the above statements is true.
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I don't of course work for Tascam, and I agree, it does look like they overstated the case. But I think a considered response will get you further than an emotional one if you expect them to listen to complaints and fix problems. Also I doubt it's possible to 'flush out' every single potential fault in a new product, especially when it involves third-party interfaces. Having said that, I would hope they're reading this, and are working on new firmware as we speak.
Dave
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I don't of course work for Tascam, and I agree, it does look like they overstated the case. But I think a considered response will get you further than an emotional one if you expect them to listen to complaints and fix problems. Also I doubt it's possible to 'flush out' every single potential fault in a new product, especially when it involves third-party interfaces. Having said that, I would hope they're reading this, and are working on new firmware as we speak.
Not emotional, other than I don't understand why a person that apparently doesn't even own one of these units would come into this thread and attempt to tell owners that are having difficulty getting their product to work properly that Tascam's (so far) marginal response to their request for help is reasonable.
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
Dave
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
OK sounds good. I hope you're right that they're looking into this.
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
OK sounds good. I hope you're right that they're looking into this.
I doubt they are, but I just sent a PM to tomuo (the aforementioned Tascam rep) letting him know that this is cropping up for several people with the new firmware, and that a direction to the approved media list does not constitute a complete response.
I have PM'd him several times before and given past experience I don't expect a reply, but we'll see. The bigger problem as I see it is that we are resorting to trying to contact one particular Tascam rep who happens to frequent this board because Tascam's customer service response is so mediocre. I have never been able to even get a reply from them.
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I did contact tascam and all they did was direct me to their list of acceptable SD cards.
That's a fairly predictable response.
And completely understandable IMO, since they've made it known that cards other than those recommended may prove unreliable(!) ;D
You must work for Tascam! It's not understandable response AT ALL. First off, if there are severe limitations to the media can be reliably used in the DR70D, that should have been flushed out at the testing stage. It's not quite, but I'd say it's pretty close to a design flaw if only a tiny percentage of the worlds SD card media is able to work in your device.
Second, in their marketing information on their site, it says...'Tracks on the DR-70D are captured to SD card, SDHC or SDXC media – up to 128GB cards are supported.' The first line in their specification sheet says 'SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)'
With the list of approved media shown, neither of the above statements is true.
Here's what I think happened: the unit is designed to support all of those media, but only a small sample of cards are actually tested before the product is released. So the marketing people are being factually truthful about the unit supporting all of those cards. Then, as the user base gets their hands on it and uses a much wider variety of cards, problems come up and Tascam has to start more thoroughly testing (and yes, they should have done this beforehand).
Couple that with a possible bug in the firmware with writing to certain cards and here we are. It would be really nice to see more than 11 cards tested too...
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I'm wondering if there's something about our disparate powering schemes that could be behind this issue?
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
OK sounds good. I hope you're right that they're looking into this.
I doubt they are, but I just sent a PM to tomuo (the aforementioned Tascam rep) letting him know that this is cropping up for several people with the new firmware, and that a direction to the approved media list does not constitute a complete response.
I have PM'd him several times before and given past experience I don't expect a reply, but we'll see. The bigger problem as I see it is that we are resorting to trying to contact one particular Tascam rep who happens to frequent this board because Tascam's customer service response is so mediocre. I have never been able to even get a reply from them.
I'm more hopeful. I think Tom showing up here means at least someone at Tascam cares about customer relations. BTW, I've just found an issue with my M10. Anyone want to give odds on me getting a personal response from Sony about it? ;D
Dave
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
OK sounds good. I hope you're right that they're looking into this.
I hope I'm right too. Or, that you'll just find a card that works.
cheers
Dave
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Well, of course I own a DR-70(!) --and I trust that Tascam will attempt to fix this problem :) Sorry for your frustration, but you're taking my comment the wrong way.
OK sounds good. I hope you're right that they're looking into this.
I doubt they are, but I just sent a PM to tomuo (the aforementioned Tascam rep) letting him know that this is cropping up for several people with the new firmware, and that a direction to the approved media list does not constitute a complete response.
I have PM'd him several times before and given past experience I don't expect a reply, but we'll see. The bigger problem as I see it is that we are resorting to trying to contact one particular Tascam rep who happens to frequent this board because Tascam's customer service response is so mediocre. I have never been able to even get a reply from them.
I'm more hopeful. I think Tom showing up here means at least someone at Tascam cares about customer relations. BTW, I've just found an issue with my M10. Anyone want to give odds on me getting a personal response from Sony about it? ;D
Dave
I had an immediate response from Sony when I had an issue with my M10 a couple years ago. They were fantastic through the entire process of responding to my issue, getting me set up at a service center, and replacing my unit when it was determined that there was a manufacturing defect.
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Background:
Manufacturer's SD card speed ratings are only true when you write one file to it, and let the card clean itself up with inactivity every few minutes.
This is always the case in a camera, whether in still or video mode.
For PCM audio in the DR-60D or DR-70D, you've got 2 or 4 files being written at once, i.e. the write position on the SD card is jumping around between
up to 4 different locations, and the writes never stop. SD card manufacturers rarely optimize for this case, which is why many cards end up on the
tested media list as "don't use".
The performance of the card is the problem. The DR-70D can't reduce the number of files written at once, that's it's reason for existing, the individual files.
A few messages here just say "Sandisk 32GB". Sandisk has many different series of SD card.
If a card worked once but is now not working, that's exactely the point - solid state media gets into a state where it needs constant erases and writes
instead of writes to already empty clusters. TASCAM tests media to this point to know if it's good enough, not just the fresh from the package condition.
Some SD cards, class 10 or not, drop to <1MB/sec when they have been well used. They're just not fast enough. The tested media list is there for a reason.
Watch out for counterfit cards as well - even a simple rebadge of a cheaper card with a sandisk label for stuff on eBay.
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^ So why doesn't this seem to be an issue with the R44, the DR680, or most other recorders that use SD?
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You took the words out of my mouth!! It isn't even a problem with the 60d! I'm thinking it is a problem with the deck not the SD cards.
^ So why doesn't this seem to be an issue with the R44, the DR680, or most other recorders that use SD?
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I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...
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I've been following this discussion with interest and thought I'd contribute a possible aside.
My DR-60 on at least two occasions started throwing up write errors and completely locking up - different cards, 'premium' brands and modest (16GB) capacities. I was ready to give it up as a bad unit but found that a firmware upgrade sorted out a known bug which caused write errors when the unit tried to write a marker under certain circumstances.
I'm sure this is a different issue but it perhaps gives an idea of how thorough Tascam's testing is. I certainly won't be running my DR-60 without a back-up for a good while yet.
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I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...
The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode. The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up. It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems... Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards. Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
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The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue. I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d?? Your attitude won't help to win over people experiencing problems with their decks. I've recorded 8 channels with the 680 and never ran into this issue!! I haven't used mine with the exception of some home testing, but I won't run it without a backup.
I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...
The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode. The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up. It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems... Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards. Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
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Quoting in entirety in case of future edits:
Background:
Manufacturer's SD card speed ratings are only true when you write one file to it, and let the card clean itself up with inactivity every few minutes.
This is always the case in a camera, whether in still or video mode.
For PCM audio in the DR-60D or DR-70D, you've got 2 or 4 files being written at once, i.e. the write position on the SD card is jumping around between
up to 4 different locations, and the writes never stop. SD card manufacturers rarely optimize for this case, which is why many cards end up on the
tested media list as "don't use".
The performance of the card is the problem. The DR-70D can't reduce the number of files written at once, that's it's reason for existing, the individual files.
A few messages here just say "Sandisk 32GB". Sandisk has many different series of SD card.
If a card worked once but is now not working, that's exactely the point - solid state media gets into a state where it needs constant erases and writes
instead of writes to already empty clusters. TASCAM tests media to this point to know if it's good enough, not just the fresh from the package condition.
Some SD cards, class 10 or not, drop to <1MB/sec when they have been well used. They're just not fast enough. The tested media list is there for a reason.
Watch out for counterfit cards as well - even a simple rebadge of a cheaper card with a sandisk label for stuff on eBay.
I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...
The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode. The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up. It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems... Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards. Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
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The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue. I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d??
There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't. The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.
Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into? I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.
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has anyone had the glitch issue with one of Tascam's short list of confirmed good cards?
It's unfortunate that none of the cards are available in the USA, only in Japan. Not very happy right now, I just purchased some cards from B & H that are supposed to work, but they are not the japanese cards on the list:
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/
The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue. I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d??
There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't. The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.
Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into? I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.
ok let me sum up:
First known issue was with an ADATA card, not on the approved list, so of course that's not Tascam's fault.
Second known issue was with a SANDISK card, also not on the approved list, so if course that's not Tascam's fault.
Tomuo - how much will you compensate me for doing research that TASCAM should be doing? Will my slave labor make your recorder work?
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I am a consumer in this case, you are going to see continued piling on of negativity from my end until this problem is resolved to my satisfaction.
My first bad write was on this card:
ADATA 16 GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Memory Card 16GSDHC6 (Blue)
purchased in August of 2009 from Amazon.com
The card has been heavily used, and may have been formatted in my Panasonic camera before use in the Tascam. The error I found was a failure to write glitch-free files in 4-channel operation at 24/48.
My second bad write was on this card:
SanDisk Ultra SDHC I CL10 30MB/Sec with a black, white, red and metallic silver label
That was attempting to have the DR-70D write a single stereo file at 24/48
There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't. The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.
Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into? I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.
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has anyone had the glitch issue with one of Tascam's short list of confirmed good cards?
It's unfortunate that none of the cards are available in the USA, only in Japan. Not very happy right now, I just purchased some cards from B & H that are supposed to work, but they are not the japanese cards on the list:
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/
Check the PDF list here:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
Sandisk and Panasonic label their cards with the original purchase area, so we re-publish the info in this pdf with the US equivalent.
This caused confusion in the past, we certainly don't expect you to go out-of-market to get the Japanese labelled card; they are the same, only the packaging is different.
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I used a cheap Trancend 32gig card in my DR680, R-44, and Sony PCM D100 without issue, but it won't work on the 70d because it won't keep up. That doesn't make since to me. This is the card I have been using in several recorders and running 4 plus channels with no issue. It isn't on the approved media list for the DR680. Starting to regret selling my R44
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/transcend-32gb-sdhc-class-10-uhs-i-memory-card-blue/8932739.p?id=1218955961432&skuId=8932739
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Background:
Manufacturer's SD card speed ratings are only true when you write one file to it, and let the card clean itself up with inactivity every few minutes.
This is always the case in a camera, whether in still or video mode.
For PCM audio in the DR-60D or DR-70D, you've got 2 or 4 files being written at once, i.e. the write position on the SD card is jumping around between
up to 4 different locations, and the writes never stop. SD card manufacturers rarely optimize for this case, which is why many cards end up on the
tested media list as "don't use".
The performance of the card is the problem. The DR-70D can't reduce the number of files written at once, that's it's reason for existing, the individual files.
A few messages here just say "Sandisk 32GB". Sandisk has many different series of SD card.
If a card worked once but is now not working, that's exactely the point - solid state media gets into a state where it needs constant erases and writes
instead of writes to already empty clusters. TASCAM tests media to this point to know if it's good enough, not just the fresh from the package condition.
Some SD cards, class 10 or not, drop to <1MB/sec when they have been well used. They're just not fast enough. The tested media list is there for a reason.
Watch out for counterfit cards as well - even a simple rebadge of a cheaper card with a sandisk label for stuff on eBay.
Thanks - this is very useful information, and confirms my suspicion that a multi-channel audio recorder may be more taxing on a card than other devices.
That said, I think a situation described by jbell of a card that works fine recording 4 channels in other recorders but not in the 70D might call for closer examination. But the age of the card comes into play also - flash memory does have a limited life span, and SD cards do not employ wear leveling as far as I know, which is used to extend the life of SSD drives.
One frustration about the existing approved media list is that it does not include any of the higher-capacity cards which the 70D is supposed to support. Hopefully there are some in the test pipeline.
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The DR-70D is advertised as supporting up to 128GB cards. But also they are not supported.
Bait? Meet SWITCH!
One frustration about the existing approved media list is that it does not include any of the higher-capacity cards which the 70D is supposed to support. Hopefully there are some in the test pipeline.
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Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
Tomuo. Thanks for the responses. It's nice for you to come in here and address these issues directly with us.
In response to the part of your response that I quoted above, I have a question...you are marketing the unit as being compatible with SDXC cards up to 128gb size. If card speed is the only issue, then why are there no SDXC cards on the list?
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I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...
The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode. The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up. It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems... Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards. Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
appreciate the response but it is a BS one IMO.
My question to your response "why aren't you using cards on the list?" is...
Why advertise "your" recorder as handling up to 128gb cards but none over 32 are on the approved list of cards that work.
Edit looks like many great minds think alike
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appreciate the response but it is a BS one IMO.
My question to your response "why aren't you using cards on the list?" is...
Why advertise "your" recorder as handling up to 128gb cards but none over 32 are on the approved list of cards that work.
May I conjecture?! >:D
1. accidental hardware or firmware bug that escaped past quality control, if firmware, it can be discovered & fixed.
2. shortsightedness? Somehow the machine got to market before they noticed the issues with the failing cards? SD cards are fairly reliable, perhaps something was taken for granted?
3. willingness to risk a class action lawsuit in order to drive sales? I'm in a crabby mood about this DR-70D with the glitch errors, and I do not depend on Tascam for user support on any other products, so I have little to lose by suggesting this.
4. Something Happened To 'Em, Man!?
5. Conspiracy to prevent mastering certain events... ALIENS!!! :o ???
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ANY PRO WOULD LAUGH AT YOUR CUSTOMER SERVICE, IF IT WENT VIRAL THAT YOU SAID THIS!!!!
...
Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
Um, because if I had not read your response today, I would have been trying to search Japanese-language websites for Japanese-packaged SanDisk cards!?!?! *!
Please test these cards, I want to be sure that they all work in my recorder.
Lexar Professional, LSD32GCRBNA600BN, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I, 90 MB/s
ADATA Premier, ASDH16GUICL10-R, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I, 50 MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDUN-016G-G46, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 40 MB/s
Sony SF-32UY2, SF32UY2/TQ, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 70 MB/s
SanDisk Extreme, SDSDXN-032-G46, 32GB, CL10, UHS-3, SDHC I, 60MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDQUA-016G-U46A, 16GB, CL10, MicroSDHC I, 30MB/s
Kingston SDC4/8GB, 8GB, CL4, MicroSDHC, 4MB/s
Transcend TS8GSDHC6, 8GB, CL6, SDHC,
Transcend TS8GSDHC10, 10GB, CL10, SDHC
Also, how about listing some USA cards on your website, not just the Japan versions?
Thank you,
a DR-70D owner
from http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/
Recording media SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)
(Inline image 1)
At some point this will probably be forwarded to the Attornies General of California, and of the United States Of America, as well as the Better Business Bureau, Fraud.org, The Federal Trade Commission, my representatives in US Congress, the California State Legislature, B & H Photo from whom I purchased the DR-70D, and my own lawyer.
I hope you can find me a solution which makes all of that unnecessary. Otherwise, you may wish to consider the ramifications of a class action lawsuit upon your business!
Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns.
Sincerely,
A First-Time Tascam Customer
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Can anyone confirm that they've had problems with one of the cards on the approved list?
If not, 32gigs is over 7 hours for 4 channels at 24/96. That's more than enough for me.
Also, I understand that people are angry, but I think we need a little perspective:
1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.
2. Threatening the tascam rep with a class action lawsuit is a sure way to get him to disappear.
3. It's ok to be frustrated. By be nice!
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Quoting in entirety in case of future edits:
ANY PRO WOULD LAUGH AT YOUR CUSTOMER SERVICE, IF IT WENT VIRAL THAT YOU SAID THIS!!!!
...
Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested. If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule. Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?
Um, because if I had not read your response today, I would have been trying to search Japanese-language websites for Japanese-packaged SanDisk cards!?!?! *!
Please test these cards, I want to be sure that they all work in my recorder.
Lexar Professional, LSD32GCRBNA600BN, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I, 90 MB/s
ADATA Premier, ASDH16GUICL10-R, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I, 50 MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDUN-016G-G46, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 40 MB/s
Sony SF-32UY2, SF32UY2/TQ, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 70 MB/s
SanDisk Extreme, SDSDXN-032-G46, 32GB, CL10, UHS-3, SDHC I, 60MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDQUA-016G-U46A, 16GB, CL10, MicroSDHC I, 30MB/s
Kingston SDC4/8GB, 8GB, CL4, MicroSDHC, 4MB/s
Transcend TS8GSDHC6, 8GB, CL6, SDHC,
Transcend TS8GSDHC10, 10GB, CL10, SDHC
Also, how about listing some USA cards on your website, not just the Japan versions?
Thank you,
a DR-70D owner
from http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/
Recording media SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)
(Inline image 1)
At some point this will probably be forwarded to the Attornies General of California, and of the United States Of America, as well as the Better Business Bureau, Fraud.org, The Federal Trade Commission, my representatives in US Congress, the California State Legislature, B & H Photo from whom I purchased the DR-70D, and my own lawyer.
I hope you can find me a solution which makes all of that unnecessary. Otherwise, you may wish to consider the ramifications of a class action lawsuit upon your business!
Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns.
Sincerely,
A First-Time Tascam Customer
also quoting a much calmer reply
Can anyone confirm that they've had problems with one of the cards on the approved list?
If not, 32gigs is over 7 hours for 4 channels at 24/96. That's more than enough for me.
Also, I understand that people are angry, but I think we need a little perspective:
1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.
2. Threatening the tascam rep with a class action lawsuit is a sure way to get him to disappear.
3. It's ok to be frustrated. By be nice!
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Can anyone confirm that they've had problems with one of the cards on the approved list?
If not, 32gigs is over 7 hours for 4 channels at 24/96. That's more than enough for me.
Also, I understand that people are angry, but I think we need a little perspective:
1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.
2. Threatening the tascam rep with a class action lawsuit is a sure way to get him to disappear.
3. It's ok to be frustrated. By be nice!
:coolguy:
Agreed 100%. Maintain low tones!
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I don't know much about this, but this explanation seems unlikely to me. First of all, there is a specification for SD cards that Tascam's engineers should be taking into consideration; the device should be designed to work with any card that lives up to that specification. Moreover, the host device can query the card's performance, so a well-designed device would tell you, beforehand, that the card had insufficient speed. Four channel, 24 bit, 96 kHz audio puts out ~ 1.1 MB/s and the file allocation table maps how the chunks of data will be reassembled afterwards, so (after formatting in the host) the card should be essentially agnostic to the number of files (mind you, we're talking about the difference between 2 and 4, not 2 and 4 thousand) as long as it can write fast enough, which means anything class 2 or over. I am sure there is some detail of this I don't know or understand, but class 4, certainly, should be easily able to handle this application. Assuming the host device works correctly...
1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a device marketed as a four channel recorder, even an inexpensive one, to, uh, record four channels...
Personally, I think Tascam didn't do it's due diligence here. Just my take, but it seems like they buy up anything they can and flood the market with a LOT of different models, most of them inexpensive. How thorough do you the think the design and testing are? By contrast, look at Sony or Marantz or Roland. Unless I am miscounting, those companies have put out the same number of devices per decade as Tascam per year...
I had made up my mind to buy one of these, but not anymore. It's not just the glitch, either, it's also the condescending response...
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I'm trying to take a more pragmatic look at Tomuo's response right now. Yes, I agree with the frustration people are expressing, except for the threat of class action lawsuit. That's IMHO counter productive at this early stage in the game. I'd suggest opening another thread or take it offsite if you need to talk lawsuits. We need cooperation and answers in this thread to get to a solution, not threats. And it's better to have Tascam on-board trying to solve the problems, if possible, than immediately alienating them with threats.
His response yesterday focused on card quality, so I did some research. This link provided a nice response to explain a little better how cards work and how they can degrade. Mind you, this doesn't explain why most decks work well with some cards and this one won't, but perhaps it's a start to helping us diagnose how best to deal with this issue, especially if the most we get from Tascam is to 'try a better card'.
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/40489/what-causes-an-sd-card-to-go-corrupt
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I've been using the PNY 128gb. I saw that it was on Voltronics "good list" and figured I'd try it for the Peach Fest. Purchased new from B&H. I ran 4 channels into it for 3 days straight, 8 -10 hours per day with no issues. Formatted in the deck. No firmware updates. The 70D has whatever it came with for firmware. Also used lithium internals. Have also ran 4 channels on at least two other occasions with Rav Power. Always 24/48. Now if I can get my M10 to perform this flawlessly I'd be a happy camper. :P
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I've had no problems with mine, either. Worked like a champ (two channels, 32 gig card) at Lockn'.
Add: I never upgraded firmware.
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I've read every post in this thread from the beginning. It is only recently that there have been any complaints about the cards which makes me wonder if the problems are related to firmware updates or using worn out or lesser quality cards? I have mainly used sandisk 16g or Sony 32g cards bought from major retailers with no problems.
Tascam sort of set itself up for question by advertising the product works with large capacity cards, but then none over 32g are on the approved list yet. Any good salesman could see how that could get customers to start asking questions. The tascam rep doesn't run tascam, and don't bereate him for things out of his control.
Overall, the 70d thread took on the status of the favorite child until this card thing came up. Other than the f8 thread, the 70d has been the most discussed recorder here for months on end.
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I used a DR70D on a low budget film shoot for 8 days (16 hours plus per day), mostly on single channel boom, with zero issues. I started experiencing issues after doing firmware upgrade. This could be coincidence....
Thinking it was a hardware failure, I purchased a second unit, upgrading firmware without thinking that may have been an issue. You guessed it, second unit is experiencing same issue.
Hoping TASCAM can resolve this issue quickly. I love everything about this unit....
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1 - I assume no such thing - I simply assumed that a unit specified to work on cards up to 128GB would actually do so in the real world. I am not demanding 744 quality, merely requesting DR-70D quality! If that quality were advertised as glitchy and unlistenable, then I would not be complaining because I would not have purchased the unit.
2 - He's not solving my problem, so I'll have to look further. Tascam should know what's at the end of the line if they can't resolve this. Sending in someone to tell us that it's our fault, and that "any pro would laugh at us" is probably just going to make things worse.
3 - you can't make me be nice, but it's a good suggestion.
Can anyone confirm that they've had problems with one of the cards on the approved list?
If not, 32gigs is over 7 hours for 4 channels at 24/96. That's more than enough for me.
Also, I understand that people are angry, but I think we need a little perspective:
1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.
2. Threatening the tascam rep with a class action lawsuit is a sure way to get him to disappear.
3. It's ok to be frustrated. By be nice!
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We're lucky to have Tomuo from Tascam on Taperssection to hear us out and try to help us thru this. I have no problem using the cards they recommend as long as it records without issues. When it works, I really like it. I just want to have confidence that it's not going to muff up !! We only have 1 chance to capture it live.
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We only have 1 chance to capture it live.
I've already lost two chances by referring to the Product Specifications. I hope that referring to the current list of 5 possible cards over 8 GB will enable me to make useful recordings on this machine.
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I agree that it's reasonable to expect some 128GB cards on the list of tested media, I'm working on that.
I wasn't aware that the list of tested media at the bottom of the spec page on our website was still showing the Japanese market product names. We always keep the PDF version on the downloads page up-to-date, and that's the link we send to people when they ask about media.
What I do think we need to improve is how the DR-70D behaves when the card is not keeping up. Recording a glitch without letting you know that it happened is the problem that started all this frustration - users are spending a lot of their time pre-qualifying cards that are not on the list. Cards on the list have been extensively tested so we are sure glitches won't happen.
We added erase-format ability to the DR-70D in V1.11 so that if you have a card that started off good enough and slowed down, it can be returned to full speed.
Before an important recording, erase-format is a good step (tested good cards have been verified so that their worst-case performance is still good enough, that's the difference).
Note: Cards added to the tested list will always be cards that you can buy new now.
I'm still skeptical that V1.11 has new problems, I think it's just cards in use are aging and showing their true performance. As we test more class 10 cards, we should start to see how they behave under the workload presented by the DR-70D. I iterate again, audio recording 4 channels or more is completely different to the write data patterns the card manufacturers optimize for. But if a card worked in the DR-680 but not in the DR-70D, that's a data point I would be interested in.
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As I was complaining on Twitter today, I noticed that TascamPro released an update for the DP-24, which fixes clicks and pops. In the user forum, Tascam was said to have tried to blame the SD cards repeatedly, though the problem was solved in July 2015 with a firmware update.
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/dp-24-pops-and-clicks.2349/
I agree that it's reasonable to expect some 128GB cards on the list of tested media, I'm working on that.
I wasn't aware that the list of tested media at the bottom of the spec page on our website was still showing the Japanese market product names. We always keep the PDF version on the downloads page up-to-date, and that's the link we send to people when they ask about media.
What I do think we need to improve is how the DR-70D behaves when the card is not keeping up. Recording a glitch without letting you know that it happened is the problem that started all this frustration - users are spending a lot of their time pre-qualifying cards that are not on the list. Cards on the list have been extensively tested so we are sure glitches won't happen.
We added erase-format ability to the DR-70D in V1.11 so that if you have a card that started off good enough and slowed down, it can be returned to full speed.
Before an important recording, erase-format is a good step (tested good cards have been verified so that their worst-case performance is still good enough, that's the difference).
Note: Cards added to the tested list will always be cards that you can buy new now.
I'm still skeptical that V1.11 has new problems, I think it's just cards in use are aging and showing their true performance. As we test more class 10 cards, we should start to see how they behave under the workload presented by the DR-70D. I iterate again, audio recording 4 channels or more is completely different to the write data patterns the card manufacturers optimize for. But if a card worked in the DR-680 but not in the DR-70D, that's a data point I would be interested in.
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I'm still skeptical that V1.11 has new problems, I think it's just cards in use are aging and showing their true performance. As we test more class 10 cards, we should start to see how they behave under the workload presented by the DR-70D. I iterate again, audio recording 4 channels or more is completely different to the write data patterns the card manufacturers optimize for. But if a card worked in the DR-680 but not in the DR-70D, that's a data point I would be interested in.
How about a card that works in Tascam's DP-24, of which there are DOZENS listed as working? ???
http://tascam-ca.com/product/dp-24/specifications/
Or is 24-channels a completely different data pattern than 4? :facepalm:
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Had a couple of issues running the 70d lastnight. First, I was running on USB power when i powered the deck on. Started up fine, about 5 minutes or so into the show I noticed the deck had turned off and not switched over to the internal AA power for some reason. After turning it back on it wouldnt run on USB power and only the internal power. Corrected this at set break and it ran fine on USB power for the 2nd set. Shows over and I stop the recording (4 channels on external pre amps), I went to turn the unit off and I got the "Cant Save Data" message, figured it wouldnt save the files but they are still there. The unit did reset the track count back to zero for some reason so I have a 22, then a 1 and 2...not sure whats going on here but this makes 2 out of 4 times ive run this deck now ive encountered problems...
I was using a Sandisk 64gb Ultra card which hasnt given me problems, but this doesnt seem to be card related...
I had the same issue at lockn on friday. For three sets my unit reverted to battery power from usb. Each time I reset and the unit continued to revert to battery power. I switched to a different external battery source and the unit performed flawlessly the rest of the weekend. However my dr-40 ran for two days on the same battery that the dr-70 was having issues with.
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Instead of just discussing this ad infinitum, how about everyone start reporting their specific experiences with cards...which some people have already done. Would someone be willing to start a database? Here's at minimum what I'd suggest needs to be reported...
- Card Brand, Model and Size
- Card Age (New, Used)
- Number of channels recorded? (2 or 4)
- Fresh Format Before Use? (Y/N)
- Good file or bad file?...and for bad files the specific issue (digi glitches or card read error)
After a bunch of data is compiled, there should be some patterns/trends show up that will help people out.
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How about a card that works in Tascam's DP-24, of which there are DOZENS listed as working? ???
http://tascam-ca.com/product/dp-24/specifications/
Or is 24-channels a completely different data pattern than 4? :facepalm:
The DP-24 has been around longer, and many of those cards that were previously tested are no longer available, hence there's no customer benefit to testing them now; also the DP-24 maxs out at 32GB, so we've still got to look at 64GB and 128GB SDXC cards. The exFAT format for those cards is in someways slower than the regular FAT32 file system on up to 32GB cards.
(added) The DP-24 also doesn't record natively in WAV format, it uses a direct to SD card sector format. It can export and import from WAV files, but otherwise the read/write access pattern is completely different from the DR-70D.
The DR-680mkII added SDXC support as well, but 32GB SD cards will be the sweet spot for price and performance going forward I think though.
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The DR-680mkII added SDXC support as well, but 32GB SD cards will be the sweet spot for price and performance going forward I think though.
Regarding cards that work recording 6 and 8 channels in the DR680 and DR680MKII:
I used lots of different 32gb cards in my DR680 and never had an issue. I always format in the machine almost before every show, so as to have lots of storage space. I cannot imagine formatting on anything other than the machine I am about to use the card in either. I used 32gb cards Wintec found on Amazon mostly, and 32gb Emtec from Microcenter. No Issues
I moved to the DR680MKII recently and found these great deals for SDXC 64 and 128GB cards at B&H back in July. I have rotated these cards without issue and again always format in the machine, almost always before each show.
Sony 64GB SDXC MEMORY CARD CLASS 10 (40MB/s
B&H# SOSD64GB10Z : Mfr# SF64UYTQMN (on sale for 20.95)
Sony 128GB GB SD MEMRY CARD CLASS 10-40MB/S
B&H# SOSD128GB10Z : Mfr# SF128UYTQMN (on sale for 39.95)
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Instead of just discussing this ad infinitum, how about everyone start reporting their specific experiences with cards...which some people have already done. Would someone be willing to start a database? Here's at minimum what I'd suggest needs to be reported...
- Card Brand, Model and Size
- Card Age (New, Used)
- Number of channels recorded? (2 or 4)
- Fresh Format Before Use? (Y/N)
- Good file or bad file?...and for bad files the specific issue (digi glitches or card read error)
After a bunch of data is compiled, there should be some patterns/trends show up that will help people out.
That sounds like a great idea. I volunteer, since there's already a partial list on the FAQ - we just need to fill in the details on those cards. I'm off tomorrow, so I can throw together a Google survey.
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Instead of just discussing this ad infinitum, how about everyone start reporting their specific experiences with cards...which some people have already done. Would someone be willing to start a database? Here's at minimum what I'd suggest needs to be reported...
- Card Brand, Model and Size
- Card Age (New, Used)
- Number of channels recorded? (2 or 4)
- Fresh Format Before Use? (Y/N)
- Good file or bad file?...and for bad files the specific issue (digi glitches or card read error)
After a bunch of data is compiled, there should be some patterns/trends show up that will help people out.
That sounds like a great idea. I volunteer, since there's already a partial list on the FAQ - we just need to fill in the details on those cards. I'm off tomorrow, so I can throw together a Google survey.
Maybe add Firmware, sample rate and bits?
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Maybe add Firmware, sample rate and bits?
Power source, phantom mode, input settings, source settings, type of gear plugged in, temperature, pressure, time of day, time zone, contents of stomach, total savings and checking account, Tascam Trust Factor, heart rate, pulse, respiration, height, weight, body temperature...
Edit: Phase of moon
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Instead of just discussing this ad infinitum, how about everyone start reporting their specific experiences with cards...which some people have already done. Would someone be willing to start a database? Here's at minimum what I'd suggest needs to be reported...
- Card Brand, Model and Size
- Card Age (New, Used)
- Number of channels recorded? (2 or 4)
- Fresh Format Before Use? (Y/N)
- Good file or bad file?...and for bad files the specific issue (digi glitches or card read error)
After a bunch of data is compiled, there should be some patterns/trends show up that will help people out.
That sounds like a great idea. I volunteer, since there's already a partial list on the FAQ - we just need to fill in the details on those cards. I'm off tomorrow, so I can throw together a Google survey.
Maybe add Firmware, sample rate and bits?
Agreed.
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Maybe add Firmware, sample rate and bits?
Power source, phantom mode, input settings, source settings, type of gear plugged in, temperature, pressure, time of day, time zone, contents of stomach, total savings and checking account, Tascam Trust Factor, heart rate, pulse, respiration, height, weight, body temperature...
Edit: Phase of moon
OK, we get it. You're frustrated and unhappy. Others here aren't satisfied with Tascam's customer service either, but Tom appears to be making an effort, and I don't mind giving him some additional data to work with. A database like this is going to wind up benefiting us anyway. Have a cookie and move on already.
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where is this cookie of which you speak? Do I have to earn TASCAM RESEARCH POINTS to enjoy it?
???
OK, we get it. You're frustrated and unhappy. ...
Have a cookie and move on already.
I really can't tell if you're kidding or being a troll at this point. If you have something constructive to contribute here, fire away. Otherwise, I'm not going to engage any further.
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Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list
Check the PDF list here:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
Note: Cards added to the tested list will always be cards that you can buy new now.
The DR-680mkII added SDXC support as well, but 32GB SD cards will be the sweet spot for price and performance going forward I think though.
It's not the end user's responsibility to see what media functions with the recorder. If you want me to be a beta tester, send me a free deck to test. I paid for mine with the expectation it functions to the stated specs printed in the manual. Tascam advertises the deck works with SD cards (64 MB to 2 GB), SDHC cards (4 to 32 GB) and SDXC cards (48 to 128 GB). I expect my recorder to function with name-brand, non generic cards that meet the minimum specs that are needed to write four channels at 24/96, which is at minimum a true class four card and most assuredly a true class 10. According to Tascam directly and their approved media list, it obviously doesn't work with all of these cards so can I return it to Tascam under warranty and request a refund since it isn't functioning to spec?
Also, I have some comments about the cards Tascam is recommending. Instructing us to buy anything under 16gb to couple with a four channel, 24 bit, 96 khz recorder is laughable and let's just pretend 4, 8 and 16gb cards aren't on the list because quite simply, that's insulting in the year 2015 and not realistic for the majority of applications that this deck is being used for.
So, that leaves us with two 32gb cards that are approved by Tascam and here's their current cost as of 9/22/15 at B&H Photo.
$74.95 - 32gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SDHC™ UHS-Ⅱ Part # SDSDXPB-032G-A46
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1030992-REG/sandisk_sdsdxpb_032g_a46_32gb_extreme_pro_sdhc_uhs_ii.html
Discontinued - 32gb Panasonic SDHC UHS-I (CLASS 10) R:90MB/s Part # RP-SDUC32GAK
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1044453-REG/panasonic_rp_sduc32gak_32gb_sdhc_uhs_i_u3_card.html
Therefore, in reality your recommended list of cards for us real world users of this machine consists of solely one card, that costs $2.34 per gb. Does that sound reasonable to you when the street price of the 70d is $200 and the average name brand, class 10, 32gb card is selling for less than $0.50 per gb?
The solution is simple, instead of jerking us around have the engineers use some precious man hours and update the firmware so the recorder, ya know, records.
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:smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:
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Survey is up. You can find it here (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xDG-UQLwa1sbGcnGounjkqqycPLbqikVcN-TRGESjoY/viewform?usp=send_form), and I also linked to it on the FAQ page.
You may view the spreadsheet of responses here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nBCYtfZ0e9iQkGdq5N9aJwNsiOL90kpZq6tKfNAOf0w/edit?usp=sharing) as users complete the survey.
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Thanks for doing this.
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Survey is up. You can find it here (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xDG-UQLwa1sbGcnGounjkqqycPLbqikVcN-TRGESjoY/viewform?usp=send_form), and I also linked to it on the FAQ page.
You may view the spreadsheet of responses here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nBCYtfZ0e9iQkGdq5N9aJwNsiOL90kpZq6tKfNAOf0w/edit?usp=sharing) as users complete the survey.
Wow, you're a badass! Thanks and awesome! :clapping:
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Making all those fields required might limit your responses.
I don't remember if I fresh formatted...
Also - seems like the last question should be first.
Maybe you really need 2 surveys.
A simple one for successes - and a 2nd, more thorough questioning for failed cards/recordings.
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And just a random thought about "Fresh Formatting"
If you Fresh Format your card - and go out and record - and then go home. Not bothering with the recording right away - and then record again a few days later.
I think those both count as "fresh format" condition.
But if you take the card out - and allow another machine to access files, transfer etc...the next recording will NOT count under the "fresh format" idea.
Ok that's it.
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Thanks for putting that survey together. I submitted 2 responses as I used 2 different cards.
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Making all those fields required might limit your responses.
I don't remember if I fresh formatted...
Also - seems like the last question should be first.
Maybe you really need 2 surveys.
A simple one for successes - and a 2nd, more thorough questioning for failed cards/recordings.
I make these kind of surveys all the time for my department at work, and in my experience if you don't make a question required, people will miss it and you'll have incomplete data.
That said, maybe "fresh format" should instead say "recently formatted" and then I can include a "don't know" response. I don't think accessing the card on the computer will affect the card performance. The purpose of that question was to see if it's a card you've been using for quite a while without formatting or not.
No need for two surveys; that's more cumbersome, I think. If you answer "no" to the problems question it ends the survey. Otherwise it continues and asks you further questions. Not only that, 2 surveys would generate two separate results spreadsheets and then I'd have to merge them later.
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I don't think accessing the card on the computer will affect the card performance.
Some SD* users running W10 will disagree with you. While the card's performance may not have been "technically" affected there certainly were some catastrophic consequences by just accessing the card with W10.
< Sound Devices, not SD cards - edited for clarification >
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I don't think accessing the card on the computer will affect the card performance.
Some SD* users running W10 will disagree with you. While the card's performance may not have been "technically" affected there certainly were some catastrophic consequences by just accessing the card with W10.
< Sound Devices, not SD cards - edited for clarification >
Yes, but it was found to be a problem with Sound Devices recorders writing to a bit that was reserved by Microsoft, although not used until W10. It's a pretty unique situation, but one that has already been discussed at length on this board, Gearslutz, or JWSound.
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I don't think accessing the card on the computer will affect the card performance.
Some SD* users running W10 will disagree with you. While the card's performance may not have been "technically" affected there certainly were some catastrophic consequences by just accessing the card with W10.
< Sound Devices, not SD cards - edited for clarification >
Yes, but it was found to be a problem with Sound Devices recorders writing to a bit that was reserved by Microsoft, although not used until W10. It's a pretty unique situation, but one that has already been discussed at length on this board, Gearslutz, or JWSound.
All true. But it was fixed with a firmware upgrade and the SD engineers got right on the problem, no dallying around. From what I've read in this thread those experiencing the write problems with the 70D wish Tascam's engineers were as responsive as Sound Devices' were when that problem cropped up. The problem was solved because of user input; maybe your survey will provide the common link that allows Tascam's engineers to isolate the cause and provide a fix via a firmware upgrade - dunno. I have no horse in this race but am just an interested observer. If and how fast a resolution is found will be taken into account when I finally decide to go four channel.
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I don't think accessing the card on the computer will affect the card performance.
Some SD* users running W10 will disagree with you. While the card's performance may not have been "technically" affected there certainly were some catastrophic consequences by just accessing the card with W10.
< Sound Devices, not SD cards - edited for clarification >
Yes, but it was found to be a problem with Sound Devices recorders writing to a bit that was reserved by Microsoft, although not used until W10. It's a pretty unique situation, but one that has already been discussed at length on this board, Gearslutz, or JWSound.
All true. But it was fixed with a firmware upgrade and the SD engineers got right on the problem, no dallying around. From what I've read in this thread those experiencing the write problems with the 70D wish Tascam's engineers were as responsive as Sound Devices' were when that problem cropped up. The problem was solved because of user input; maybe your survey will provide the common link that allows Tascam's engineers to isolate the cause and provide a fix via a firmware upgrade - dunno. I have no horse in this race but am just an interested observer. If and how fast a resolution is found will be taken into account when I finally decide to go four channel.
We can certainly hope so, although I never would expect Tascam's service to be anywhere comparable to that of Sound Devices.
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We can certainly hope so, although I never would expect Tascam's service to be anywhere comparable to that of Sound Devices.
why not?
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We can certainly hope so, although I never would expect Tascam's service to be anywhere comparable to that of Sound Devices.
why not?
In a perfect world, yes, every company's support service would be excellent but in the real world-
Tascam manufactures mostly consumer level, inexpensive products - Sound Devices manufactures exclusively professional level, expensive products
Tascam deals with consumers - Sound Devices deals with professionals (some exeptions here but you prob get what I'm saying )
Tascam's product line is enormous and stretches across several platforms - Sound Devices' product line is relatively small and focuses primarily on audio/video professionals, a very niche market
So it makes perfect sense that SD's customer service and product support is better - you pay for it up front.
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This!!!
Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list
Check the PDF list here:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf
Note: Cards added to the tested list will always be cards that you can buy new now.
The DR-680mkII added SDXC support as well, but 32GB SD cards will be the sweet spot for price and performance going forward I think though.
It's not the end user's responsibility to see what media functions with the recorder. If you want me to be a beta tester, send me a free deck to test. I paid for mine with the expectation it functions to the stated specs printed in the manual. Tascam advertises the deck works with SD cards (64 MB to 2 GB), SDHC cards (4 to 32 GB) and SDXC cards (48 to 128 GB). I expect my recorder to function with name-brand, non generic cards that meet the minimum specs that are needed to write four channels at 24/96, which is at minimum a true class four card and most assuredly a true class 10. According to Tascam directly and their approved media list, it obviously doesn't work with all of these cards so can I return it to Tascam under warranty and request a refund since it isn't functioning to spec?
Also, I have some comments about the cards Tascam is recommending. Instructing us to buy anything under 16gb to couple with a four channel, 24 bit, 96 khz recorder is laughable and let's just pretend 4, 8 and 16gb cards aren't on the list because quite simply, that's insulting in the year 2015 and not realistic for the majority of applications that this deck is being used for.
So, that leaves us with two 32gb cards that are approved by Tascam and here's their current cost as of 9/22/15 at B&H Photo.
$74.95 - 32gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SDHC™ UHS-Ⅱ Part # SDSDXPB-032G-A46
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1030992-REG/sandisk_sdsdxpb_032g_a46_32gb_extreme_pro_sdhc_uhs_ii.html
Discontinued - 32gb Panasonic SDHC UHS-I (CLASS 10) R:90MB/s Part # RP-SDUC32GAK
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1044453-REG/panasonic_rp_sduc32gak_32gb_sdhc_uhs_i_u3_card.html
Therefore, in reality your recommended list of cards for us real world users of this machine consists of solely one card, that costs $2.34 per gb. Does that sound reasonable to you when the street price of the 70d is $200 and the average name brand, class 10, 32gb card is selling for less than $0.50 per gb?
The solution is simple, instead of jerking us around have the engineers use some precious man hours and update the firmware so the recorder, ya know, records.
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Discontinued - 32gb Panasonic SDHC UHS-I (CLASS 10) R:90MB/s Part # RP-SDUC32GAK
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1044453-REG/panasonic_rp_sduc32gak_32gb_sdhc_uhs_i_u3_card.html
Amazon, Adorama, Newegg and Panasonic direct show the card as in stock.
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To those doing the SD card survey (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xDG-UQLwa1sbGcnGounjkqqycPLbqikVcN-TRGESjoY/viewform):
Please put the actual model number; not the product line (ex. Ultra Plus, Extreme Pro, etc.) The product line names aren't useful for this; only the actual model number. This will be printed on the card itself, usually on the back. It will be fainter than the main branding and will look like it was put on with a dot matrix or thermal transfer printer.
Here's a guide from SanDisk on where to look (http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/12703/~/product-code-and-serial-numbers-location#sd). If there are multiple codes printed on the card, the one you want will contain the card's capacity somewhere in the string. For example, one respondent to the survey entered SDSDUN-064G-G46 which indicates a 64GB card.
Once again, you can view the survey results here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nBCYtfZ0e9iQkGdq5N9aJwNsiOL90kpZq6tKfNAOf0w/edit#gid=820901072). I updated the FAQ page (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0) to include links to both the survey and the results.
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^ I would still like to know why recording four channels to an SD card is so difficult. There are quite a number of recorders that can do it, some of which can record many more than four channels, and some of which are Tascam products. Just seems like what the Dutch call a "smoesje", which is some sort of lame excuse...
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That isn't threatening legal language. That is a pretty standard email disclaimer.
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Folks:
Why do some of you care more about being right than happy?
My sense is that most people are happy with the feature set, size, and sound of the 70d.
If it only worked with larger, cheaper sd media, everyone would be happy.
Can we please think constructively? Fill out the survey. Communicate nicely with the reps.
It's just like at the venue. They don't have to be nice to tapers. We aren't enough of the market for them to really care.
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Tom,
Ditch the recorder and move on. The only threatening language in any of that correspondance was from you. Totally unneccessary.
The email disclaimer at the bottom is one hudered percent standard in corporate communication.
What's up with you? Get a refund and get a different recorder. Pretty sure it not going to be worth anyone's time to send all this to the Attorney General.
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threatening legal language? hahaha chill out dude, that's the most non-threatening email footer i've ever seen
and the part about you contacting your lawyer? hahah thanks, i needed a solid laugh this morning :yack:
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To those doing the SD card survey (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xDG-UQLwa1sbGcnGounjkqqycPLbqikVcN-TRGESjoY/viewform):
Please put the actual model number; not the product line (ex. Ultra Plus, Extreme Pro, etc.) The product line names aren't useful for this; only the actual model number. This will be printed on the card itself, usually on the back. It will be fainter than the main branding and will look like it was put on with a dot matrix or thermal transfer printer.
Here's a guide from SanDisk on where to look (http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/12703/~/product-code-and-serial-numbers-location#sd). If there are multiple codes printed on the card, the one you want will contain the card's capacity somewhere in the string. For example, one respondent to the survey entered SDSDUN-064G-G46 which indicates a 64GB card.
Once again, you can view the survey results here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nBCYtfZ0e9iQkGdq5N9aJwNsiOL90kpZq6tKfNAOf0w/edit#gid=820901072). I updated the FAQ page (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0) to include links to both the survey and the results.
Been in the hospital for days - lots have happened - WHOA! My recorder problems seem small compared to my health issues!
=========================================================================================
Volt good effort with spreadsheet. I can not see the number you are asking for on the back of the card. If they are there I can not read them. I even put them under a strong light and could see nothing.
Thanks for tumuo coming into the forum.
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Wishing you a full recovery....
I couldn't read the back of my card so I looked it up on the b&h website.
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I had thought all cards had the model number printed in this way, but I only have firsthand experience with a few brands.
If you have a microSD, you're likely to find it faintly printed on the front instead.
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I still haven't discounted this unit for ambisonic recording. Am I right about the preamps still not being gangable? Any word on a firmware update for that?
Regarding the slate function, is the slate tone written directly to the files? I'm thinking this could be used to level match the recordings in post. (If not, how are you doing it now?)
As a side, is it possible Tascam will never release a gang function firmware update because it might cause some sales loss from the DR680? This is the only feature keeping me from the 70d.
Thanks for your thoughts
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I still haven't discounted this unit for ambisonic recording. Am I right about the preamps still not being gangable? Any word on a firmware update for that?
Regarding the slate function, is the slate tone written directly to the files? I'm thinking this could be used to level match the recordings in post. (If not, how are you doing it now?)
As a side, is it possible Tascam will never release a gang function firmware update because it might cause some sales loss from the DR680? This is the only feature keeping me from the 70d.
Thanks for your thoughts
You're correct that they're not gangable, and several of us here have been beating the drum about that being a big thing we'd like to see in a firmware update but don't hold your breath. Tascam certainly could do it if they wanted to, and I don't think that would necessarily pull sales from the 680 as that's an 8-track recorder.
Yes the slate tones are written directly to files, and you can only activate them while recording (another thing we've requested be changed with a firmware update).
As for level matching, it's been established that the gain changes in 2dB steps and that the gain knobs are more "twiddly" than the actual level adjustment. By that I mean if you set the knobs to the same clock position visually, even slightly off, you'll probably be within the same 2dB step for each channel anyway. It does make setting levels a bit less precise feeling, as does the sub-par metering (my biggest firmware request).
What I do is set one channel from the steady hall / background noise, watching the graphic meter and dB numeric display. Then I set the second channel a bit higher, and dial it back until the numeric dB display reads what it did before, confirming that the bar graphs are visually matching as well.
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I'm starting to lose faith in Tascam recorders, I have 2 Tascams, a Dr-05 and a DR-40, both of them have developed faults.
The DR-05 has lost lines on the display making it difficult to read, and the DR-40 has developed noise in one of the channels.
I also have 3 Zoom recorders, H1, H2 and H6, they are all working perfectly and accept any card I put in them.
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I don't know what the percentage is, but my impression is the various zoom models are much less frequently discussed on TS. Even the new f8 seems to have had a limited discussion so far in comparison to the m10, 680, and 70d. The 70d has been priced below the m10 and you get 4 channels. The recordings that have been posted sound good. Metering could be better. I think if you use a good quality card and format it in the 70d, its reliable. I've never used a card bigger than 32g and really don't see the need for a larger capacity versus taking that risk.
I remember when 20g hard drives were considered large and were expensive. 32g on a postage stamp sized card for today's prices amazes me.
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You're correct that they're not gangable, and several of us here have been beating the drum about that being a big thing we'd like to see in a firmware update but don't hold your breath. Tascam certainly could do it if they wanted to, and I don't think that would necessarily pull sales from the 680 as that's an 8-track recorder.
Yes the slate tones are written directly to files, and you can only activate them while recording (another thing we've requested be changed with a firmware update).
As for level matching, it's been established that the gain changes in 2dB steps and that the gain knobs are more "twiddly" than the actual level adjustment. By that I mean if you set the knobs to the same clock position visually, even slightly off, you'll probably be within the same 2dB step for each channel anyway. It does make setting levels a bit less precise feeling, as does the sub-par metering (my biggest firmware request).
What I do is set one channel from the steady hall / background noise, watching the graphic meter and dB numeric display. Then I set the second channel a bit higher, and dial it back until the numeric dB display reads what it did before, confirming that the bar graphs are visually matching as well.
Thank you Voltronic, that was helpful. I'm really tossing up whether I should buy the DR70d or the new 680. Realistically I only need 4 channels, though it's nice to have a couple backup channels. But at an extra $400+...not sure they're that important! :)
Sounds like I could use the slate tone to level match in post. A couple extra steps, but not terribly a pain. Then hope and pray for a gang function update.
I'm still trying to find a sample recording at high gain with the 70d. How noticeable is the noise at high gain in your experience?
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In the testing we did, the high plus setting is the one that had the most noise. I don't think you will need it.
I have the original 680 and find the 70d more convenient and easier to use. The 70d is easily powered with a cell phone battery. It doesn't have the scroll wheel menu thing. More compact. The inability to gang channels is about the biggest hindrance IMO. Unless you plan to spot mic and must have the extra channels, the 70d is certainly use able and may be your best value.
There's a comparison recording posted in the 70d and the new 680 II in the 680 II thread. Very close ...IMO.
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So - I got the digi-glitches on two sets (so far) this weekend.
These cards had worked well - until this outing.
LEXAR Platinum II 16GB SDHC 200x
Running 2 channels at 24/48...
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Just as a public service reminder to people that might be considering buying one of the expensive cards on Tascams list, don't go to ebay or Amazon and try to save yourself money. Ebay and Amazon are both chock full of counterfeit cards. Best way to save money on a card is to buy it on-line through one of the volume discount dealers, like Newegg or B&H.
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Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
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^ I would still like to know why recording four channels to an SD card is so difficult. There are quite a number of recorders that can do it, some of which can record many more than four channels, and some of which are Tascam products. Just seems like what the Dutch call a "smoesje", which is some sort of lame excuse...
I don't know if this is the answer or not, but I'm wondering if the issue might not be limited to only the write speed on the card but also be related to how the unit is designed to handle data transfer.
I don't remember for sure which unit it was, but I once had a recorder that indicated on it's display when the speed of data being created by the recorder exceeded the ability of the device to write. When that happened (somewhat regularly), some kind of a buffer memory kicked in for the data to be stored temporarily while the write process caught up. I figure the card bogged down as it was searching for clean sectors to write onto. I also remembered that, there would be very rare occasions where I'd get a skip in the music. There were no drop-outs or digi-glitches, but there might just be a second or two where it was obvious that the recording process stopped and even though the recorded music was continuous (without drops, pops, or noise) it would instantaneously skip. In those cases, the buffer filled up and, once full, there's just no place to put the data so a second or two of music was lost forever. This was rare though.
Now, I'm not sure how your 'typical' digital recorders designed, but it's becoming apparent from Tomuo's responses and the limited number of acceptable cards, that this DR70D design is far more sensitive to accurate data transfer (perhaps due to data backups or bottlenecks?!?) than other recorders. Maybe the DR70D doesn't even have the capability to buffer data, whereas the others do?!? Since the cards on the list are either very fast or sophisticated cards (the 'extreme pro' cards for example), from Tomuos response above it seems that there's only a handful of cards that can stay ahead of the recorder...or perhaps these card design itself has the buffering capabilities built into the card.
Anyway, thinking this through some, if a typical recorder can buffer data and the DR70D doesn't, that could explain why the same cards work in other units when they don't work in this one.
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Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
Are you saying these cards are good?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html)
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I just completed the survey based on my (positive) experience from Lockn. Recorded 28 hours of 2ch. at 24/48 on a SanDisk micro 32g. NOT recently formatted. V1.11. Anker powered. Haven't heard a hiccup yet.
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Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
Are you saying these cards are good?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html)
Yes, those are the ones.
The DR-70D is certainly buffering several seconds of data to write to the card, but our preliminary tests don't measure for how long the write speed goes under the limit for the cards that don't meet spec.
If it only drops for a brief second, then jumps back to full speed, the buffer would smooth over the problem. So, being overly cautious we don't recommend any card that drops under the minimum speed at any moment. (We can't keep testing it for days on end to see if the write speed dropout is only a second, or it might be 5 seconds in some case)...
We can say with confidence, with the tested OK cards, you won't run into a problem.
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Thanks for the update, Tom. It's good to see that Tascam is still testing cards, and your explanation helps us understand why the recommended media list is so short.
Please know that we really appreciate your being here (at least most of us do). I wish Tascam's customer service over email was as responsive; I still have never gotten a reply from them. Is there any progress on the service email problems?
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Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
Are you saying these cards are good?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html)
Yes, those are the ones.
The DR-70D is certainly buffering several seconds of data to write to the card, but our preliminary tests don't measure for how long the write speed goes under the limit for the cards that don't meet spec.
If it only drops for a brief second, then jumps back to full speed, the buffer would smooth over the problem. So, being overly cautious we don't recommend any card that drops under the minimum speed at any moment. (We can't keep testing it for days on end to see if the write speed dropout is only a second, or it might be 5 seconds in some case)...
We can say with confidence, with the tested OK cards, you won't run into a problem.
OK thanks for that explanation about buffer. Two followup questions, if you don't mind.
First question is, when the write speed falls under the minimum speed during your testing, what is the resulting effect on the resulting recording? Digi-noise? Skipping? I just want to confirm with 100% certainty that what you're seeing when the speed drops too low is the same as what I'm experiencing in my unit. Thanks.
The second question is just the engineer in me that's curious...I think some people have commented in this thread that a certain card works fine in their DR680 but not in the DR70D. Is it a logical conclusion then that there's more buffering memory in the 680 and that's why they're not seeing the same issues on the 680?
It might make sense that there's more buffering in the 680 since it's got more channels...but it's still strange to think that a 680 writing 6 or 8 channels might not have an issue writing data when the DR70D does.
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OK thanks for that explanation about buffer. Two followup questions, if you don't mind.
First question is, when the write speed falls under the minimum speed during your testing, what is the resulting effect on the resulting recording? Digi-noise? Skipping? I just want to confirm with 100% certainty that what you're seeing when the speed drops too low is the same as what I'm experiencing in my unit. Thanks.
As far as I'm aware, cards that don't meet this threshold are dropped from further testing, so I don't know what the end-world result is of continuing to record in this case.
We are looking at improving this, though I'm not privy to the potential details.
The second question is just the engineer in me that's curious...I think some people have commented in this thread that a certain card works fine in their DR680 but not in the DR70D. Is it a logical conclusion then that there's more buffering memory in the 680 and that's why they're not seeing the same issues on the 680?
Unfortunately I don't know, I've not seem the design docs for either products, and no other cases of increased recording failure has been reported so far, so there's no failure report doc yet. Given that the DR-680 does more channels to start with, it makes sense that it would have a bigger buffer though.
Circumstantial evidence though still points at the card having slowed down since being used previously. If someone has a card from that exact test, they should do an erase format and try it again, and let us know what card it was (if it was on the DR-680 tested media list).
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I just completed the survey based on my (positive) experience from Lockn. Recorded 28 hours of 2ch. at 24/48 on a SanDisk micro 32g. NOT recently formatted. V1.11. Anker powered. Haven't heard a hiccup yet.
report back when you have done that with 4 ch please
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Ok guys. I give up. It's obvious where this is going with Tascam. I can't even get a straight answer to the simplest questions without him falling back to the stock response.
Clearly the only thing we're gonna get out of tascam is to use approved cards and then when those fail they're going to fall back on the response that the approved cards slowed down strategy and tell you to buy a new card.
Time for me to throw this piece of shit recorder in the garbage. I can't play this game of hoping my recording came out ok every time I use it. Especially when tascam has no interest in even helping answer some simple questions to help give me some more information to help me find some silver linings in this situation. Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past. Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?. That's laughable.
Anyway, I have no choice but to buy specific cards, but what happens after i start getting errors with those?. Clearly tascam is then going to say it's old so buy a new one. I'm not going to pay this game of feeding new cards to this thing only to discover those don't work and getting excuses back about how the reason is that they slowed down.
Sorry tascam, im the judge and jury and, as of the above response to my simple questions, you blew it with your crappy response to this issue.
Conclusion of this for me is that i wouldn't give this piece of shit to someone else because it's unreliable. Tascam will NEVER see another dollar of my business. I'm glad it only cost me $200.
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Ok guys. I give up. It's obvious where this is going with Tascam. I can't even get a straight answer to the simplest questions without him falling back to the stock response.
Clearly the only thing we're gonna get out of tascam is to use approved cards and then when those fail they're going to fall back on the response that the approved cards slowed down strategy and tell you to buy a new card.
Time for me to throw this piece of shit recorder in the garbage. I can't play this game of hoping my recording came out ok every time I use it. Especially when tascam has no interest in even helping answer some simple questions to help give me some more information to help me find some silver linings in this situation. Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past. Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?. That's laughable.
Anyway, I have no choice but to buy specific cards, but what happens after i start getting errors with those?. Clearly tascam is then going to say it's old so buy a new one. I'm not going to pay this game of feeding new cards to this thing only to discover those don't work and getting excuses back about how the reason is that they slowed down.
Sorry tascam, im the judge and jury and, as of the above response to my simple questions, you blew it with your crappy response to this issue.
Conclusion of this for me is that i wouldn't give this piece of shit to someone else because it's unreliable. Tascam will NEVER see another dollar of my business. I'm glad it only cost me $200.
Jeez, calm down. You're starting to sound like someone else here. Hasn't there been enough flipping out and hyperbole around here the past week already? Go back and read your response again. To me, Tom responded to your recent questions as completely as he could given the knowledge he personally has. That response wasn't the complete one you were looking for - deal with it. One representative from a company replies that he doesn't know the answer to your engineering question, and you go full out nuclear? You must be fun at parties.
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Voltronic - your peace keeping is admirable...but Im with tonedeaf on this...I think his take is more reason than rant.
It seems like TASCAM is setting the table for more excuses (your approved card is "worn out")
I'm going to have to go back to my friggin JB3...until something gets ironed out...
Has anyone found any reports of the approved cards failing? (yet)
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So what's everybody doing about the card corrupted recordings?
I'm getting 8 or so spikes per recording (in a 90 minute set for example)
They sound like a CD skip or DAT glitch - and are identical on both channels
So far I've been using Audacity - zooming in on the spike and selecting from the last good sample to the next good one - and just cutting it out.
For the most part, this seems pretty transparent - at least with rock music. Other material may be more revealing.
Im pretty sure some music is being missed in the spike - and not just an interruption.
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Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past. Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?. That's laughable.
I don't think it is stupid of you at all, and I think your irritation is justified. Why wouldn't you expect the recorder to operate as advertised? It has seemed kind of obvious to me, for a while, that Tascam was "excusifying" here, and I posted as much. The R44 came out in 2008, or maybe 2009, and can record four channels to SD. Tascam released the DR680 a couple of years later, maybe 2010, and it can record even more channels (also kind of a rocky roll-out there, though). Sure, it seems that most recorders dislike the occasional card, but I think that the majority of cards of the proper size/speed should work. If not, that is clearly a case of defective design.
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I posted yesterday that my Lockn recordings (2ch 24/48, etc.) appeared good. Check that. At least one file corrupt.
Willndmb, if this data gathering exercise is for 4ch users only, please advise.
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What seems significant is the way this recorder has gone from flavour of the month through to rant of the month in a shortish period of time. That does make one think that something has changed, presumably in the firmware. The notion that it's down to the cards getting older just doesn't seem likely. We've all been using memory card multitrack recorders for long enough to know what limitations to expect and what degree of reliability is reasonable.
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What seems significant is the way this recorder has gone from flavour of the month through to rant of the month in a shortish period of time. That does make one think that something has changed, presumably in the firmware. The notion that it's down to the cards getting older just doesn't seem likely. We've all been using memory card multitrack recorders for long enough to know what limitations to expect and what degree of reliability is reasonable.
That's exactly correct. I used the recorder quite a bit without problem when I first got it. Then I installed the latest firmware and I had a couple of glitches, but since this was a new problem that was unreported at the time, I thought the issue was with my USB cable. So I sold the unit when I decided to buy the Zoom F8 but the new owner immediately had problems with the cards he was using. After he tried to suss through the issue and got nowhere for about a month, I issued him a refund in good conscience because there's no way I'm selling junk to another ts.com member. Now I have a recorder that I have no confidence in that's sitting on the shelf with a 0% chance of being used, unless the company that made it tries to actually team up with and help its customers sort through and find the root of this problem to solve this issue, instead of basically bailing out behind stock answers that are IMHO obviously designed to minimize any accountability or acknowledgement of potential fault in design. I could care less about figuring out if Tascam screwed up...I just want a functioning, reliable recorder and right now Tascam isn't acknowledging that an issue even exists.
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I still haven't discounted this unit for ambisonic recording. Am I right about the preamps still not being gangable? Any word on a firmware update for that?
Regarding the slate function, is the slate tone written directly to the files? I'm thinking this could be used to level match the recordings in post. (If not, how are you doing it now?)
As a side, is it possible Tascam will never release a gang function firmware update because it might cause some sales loss from the DR680? This is the only feature keeping me from the 70d.
Thanks for your thoughts
Regardless of SD card issues, which presumably will be ironed out eventually, as an ambisonic mic user recording raw A-format output from the mic, I cannot recommend choosing a recorder with gangable gains strongly enough!! The DR-680 is a far better fit for an A-format output ambisonic mic, trust me on this.
An acceptable alternative is to use a four channel preamp which provides global gain control across all channels while keeping the relative interchannel gains equal, eliminating the need to adjust gain on the recorder at all, once it's input sensitivity has been calibrated to match the preamp's output level and the input sensitivity across all channels have been adjusted to be as close as possible to each other. And after doing that you might consider removing the input level adjustment knobs from the recorder to prevent accidental adjustment which will knock it out of calibration.
Yes, recorded test tones can work for gain matching adjustment on the computer later, but it's a PITA! I do that occasionally when I need to use the R44 instead of the DR-680. The recorded tones need to be made at the end of the recording session, while the channel gains on the recorder are still set exactly the same as they were during the session, preferably immediately afterwards. You can record tones beforehand, but that only works if you don't need to make ANY gain adjustment on the recorder at all while at the gig. If you need to adjust a few times during the gig, you need separate test tones across all tracks for each adjustment.
And, unless the internally generated tone provided by the DR-70D is injected prior to input gain adjustment on each channel (meaning the tone level needs to be affected by the input gain adjustment on each channel), the reference tone will need to be provided by an external source. So if you plan to use the internal tone for gain matching, first confirm that is the case.
But again, use a DR-680 (mark I or II doesn't matter) and your recording life will be much simpler and more enjoyable.
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I haven't been following the thread closely, so forgive me for the suggestion if it's been covered, but has anyone tried reverting to the previous firmware which was widely in use before the problems started happening? ..assuming it can be reloaded.
Not sure what was addressed with the most recent firmware, but it couldn't have been more critical than reliable card writing.
Steve, you may be the obvious one to try doing this, since you aren't currently relying on the machine for regular recording and have less to loose if it bricks.
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Im still on the original firmware - and getting the glitches.
I've recorded 4 channels on these cards before without problem - and now have trouble with 2 channels.
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I posted yesterday that my Lockn recordings (2ch 24/48, etc.) appeared good. Check that. At least one file corrupt.
Willndmb, if this data gathering exercise is for 4ch users only, please advise.
no its not for 4 channel only however, a lot of the issues are at 4 channel recording so imo i would like to hear if good or bad results happen on 4 channels vs 2 as well.
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Im still on the original firmware - and getting the glitches.
What version is your firmware? Versions 1.02 and 1.10 are still available for download on the Tascam site. Current version is 1.11.
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I haven't been following the thread closely, so forgive me for the suggestion if it's been covered, but has anyone tried reverting to the previous firmware which was widely in use before the problems started happening? ..assuming it can be reloaded.
Not sure what was addressed with the most recent firmware, but it couldn't have been more critical than reliable card writing.
Steve, you may be the obvious one to try doing this, since you aren't currently relying on the machine for regular recording and have less to loose if it bricks.
They person that I refunded for the unit I bought back tried all of the firmware and reported that it didn't resolve the issue.
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
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Im still on the original firmware - and getting the glitches.
What version is your firmware? Versions 1.02 and 1.10 are still available for download on the Tascam site. Current version is 1.11.
Mine says - System Version: 1.00 0037
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
Mine came from B&H - but early, before the special.
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OK thanks for that explanation about buffer. Two followup questions, if you don't mind.
First question is, when the write speed falls under the minimum speed during your testing, what is the resulting effect on the resulting recording? Digi-noise? Skipping? I just want to confirm with 100% certainty that what you're seeing when the speed drops too low is the same as what I'm experiencing in my unit. Thanks.
As far as I'm aware, cards that don't meet this threshold are dropped from further testing, so I don't know what the end-world result is of continuing to record in this case.
We are looking at improving this, though I'm not privy to the potential details.
Thanks for the response. You said in your response that Tascam is looking to improve. From a customer perspective, if you're looking to improve, start by providing answers to the logical questions users have posed in this thread. The most important question that hasn't been answered, but has been asked repeatedly is, why do cards work in other units with the same data transfer requirements, but they don't work in this unit? The response you provide is simply that users need to use a card on a small list. But in responding this way, you haven't provided users with any level of confidence that this answer is going to resolve the issue. I don't want to spend another $70 or $80 on a card and go through another month, two or three of doing what amounts to Tascam's beta testing with possible similar results only to find out that this is basically just a stall until these units are beyond their warranty period.
If you find this response to be confrontational or non thankful to your continued response to questions, it's not intended to be. It's the reality that I'm faced with by the lack of legitimate responses you've provided to the efforts people have made here to get to the bottom of this issue...basically on Tascam's behalf.
The second question is just the engineer in me that's curious...I think some people have commented in this thread that a certain card works fine in their DR680 but not in the DR70D. Is it a logical conclusion then that there's more buffering memory in the 680 and that's why they're not seeing the same issues on the 680?
Unfortunately I don't know, I've not seem the design docs for either products, and no other cases of increased recording failure has been reported so far, so there's no failure report doc yet. Given that the DR-680 does more channels to start with, it makes sense that it would have a bigger buffer though.
Circumstantial evidence though still points at the card having slowed down since being used previously. If someone has a card from that exact test, they should do an erase format and try it again, and let us know what card it was (if it was on the DR-680 tested media list).
I'm confused...and frankly somewhat bothered by your response. On the one hand you're saying you don't know the answer about buffering. I assume you must know something about these units or you wouldn't be responding. So for this answer, you aren't tech saavy enough to give me a straight answer, or even suggest that you'll try to find out the answer, so you just say 'I don't know'.
On the other hand, you're tech saavy enough about these units to tell me that there's circumstantial evidence for cards slowing down as the reason for issues. First off, what circumstantial evidence is there? The DR70D has only been out for a few months and nobody that I know of has reported chronic issues with the 680 or any other multi-track recorder having problems with cards going bad with use. Sure, it happens, but it's not chronic, so your explanation just doesn't hold water as an excuse for the DR70D, which has only been on the market for a short time. So what is this evidence you speak of?
The only circumstantial evidence I know of is being compiled by this group in a database.
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
I bought two of them under the $200 deal. One for myself and one for another person (who doesn't have a credit card). The purchases for both were from B&H and were one day apart. Mine has problems, his doesn't. :facepalm:
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I'm out of here.
If anybody has glitch problems with cards on the tested list, please contact me directly.
The advice about slowed down cards was for cards not on the list. Tested cards are good even when slowed down.
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
I bought two of them under the $200 deal. One for myself and one for another person (who doesn't have a credit card). The purchases for both were from B&H and were one day apart. Mine has problems, his doesn't. :facepalm:
Presumbly they filled orders from existing inventory that could have been produced at different times. There's a 7 digit label on the bottom of mine. I have no idea if trying to match up those digits will lead to anything useful or if it's a wild goose chase.
My interpretation of tomuo's "tested cards are good even when slowed down" is the tested cards should work. If they don't, then a warranty claim would seem to be in order.
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Ok - here's something interesting...not sure I've seen this mentioned.
I was just looking at some of the files on my card.
I recorded a show Aug 2 - headliner set was 4 channel - internals and a pair of condensers.
Went home and transferred the show to my PC. Recordings were perfect.
This weekend - I used the card again for a few sets a festival - just 2 channels.
All those sets have glitches - and now the set I recorded in August - also has glitches!
I went to my other PC - and the files I transferred right after the Aug show are clean.
All subsequent files have glitches - and now the pre glitch files have glitches!
WTF?
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Interesting you say that Life In Rewind. I just posted about a bad recording from Lockn. Funny thing is... my girlfriend said we listened to that set once and it was fine. Yesterday, all shitty.
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I'm out of here.
If anybody has glitch problems with cards on the tested list, please contact me directly.
The advice about slowed down cards was for cards not on the list. Tested cards are good even when slowed down.
Classy.
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I'm out of here.
If anybody has glitch problems with cards on the tested list, please contact me directly.
The advice about slowed down cards was for cards not on the list. Tested cards are good even when slowed down.
Classy.
Not unexpected considering the reception he got. While he wasn't able to answer all the questions posed, he did provide us with more info than we had. I think it is unfortuate that he has now bailed, but I don't blame him in the least.
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Has anyone reported similar problems with the DR-60D when recording 4 channels , and is that model fussy about cards ?
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Agreed, pohaku. Frustration is one thing, disrespect is another.
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I'm out of here.
If anybody has glitch problems with cards on the tested list, please contact me directly.
The advice about slowed down cards was for cards not on the list. Tested cards are good even when slowed down.
Classy.
Not unexpected considering the reception he got. While he wasn't able to answer all the questions posed, he did provide us with more info than we had. I think it is unfortuate that he has now bailed, but I don't blame him in the least.
Nonsense. The issue is that the DR70D doesn't work right and Tascam is doing a dance around customer concerns, not that Tomuo was treated poorly here. How he was treated is, frankly, irrelvant. We shouldn't have to 'stroke' a company rep in order to get them to address a collective group of people expressing LEGITIMATE concerns. And any anger expressed here is justified, though I agree that the lawsuit threat was crazy.
He bailed because, when his responses were challenged, he couldn't/wouldn't provide a legitimate response other than their stock excuse, which he has chosen not to provide responses to questions for why it holds water. This happens all the time in the PZ when someone is challenged and they can't provide a valid retort. They bail instead. It's the internet way of getting control when you are starting to lose a discussion. If you can't stand the heat, then don't step in the fire but don't quit when the going gets a little rough.
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Tascam's product shits the bed and when the rep who was around trying to provide some answers doesn't have any valid answers he bails.
Looking at Taperssection pile ons from the past this discussion isn't even a blip on the radar. No one insulted the guy. If you are going to represent the company then have some answers. His answers were the standard non answer. I work for a huge corporation and I understand the concept of risk management. I wouldn't be surprised if his leadership told him to get out of the discussion as the problems with this machine get worse and worse and the likelihood of a fix seems distant.
Use the cards on the list. That's the answer.
Unfortunate...I've used several recorders from Tascam and use a DR60d presently. Works great. But the DR70d is a dud.
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Use the cards on the list. That's the answer.
Unfortunate...I've used several recorders from Tascam and use a DR60d presently. Works great. But the DR70d is a dud.
That's the bottom line. If these cards all work, then this issue goes away. I'd be a happy camper.
My concern right now is that the good cards list is risk management, as you say, as a stall tactic to get many of these units out past warranty. And even if the 'list' cards fail and Tascam considers a warranty claim, they have the fallback for rejecting replacement under warranty that the card degrades over time which Tomuo has already set the stage for. So you have to feed it new cards all the time. That's a different issue than the card simply bogging down during the testing phase.
Hopefully the good cards list is the only answer needed. I'm skeptical.
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I sure hope it's just a card issue. Mine ran fine with the free Sandisk 8 GB microsd that came from B&H with the promo. When I did the firmware update to V1.10, it crapped out bad. The first 30 minutes of the set are great and the rest of the set is all skips constantly to the end. It did the same thing for the 2nd set starting at 32 minutes till the end of the show. I put a new 16 GB SD class 4 card in and it has not messed up again. I've run it 4 times since with no issues. I am getting a approved card and hope all this will be behind us. My DR-680 still has the original SD card that I put in it almost 5 years ago and I have never had any problems with any of my recordings.
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
I bought two of them under the $200 deal. One for myself and one for another person (who doesn't have a credit card). The purchases for both were from B&H and were one day apart. Mine has problems, his doesn't. :facepalm:
Was the firmware upgraded the same on both after being purchased?
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Pulled out the box where I bought a 70d (still new in the box) as part of the $199 special that went on a while back to see what card was in there. It's a Sandisk Ultra microSDHC UHS-1 8 GB card which I've never used.
Got me to wondering...I had a 70d from another seller and had no issues with it at all. I haven't touched the one I got as part of the $199 special to know if it's good or bad.
Tonedeaf and others having card issues, did you get your 70d as part of the $199 special? Is there something about a particular production batch of these 70ds that we ought to be looking into?
Maybe do another survey on this detail?
I bought two of them under the $200 deal. One for myself and one for another person (who doesn't have a credit card). The purchases for both were from B&H and were one day apart. Mine has problems, his doesn't. :facepalm:
Was the firmware upgraded the same on both after being purchased?
Yes. His hasn't had a problem since the beginning with original or updated firmware. Mine worked properly in the beginning. I can't say for sure whether the onset of the issue coincided with when the firmware was updated. Sorry, I know this isn't helping, but at the time I updated the firmware I didn't have a reason to make any mental notes about whether or not there were potentially firmware related issues because at that point I didn't realize there was a generic problem. As I mentioned earlier, when I first noticed this issue of skipping data, I thought my issue was that the USB connector was loose and the unit was cycling between the USB battery and the internals.
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FWIW, I posted an inquiry about this over on GS. I haven't seen similar reports of problems over there so I thought I would ask. The thread is in the Remote Possibilities and Location Recording forum.
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Way to many reports of failure!! My DR680 was never picky or had this problem. To blame it on SD cards is BS. I have NEVER had a deck not play nice with a quality SD card. Tascam should update the firmware so it works with a MUCH larger range of SD cards. If that is even the issue :facepalm:
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Is this the first truly unreliable flash deck? I'm not counting Zoom prior to the f8. I can't think of one. Quirks, yes. The Fostex has a funky battery setup to some. The 661 won't play nice with some mics. But this thing.....feel bad for those who bought. Come to think of it, the deck that seems to have the most issues is probably the p2.
Agree with Cooker, Tomuo was treated fine....some other manufacturers or retailers in the past....not so much. Saw nothing disrespectful, and his answers were canned.
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Can anyone confirm they have heard glitches =prior to file transfer= ???
i.e. - you go home, play the files back on the DR-70D and heard digi-noise
Im wondering if the files are being corrupted in transfer...
Asking since I've had previously perfect recordings get corrupted after (seemingly) making another recording on the card.
There was that win10 issue that had CF transfers being corrupted - maybe a Windows update has brought a similar issue to SD cards?
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Can anyone confirm they have heard glitches =prior to file transfer= ???
i.e. - you go home, play the files back on the DR-70D and heard digi-noise
Im wondering if the files are being corrupted in transfer...
Asking since I've had previously perfect recordings get corrupted after (seemingly) making another recording on the card.
There was that win10 issue that had CF transfers being corrupted - maybe a Windows update has brought a similar issue to SD cards?
That win10 issue was Sound Devices specific because of how they were writing to the card, but that's an interesting idea.
One possible test could be that people who have noise issues try that card in another recorder (where you didn't have problems), transfer it and compare? There may be too many variables there, but possibly worth a shot.
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Im still on the original firmware - and getting the glitches.
What version is your firmware? Versions 1.02 and 1.10 are still available for download on the Tascam site. Current version is 1.11.
Mine says - System Version: 1.00 0037
Thats what mine is as well. I'd not seen anyone else list it, and was wondering how i ended up with the odd one.
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Im wondering if the files are being corrupted in transfer...
Could this be related to some kind of USB synch-ing issue? I have an external HD that doesn't synch properly sometimes (i.e. files playing glitchy, checksums erroring), but will work after replugging it in. I seem to recall my erroneous recordings on the DR-70D (2-channel, btw) being glitchy playing directly from the recorder, but that memory is fuzzy and the files are long deleted from the card.
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Has anyone had problems with an approved card?
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I have never updated firmware, so I have the "original" firmware still loaded.
I'm using a SanDisk Ultra 16GB (15mb/s, Class 4) card.
I've only used the DR-70 a few times.. twice in the field.. a number of times at home.
I have not had any problems that I know of.
I'm using original firmware that was loaded when I bought new from B&H during their $200 "bundle" sale.
System Version: 1.01 0044
I've filled the 16GB card that I've mentioned with about 11GB worth of live streaming audio from satellite radio > 3.5mm stereo input. And the remaining time left on the card (approx. 4-5GB) with 4 channels of P48 mikes plugged directly into the XLR inputs with P48 on. So, the card is full and has not been removed from deck. All recording done at 24bit/48kHz.
All recordings seem to be clean upon playback on the deck.
That's all I know so far.
edit to add: I'm willing to run some tests with my current card and firmware if anyone has any suggestions.
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Can anyone confirm they have heard glitches =prior to file transfer= ???
i.e. - you go home, play the files back on the DR-70D and heard digi-noise
Im wondering if the files are being corrupted in transfer...
Asking since I've had previously perfect recordings get corrupted after (seemingly) making another recording on the card.
There was that win10 issue that had CF transfers being corrupted - maybe a Windows update has brought a similar issue to SD cards?
Have heard glitch on right after show through headphone out of DR70.
I have only heard it on an unreformatted card, and a failing card (unusable in anything, dead)
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Some thoughts on recent posts here:
1. I agree that Tom's abrupt "I'm outta here" was premature, and I have PM'd him politely asking for him to return, letting him know that his exit makes it seem that he was not interested in exploring alternative solutions / explanations to the problems users are seeing.
2. Could some of the ire directed at Tom's responses be a result of pent-up frustration over past bad experiences with Tascam customer / tech support? I can certainly relate - I still can't get any sort of reply from their official email contacts, but I have tried not to take it out on a rep that appears in an online forum. Tom was the one positive face of Tascam customer support I have dealt with, which is why I was trying to keep the peace.
3. While those who are having problems understandably don't want to throw more money at the situation, the fact remains that there is a recommended media list plus a few other cards that Tom posted here recently. To my knowledge, no one has yet reported a problem using one of those cards. Unless and until that happens, you really have little ammunition against the "lazy" or "stock" response of "use the cards on the list".
4. Several people have said it before, but unless you bought cards at an absolutely reputable retailer then you don't really know if you got what you paid for. Most know to avoid eBay, but I won't buy memory cards on Amazon either, as there are many fakes that are hard to spot. If the 70D is more "picky" about cards than other recorders, one of these rebrands might be showing its true colors here even if it works fine in another recorder. The write buffer and how it may be smaller than other multichannel recorders may be significant here.
5. Along those lines, I don't think it's very useful to keep stating that "X card worked great in X recorder but not in the 70D." Some things are compatible with some things, while not with other things. Rehashing this point does nothing to help us towards finding a solution.
6. It will be interesting if Pohaku gets any responses in the GS thread he started. I'm especially interested to hear from Jim Williams in particular, as he has been beating the drum for the 70D loudly and often anytime the subject of recommended recorders comes up. As he said, there have been no complaints there, and I've seen none on JWSound either (but this recorder is probably too low-rent for those guys to see much use there).
7. The idea of testing a possible transfer issue seems to be worth pursuing. I have found with my unit that it is somewhat picky about USB cables - the heavy Monoprice cables with the ferrite cores drop the connection for me mid-transfer, but other cheaper cables work solidly 100% of the time. When I have had a cable drop the connection, it never caused any problems with the files - the files simply didn't transfer, and I changed the cable and all was well.
If Snowman or anyone else wants to test transfer errors, I would suggest:
- Listen to files pre-transfer to confirm presence / lack of errors on original file.
- Transfer via recorder (card still inserted).
- Transfer a second copy via card reader (card removed).
- If any errors pop up post-transfer, try the above again with a different USB cable or card reader.
- If any previously-good files (played back fine on recorder) developed errors after transfer, did those same errors then appear on the original file on card itself? The curse rebounded...
- Tell us what operating system you're running.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
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So far 65 views and no responses on GS.
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Examining the files on my other 16GB Lexar Platinum II card - these are a mix of 44 and 48 stereo files.
The card is nearly full - less than 2GB left.
Some 4 channel...some 2 channel. All perfect.
And I'm certain I transferred some of these via card reader - and then put the card back in, and recorded again, later (without reformatting) - and subsequent sets are ok.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea
You guys can't bitch about this offer
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
Solid.
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As an interested outside observer I'm curious if those of you who bought your DR70s from B&H (during the special or not) receive an included card which wasn't on the tested&approved list?
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea!
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea!
Agreed - that's the same thing the Microsoft representative on GS and JWSound offered when people were having Sound Devices / Win10 card issues.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
I will check to see if I have a card that I haven't reformatted. If I'd do, I am happy to send one to you. I have a lot of examples of small clip files that haven't been processed and could be easily sent, if that is helpful.
As background... I purchased a 70D after seeing Jim Williams rave about the value. Mine was purchased from BH in April of this year and I used it sporadically for a couple of months leading up to a major project in Jul and August. The firmware was upgraded to 1.10 after I purchased.
I purchased a couple of Lexar 16GB cards and used them without incident for 15 days of intense dialogue capture of a local film production. Total of approximately 900 files of clips ranging from 1 minute to several minutes. Everything worked perfectly and I was over the moon at the quality I was able to deliver to the project. During the last two days of production I started experiencing glitches. This was a couple of days after I upgraded the firmware to latest version. Perhaps a coincidence... I finished the production, sometimes having to call for a scene reshoot because of glitchy audio. I lost confidence in reliability and started checking every file I recorded between shots. I missed some of the longer files that glitches in the end because I couldn't hold up production...
After reformatting cards in the machine and continuing to have problems I came to the conclusion the 70D must be defective. Considering the cost I ordered another in early August to finish some other projects. When I received it I immediately upgraded firmware to the latest version and checked the machine using the same cards I had used earlier. No problems, so I went to the next shoot with confidence and a plan to send the original machine back for warranty repair. First file I recorded on the new shoot was good. Second file was also good. Third file was completely corrupted.... I was devastated and ready to chuck them both and buy another product.
The one thing I couldn't understand was that Jim W was still raving about his on GS. In doing some more research I stumbled on this forum and the light bulb started glowing when folks started talking about different cards. I had thought that buying a high quality card form a reputable dealer was the smart thing to do. Perhaps I was wrong.
I have gone back to using the card that BH sent with my original machine and have not experience any trouble with it in either machine. I am starting to get my confidence back, but won't be fully satisfied until TASCAM comes to a conclusion of why the 70d is so fussy about the cards it is using.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea
You guys can't bitch about this offer
No, I can't bitch about this offer, but something like this should have/could have been the response from Day One.
But yeah, the bottom line is if we can work together (Tascam and customers with glitchy units) to solve this issue, then I'm OK with Tascam...stuff happens. So far, that hasn't happened, but this is a good sign.
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A few thoughts in response. First, I agree with many of your points...I've deleted those from my response since 'I agree' posts are a waste.
Some thoughts on recent posts here:
1. I agree that Tom's abrupt "I'm outta here" was premature, and I have PM'd him politely asking for him to return, letting him know that his exit makes it seem that he was not interested in exploring alternative solutions / explanations to the problems users are seeing.
Thanks, it's great to have his input. My own posts here haven't been an effort to run him off, but at the same time when there are unanswered questions it can be a frustrating interaction...we've seen that here. As self appointed moderator of this thread and the 70D subject in general, I again applaud you. However, you also need to let people express their thoughts and opinions without overlaying your moderated thoughts on top of them, but I do understand that you have a vested interest in this as well since you own a 70D, so that's not always easy. (Incidentally, I'm a FANTASTIC party guest. ;))
2. Could some of the ire directed at Tom's responses be a result of pent-up frustration over past bad experiences with Tascam customer / tech support? I can certainly relate - I still can't get any sort of reply from their official email contacts, but I have tried not to take it out on a rep that appears in an online forum. Tom was the one positive face of Tascam customer support I have dealt with, which is why I was trying to keep the peace.
I totally understand why you were trying to keep the peace and agree that having Tom here is a definite plus. But remember that he's Tascam's rep and on the other end are alot of frustrated users. Moderating between the two is a tightrope walk right there.
Pent up frustration with Tascam? That's not the case for me. The majority of the angst I see is simply confusion/nonacceptance regarding the logic of his responses. The response has been that cards aren't fast enough and slow down over time, but that just doesn't make sense given that the cards work in other units. Clearly the throughput of data is fine on a DR680 that has 8 channels, so using the same card, the throughput of data on a unit with 4 channels can't keep up, even sometimes when it's only being used in 2 channel mode? It's not logical...so frankly, lacking a technical explanation for what's happening that accounts for this phenomenon, I just really have a hard time believing that this is simply a card issue. I attempted to find out if buffering was at the source to perhaps help better understand why the card speed response made more sense, but that didn't go anywhere.
4. Several people have said it before, but unless you bought cards at an absolutely reputable retailer then you don't really know if you got what you paid for. Most know to avoid eBay, but I won't buy memory cards on Amazon either, as there are many fakes that are hard to spot. If the 70D is more "picky" about cards than other recorders, one of these rebrands might be showing its true colors here even if it works fine in another recorder. The write buffer and how it may be smaller than other multichannel recorders may be significant here.
I'm not sure how write buffer's work, but I assume it's analogous to 'cache' memory on a hard drive which allows hard drives to operate alot faster because the drive doesn't have to spin idle while the computer searches for free sectors to write to...the computer writes to the cache memory instead. Perhaps it's just another memory chip that fills up with data as it bottlenecks while the unit is searching for free sectors on the SD card.
5. Along those lines, I don't think it's very useful to keep stating that "X card worked great in X recorder but not in the 70D." Some things are compatible with some things, while not with other things. Rehashing this point does nothing to help us towards finding a solution.
I both agree and disagree. You're right...this point has already been made and there's probably nothing new to discover here. But to me, this is pretty much the whole reason people are balking at the 'stock response' being given. Refer above to my comments about how, without additional explanation, that it's not logical if the data throughput on much larger capacity units is fine and this one isn't. All Tascam needs to do is provide a logical explanation and answer the 'why' question and people will back off. People aren't stupid (especially here where lots of us are technical minded people that like to know how things work) and right now, without additional information, the responses being provided aren't jiving with logic.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
I have a Lexar 16GB 1000x SD HCII 150MB/s I can send to you. I will send info to email supplied.
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I have a Lexar 16GB 1000x SD HCII 150MB/s I can send to you. I will send info to email supplied.
That's good. I do think that it's going to be important for us to work with Tascam on this one with as much grace as can be mustered - who else is there to work with?
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I have never updated firmware, so I have the "original" firmware still loaded.
I'm using a SanDisk Ultra 16GB (15mb/s, Class 4) card.
I've only used the DR-70 a few times.. twice in the field.. a number of times at home.
I have not had any problems that I know of.
I'm using original firmware that was loaded when I bought new from B&H during their $200 "bundle" sale.
System Version: 1.01 0044
I've filled the 16GB card that I've mentioned with about 11GB worth of live streaming audio from satellite radio > 3.5mm stereo input. And the remaining time left on the card (approx. 4-5GB) with 4 channels of P48 mikes plugged directly into the XLR inputs with P48 on. So, the card is full and has not been removed from deck. All recording done at 24bit/48kHz.
All recordings seem to be clean upon playback on the deck.
That's all I know so far.
edit to add: I'm willing to run some tests with my current card and firmware if anyone has any suggestions.
Have exactly the same deal from B & H with the same 1.01 0044 firmware that has never even been powered on until this morning when I checked to see what is on it. So there are two "baseline" units to compare to if needed.
Since people have been using the 70d for months without issue and now lately are reporting issues, I'm wondering if something may be amiss in the firmware upgrades?
It's in Tascam's interest as well as the owners' interests to get to the bottom of this so the units work and make other people want to own them.
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I've asked this before, but I haven't seen an answer:
Has anyone had problems with a card on the *approved* list?
If so, I understand the skepticism and anger.
If not, I simply don't get it. Tascam says their machine only works with *some* and not *all* cards.
If this is a problem for you, don't buy a DR-70d.
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I just got an email from Tascam support with instructions to send a card to them. It will be on the way tomorrow...
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Here's the list of approved media copied from the Downloads PDF on Tascam's DR70d page
TASCAM DR-70D Tested media List
SD/SDHC Card
Manufacturer Model Parts# Capacity Remarks
SDSDXPB-032G 32GB OK
SDSDXPB-016G 16GB OK
SDSDXPA-032G 32GB NG
SDSDXPA-016G 16GB OK
SDSDUP-032G 32GB NG
SDSDUP-016G 16GB OK
SDSDUP-008G 8GB OK
RP-SDUC32GAK 32GB OK
RP-SDUC16GAK 16GB NG
RP-SDLC08GAK 8GB OK
RP-SDLC04GAK 4GB OK
NG = DO NOT USE
11 cards from 2 manufacturers - 3 of which are listed but say do not use (NG).
So that's 2 cards at 32 gig capacity that are allowable - 8 total cards allowed. Zero 64Gb or 128Gb cards.
Then there is this from the specs page on their website
"Recording media
SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)"
That pretty much makes this a joke in my book. It should do what you say it will do before you put it on the market. If you claim it will accept cards up to 128Gb then test the cards and let people know what to use. If you don't and people have to just try cards out for themselves then they are doing your beta testing for you. Is this still in the running for a Tec Award?
Anyone who has experience with SD card recorders knows that sometimes they don't play nice with certain cards. My Marantz 620 didn't like Kingston brand cards. That was well documented anecdotally and on Denon Professional's own website. Every other recorder I've owned (including 2 from Tascam) worked with every card I put in it. Without a hitch. Every single time.
There is obviously something wrong with this deck from a software design standpoint. But I don't build stuff...I buy it and use it. I wanted one of these after having such a positive experience running a DR60d but not now......
edit to add : The DR60d acceptable media list has a total of 29 cards, 9 of which are 32Gb, the largest capacity allowed by the deck (including one of the 32Gb cards lited above as NG (do not use)).
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^ apparently not on the list yet:
Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161310#msg2161310
and confirmed good in: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161340#msg2161340
so that is two 64GB and one 128GB cards that you can use and Tascam says you will have no write problems with those
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^ apparently not on the list yet:
Preliminary info from card testing:
Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3
For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS. Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161310#msg2161310
and confirmed good in: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161340#msg2161340
so that is two 64GB and one 128GB cards that you can use and Tascam says you will have no write problems with those
Except they are not on the list. Tascam says use an approved card and those do not appear on the approved list. If you take it as truth from reading it on a message board and your files are corrupt they have no accountability .
Jesus, I update PDF files for public consumption every day at work and I'm an uneducated hillbilly from Alabama who can barely pick his nose with a crayon.
If you know cards are good and people are clamoring to know what they are maybe update the PDF file on the downloads page :facepalm:
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Just about time for Part 5, huh? In which Tascam solves the DR-70D card problem!!?
If you're interested, my complaint with the BBB is online, so you can follow along:
https://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/443623/c/h68r4v
Desired Resolution: I want to use the Tascam DR-70D in the manner it is intended to be used, with SDXC cards of sufficient size, as advertised. I want Tascam to resolve the issue either by certifying a few 64 and 128 GB SDXC cards, repairing the hardware, updating the firmware, or if they can not resolve their hardware issue, as a very last resort, Tascam should be forced to stop advertising the unit as being compatible with cards over 32GB.
If this is the case, that TEAC/Tascam are unable to demonstrate that their DR-70D product meets their operational specifications, then I want them to issue a refund for my purchase.
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Just about time for Part 5, huh? In which Tascam solves the DR-70D card problem!!?
If you're interested, my complaint with the BBB is online, so you can follow along:
https://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/443623/c/h68r4v
Desired Resolution: I want to use the Tascam DR-70D in the manner it is intended to be used, with SDXC cards of sufficient size, as advertised. I want Tascam to resolve the issue either by certifying a few 64 and 128 GB SDXC cards, repairing the hardware, updating the firmware, or if they can not resolve their hardware issue, as a very last resort, Tascam should be forced to stop advertising the unit as being compatible with cards over 32GB.
If this is the case, that TEAC/Tascam are unable to demonstrate that their DR-70D product meets their operational specifications, then I want them to issue a refund for my purchase.
A BBB filing? Seriously? :facepalm:
Even though it may have been after you took that ridiculous action, go back and read replies 308 and 312, linked by flipp a couple posts up.
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My own posts here haven't been an effort to run him off, but at the same time when there are unanswered questions it can be a frustrating interaction...we've seen that here. As self appointed moderator of this thread and the 70D subject in general, I again applaud you. However, you also need to let people express their thoughts and opinions without overlaying your moderated thoughts on top of them, but I do understand that you have a vested interest in this as well since you own a 70D, so that's not always easy. (Incidentally, I'm a FANTASTIC party guest. ;))
First of all, I'm not a self-appointed anything; I simply volunteered to manage the FAQ and the card survey since things like that are fun for me. I called you out because I found the way you were dealing with Tom to be really over the top. I don't think he was giving you some sort of company line or stock answer, but simply answering to the best of his knowledge based on the information he has. You didn't get the answers you wanted because he didn't have them, and I think you really were pretty aggressive and pushy. It wasn't necessary. Incidentally, he's not coming back.
The majority of the angst I see is simply confusion/nonacceptance regarding the logic of his responses. The response has been that cards aren't fast enough and slow down over time, but that just doesn't make sense given that the cards work in other units. Clearly the throughput of data is fine on a DR680 that has 8 channels, so using the same card, the throughput of data on a unit with 4 channels can't keep up, even sometimes when it's only being used in 2 channel mode? It's not logical...so frankly, lacking a technical explanation for what's happening that accounts for this phenomenon, I just really have a hard time believing that this is simply a card issue. I attempted to find out if buffering was at the source to perhaps help better understand why the card speed response made more sense, but that didn't go anywhere.
I'm not sure how write buffer's work, but I assume it's analogous to 'cache' memory on a hard drive which allows hard drives to operate alot faster because the drive doesn't have to spin idle while the computer searches for free sectors to write to...the computer writes to the cache memory instead. Perhaps it's just another memory chip that fills up with data as it bottlenecks while the unit is searching for free sectors on the SD card.
Again, I think Tom's answer on this was satisfactory, in that he stated he doesn't have access to design docs and isn't an engineer. The statement of "cards slow down over time" absolutely makes sense if you understand how flash memory works and physically degrades over time. The cache memory on a HDD isn't as direct an analogy as you may think, because a HDD doesn't physically degrade in the same way as flash memory. A HDD can certainly develop bad sectors, but generally with good disk management the performance of the disk overall isn't going to degrade all that much unless it's an extreme situation. This is not the case with flash memory - when things start wearing out (and they will), you will start to see performance degradation on a more global scale. SSD drives employ "wear leveling" to help combat this, but SD cards do not.
If the buffer memory on the 70D is significantly smaller than that of the 680 or other multichannel recorders, then to me it's quite logical that the 70D is thus more "picky" with memory cards because cards because a device with a larger write buffer will be able to better compensate for the reduced physical performance of older and/or new but lower-performing cards that now have fewer good sectors to write to. That problem is amplified when recording multiple simultaneous data streams as is the case in audio recording. This is just a theory on my part, but I'd say it's a plausible one. Remember that a card's rating from the manufacturer is based on burst reads/writes; not continuous streams of data. Therefore a card may perform like a Class 10 in a DSLR, but absolutely suck wind in an audio recorder because of the difference in how it's being used - even if it's brand new. That's where media testing becomes important, and where I think Tascam should have had a good list of tested cards ready to go out of the gate upon product release.
I both agree and disagree. You're right...this point has already been made and there's probably nothing new to discover here. But to me, this is pretty much the whole reason people are balking at the 'stock response' being given. Refer above to my comments about how, without additional explanation, that it's not logical if the data throughput on much larger capacity units is fine and this one isn't. All Tascam needs to do is provide a logical explanation and answer the 'why' question and people will back off. People aren't stupid (especially here where lots of us are technical minded people that like to know how things work) and right now, without additional information, the responses being provided aren't jiving with logic.
I have no idea what the bold statement above means. What does card capacity have to do with data throughput?
Also while I somewhat agree with your "people aren't stupid" statement, I think a lot of people here may have just enough rope to hang themselves with, and I'm including myself in that. I will fully agree however that Tascam needs to look into this more closely and respond with their findings. Tom's suggestion of sending in cards with errors seems to be a good first step in that direction.
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I've asked this before, but I haven't seen an answer:
Has anyone had problems with a card on the *approved* list?
If so, I understand the skepticism and anger.
If not, I simply don't get it. Tascam says their machine only works with *some* and not *all* cards.
If this is a problem for you, don't buy a DR-70d.
Unfortunately for those of us that have been involved with this saga, it's not as simple as your summary, but your summary is the bottom line of where we're at today.
You said you don't get it. I'll explain and hopefully it will help you to understand the anxiety being expressed in this thread.
Tascam released the DR70D around the early part of February of this year. When it was released, it apparently worked fine with all of the cards people threw at it. (For me, it worked fine with the card I always used in it then at some point it started having issues.) Nobody reported issues at first and there was no 'approved cards list'. It quickly became very popular here on ts.com.
In late June, Tascam released v1.11 of their firmware and, whether by coincidence or not, people started reporting glitch problems around the same time. Pretty soon, the floodgates opened and over the next month or so there were lots of users reporting the same issues. As I recall, there was still no 'approved cards list'.
Tascam told users that the issue was the cards they were using by saying that four track recorders tax the data throughput of cards. This didn't seem logical to most users that already owned their 70D since a) many had already successfully used cards in the unit, but then they didn't work, and b) many had stated that they'd used the same cards in other multi-track recorders without issue, c) there were a few other reasons why this explanation didn't seem to add up. A simple question was asked...please explain to us WHY to a) and b)? No answer was provided...but users were reminded by Tascam that we shouldn't expect pro results from using non-pro cards. Lots of people expressed their concern with Tascam's unresponsiveness to the basic question WHY?
On August 1, Tascam published the current 'approved cards list' which is showing on their page. I can't remember if a previous list was posted prior to August 1. After the 'approved cards list' was published, Tascam's response to the glitch issue is simply to refer users to the approved card list and that's been what's come to be known as the 'stock response' since.
Tascam's marketing information from Day One has stated that the unit accepts SDXC cards up to 128gb. Not only is the 'approved cards list' very small, but surprisingly there aren't any SDXC cards on the list. So, a new question for Tascam...how can you be marketing a unit as accepting SDXC cards, when there's not even a single card on the list? True to form, Tascam comes out after the fact and only last week were we informed of two or three SDXC cards that they'd tested and put on the list.
Can you start to see a potential pattern here of Tascam covering up after users uncover issues? Or maybe Tascam is simply late rolling out all of the media support materials.
I can't speak for others...I'm glad Tascam updates the list, but these things need to be done proactively. Doing these things IN RESPONSE to customer comments is at best, shoddy product roll out, and at worst covering up for potential design flaws/limitations that users are discovering in the DR70D. Which is it? I don't really know but I know what it feels like to me.
Hope this helps explain to you why the issue isn't as simple as 'buy an approved card or don't buy the DR70D' for those of us that have had a 70D since the start.
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Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination? Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.
contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea
You guys can't bitch about this offer
No, I can't bitch about this offer, but something like this should have/could have been the response from Day One.
But yeah, the bottom line is if we can work together (Tascam and customers with glitchy units) to solve this issue, then I'm OK with Tascam...stuff happens. So far, that hasn't happened, but this is a good sign.
that's true too, would have been a much better responce from both sides if it was from the get go
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First of all, I'm not a self-appointed anything; I simply volunteered to manage the FAQ and the card survey since things like that are fun for me. I called you out because I found the way you were dealing with Tom to be really over the top. I don't think he was giving you some sort of company line or stock answer, but simply answering to the best of his knowledge based on the information he has. You didn't get the answers you wanted because he didn't have them, and I think you really were pretty aggressive and pushy. It wasn't necessary. Incidentally, he's not coming back.
That's your opinion. Others have already said stated that they disagree that Tom has been treated poorly. In my opinion, nobody has been aggressive and pushy with Tomuo, other than the we fact that we haven't simply accepted 'use cards on the list' as the only response...inquiring minds want to know more. The only thing I told him is to explain to him in black and white why his responses weren't holding water for me and asking for more. I also said in another post that, as of right now, my unit is a piece of shit to me. As this saga unfolds, that might change, but right now it's a paperweight since I have 0 trust in in.
...and your comment above only states what you THINK Tomuo knows, but you don't know any more than I do. You don't have a clue what information Tomuo knows or doesn't know. Can you read minds? In fact, I think he's holding back because, as others have already suggested, I think it's part of Tascam's risk management strategy. (While encouraging, don't you find it even a little bit 'strange' that they're finally asking for people to send in cards today? Why wasn't this or something similar the response on Day One?)
Finally, if my use of the words 'self-appointed' seemed offensive, they weren't intended to be. I understand that you volunteered to lead the way...just as I've stated I'll do so on the Zoom F8 (I'm still writing my review, but it's going slow and I've grown weary since it's taking so long). I thought they meant the same thing. Either way, it was meant as a compliment and a 'thank you', which I think I stated somewhat in my initial reply.
The majority of the angst I see is simply confusion/nonacceptance regarding the logic of his responses. The response has been that cards aren't fast enough and slow down over time, but that just doesn't make sense given that the cards work in other units. Clearly the throughput of data is fine on a DR680 that has 8 channels, so using the same card, the throughput of data on a unit with 4 channels can't keep up, even sometimes when it's only being used in 2 channel mode? It's not logical...so frankly, lacking a technical explanation for what's happening that accounts for this phenomenon, I just really have a hard time believing that this is simply a card issue. I attempted to find out if buffering was at the source to perhaps help better understand why the card speed response made more sense, but that didn't go anywhere.
I'm not sure how write buffer's work, but I assume it's analogous to 'cache' memory on a hard drive which allows hard drives to operate alot faster because the drive doesn't have to spin idle while the computer searches for free sectors to write to...the computer writes to the cache memory instead. Perhaps it's just another memory chip that fills up with data as it bottlenecks while the unit is searching for free sectors on the SD card.
Again, I think Tom's answer on this was satisfactory, in that he stated he doesn't have access to design docs and isn't an engineer. The statement of "cards slow down over time" absolutely makes sense if you understand how flash memory works and physically degrades over time. The cache memory on a HDD isn't as direct an analogy as you may think, because a HDD doesn't physically degrade in the same way as flash memory. A HDD can certainly develop bad sectors, but generally with good disk management the performance of the disk overall isn't going to degrade all that much unless it's an extreme situation. This is not the case with flash memory - when things start wearing out (and they will), you will start to see performance degradation on a more global scale. SSD drives employ "wear leveling" to help combat this, but SD cards do not.
If the buffer memory on the 70D is significantly smaller than that of the 680 or other multichannel recorders, then to me it's quite logical that the 70D is thus more "picky" with memory cards because cards because a device with a larger write buffer will be able to better compensate for the reduced physical performance of older and/or new but lower-performing cards that now have fewer good sectors to write to. That problem is amplified when recording multiple simultaneous data streams as is the case in audio recording. This is just a theory on my part, but I'd say it's a plausible one. Remember that a card's rating from the manufacturer is based on burst reads/writes; not continuous streams of data. Therefore a card may perform like a Class 10 in a DSLR, but absolutely suck wind in an audio recorder because of the difference in how it's being used - even if it's brand new. That's where media testing becomes important, and where I think Tascam should have had a good list of tested cards ready to go out of the gate upon product release.
That wasn't hard for you and I to do was it?
I don't know squat about how computers work, but if you and I can come up with that 'analysis' over the course of a taperssection conversation as a possible explanation for what's going on, is it REALLY too much to ask for Tascam (not necessarily Tom, but if he doesn't have the answer someone else should) to be able to also provide some degree of explanation for what's going on with this unit to get the hounds off their back? Who knows if the above is a valid line or reasoning. Thus far, we haven't been able to get Tascam to tell us or even suggest a willingness to try, but them requesting a look at a card seems a step in the right direction.
I both agree and disagree. You're right...this point has already been made and there's probably nothing new to discover here. But to me, this is pretty much the whole reason people are balking at the 'stock response' being given. Refer above to my comments about how, without additional explanation, that it's not logical if the data throughput on much larger capacity units is fine and this one isn't. All Tascam needs to do is provide a logical explanation and answer the 'why' question and people will back off. People aren't stupid (especially here where lots of us are technical minded people that like to know how things work) and right now, without additional information, the responses being provided aren't jiving with logic.
I have no idea what the bold statement above means. What does card capacity have to do with data throughput?
Also while I somewhat agree with your "people aren't stupid" statement, I think a lot of people here may have just enough rope to hang themselves with, and I'm including myself in that. I will fully agree however that Tascam needs to look into this more closely and respond with their findings. Tom's suggestion of sending in cards with errors seems to be a good first step in that direction.
Agree.
Honestly, I don't know what card capacity has to do with data throughput.
What I meant was that if an 8 channel recorder can write 8 channels of data to a card, but the same card bogs down or won't work in a 2 or 4 channels unit, when Tascam says that the card is too slow to work in the DR70D, that's not a logical response without additional information...people have asked WHY from the beginning. But Tascam's inability to provide the answer to the why question, IN MY OPINION, in the entire reason this firestorm has continued. Maybe the buffer is the additional info needed...I don't know.
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(While encouraging, don't you find it even a little bit 'strange' that they're finally asking for people to send in cards today? Why wasn't this or something similar the response on Day One?)
I don't find it strange at all. Day One only had one report of glitches. As far as Tascam was concerned it might just be a one-off. As more reports came in it became obvious that it was more than an isolated incident. Still too early to do anything more than guess at a cause until more info becomes known. Sending cards to Tascam and filling out voltronic's questionaire/survey are great ways to get more data which should make it easier to find the cause.
Comparing the DR70 issue to the Sound Devices/Windows10 issue I think the current time-frame wrt the DR70 is still speculation analagous to the SD/W reports of it happening only when cards were placed in an external reader. Only with more time and more reports was it found that it could happen when the card was still in the SD unit for a transfer to the computer. Only at that point did the MS employee (who happened to be an SD owner also) ask for cards to be sent in so the engineers could see what was actually happening to the cards. Took a few days for them to find out SD was using a MS reserved space that MS hadn't used before W10.
There has been one reply that I'm aware of that Tascam has gotten back to someone so a "glitchy" card can be mailed. It'll take a few days to get to Tascam before the engineers even have a chance to look at it, then most likely a few more days (minimum) to try to correct whatever the problem is, provided that the source can be found.
What I see is a few disgruntled users expect instantaneous results. Unfortunately the real world seldom produces innstantaneous results. From the viewpoint of an interested observer without a DR70 in the gear locker I hope the engineers can find the source of the glitchiness whether it be a data bottleneck, poorly tested firmware updates, firmware updates incompatible with MS updates or even the DR70 causing accelerated "wear" of secure digital media.
I still haven't seen anyone reply to Noah that they have had glitches on a card that is on the "approved" list. In light of that it actually looks like the answer to the problem really is "use a card on the approved list" as much as everyone is bitching about that "canned" answer. As to the marketing statements that it works with x, y and z it appears it really does work with x, y and z as long as you use the particlar x, y and z that are on the approved list.
< At least Tascam is doing some testing of cards and hopefully will update the approved list to add at least the three cards Tom mentioned a few pages back. I'm familiar with manufacturers not updating their "Qualified Vendors List" and not replying to inquiries about updates to the list - in my case I have a v1.0 motherboard with a M.2 SSD slot. The QVL has 24 specific models on it with many from vendors who don't market in the US. Over a year later and the motherboard is now up to v1.4 and the QVL still lists the same 24 specific models - no updates and no response from any/every email I could find on their site and calls to tech support get the same "canned" answer - use one of the products on the QVL. frustrating is an understatement >
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159 views on GS and this is the only response so far - and that from Jim Williams:
Only one bad file, batteries might have been at the end of life using AKG460B mics. Fresh batteries on the second set were all ok. Otherwise, perfect so far.
So, either (i) no one on GS bought the machine, (ii) they aren't having problems, or (iii) they don't care to respond if they are having problems.
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Here is the list of approved cards from the web site of Tascam Europe :
http://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/DR-70D_TestedMedia_EN.pdf (http://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/DR-70D_TestedMedia_EN.pdf)
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Here is the list of approved cards from the web site of Tascam Europe :
http://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/DR-70D_TestedMedia_EN.pdf (http://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/DR-70D_TestedMedia_EN.pdf)
Wow - the plot thickens!
My cards are on this approved (ahem - "Tested Media") list...!
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(While encouraging, don't you find it even a little bit 'strange' that they're finally asking for people to send in cards today? Why wasn't this or something similar the response on Day One?)
I don't find it strange at all. Day One only had one report of glitches. As far as Tascam was concerned it might just be a one-off. As more reports came in it became obvious that it was more than an isolated incident. Still too early to do anything more than guess at a cause until more info becomes known. Sending cards to Tascam and filling out voltronic's questionaire/survey are great ways to get more data which should make it easier to find the cause.
...
Agreed with basically everything in your post Flipp. What I was referring to above with my strange comment is that, after falling back on the 'card list' response for quite some time, it seems Tascam might be acknowledging that there is more of an issue here and they're looking a little deeper. But you're right...they wouldn't have reason to unless alot of people came forward with a problem, which takes time. I do note that when notified of an issue, Sound Devices proactively attacked the issue to identify, validate, and resolve it pronto instead of, as a first strategy trying to pass it off, but it's also been noted that Tascam isn't SD so better late than never.
I don't know if you've read all of the responses, but the gist of the complaint is that, without additional information, alot of people aren't buying into the response that this is simply a card issue. Maybe that seems counterproductive but I've laid out in previous responses why people are skeptical of this response. Additionally, someone has stated that apparently Tascam has used this same 'strategy' on another product that was finicky with media only to come out with a firmware update later that solved the issue...I'm not sure if this is true or not. So trying out a bunch of higher priced cards before getting a higher level of confidence that it will absolutely address the issue...well I've got backup recorders so I'm holding off spending the money pending reports by others...you know why pound shit down a rat hole. In the meantime, I've been trying to be active and productive in solving the more basic reason this unit is having a problem...my suggestions lead to the start of the database. I also came up with the concept that buffering might be the issue. Finally, I tried to probe the Tascam rep with direct questions.
But yeah you're also right. Until a case is built that the cards on the list either work or not, there's a big question mark about where this is going.
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Again, I think Tom's answer on this was satisfactory, in that he stated he doesn't have access to design docs and isn't an engineer. The statement of "cards slow down over time" absolutely makes sense if you understand how flash memory works and physically degrades over time. The cache memory on a HDD isn't as direct an analogy as you may think, because a HDD doesn't physically degrade in the same way as flash memory. A HDD can certainly develop bad sectors, but generally with good disk management the performance of the disk overall isn't going to degrade all that much unless it's an extreme situation. This is not the case with flash memory - when things start wearing out (and they will), you will start to see performance degradation on a more global scale. SSD drives employ "wear leveling" to help combat this, but SD cards do not.
Are you sure about this? I am virtually certain that modern SD cards, at least those from reputable companies, implement wear leveling. SanDisk has been doing it for more than decade, I think. Even if you assume no wear leveling, however, SD card sectors can do several thousand write/erase cycles before failure. That's equivalent to writing/erasing the card daily for years. I have no doubt that cards fail, and that they will all fail at some point, but I think the probability that card wear is the issue with so many people/cards experiencing problems is vanishingly small.
If the buffer memory on the 70D is significantly smaller than that of the 680 or other multichannel recorders, then to me it's quite logical that the 70D is thus more "picky" with memory cards because cards because a device with a larger write buffer will be able to better compensate for the reduced physical performance of older and/or new but lower-performing cards that now have fewer good sectors to write to. That problem is amplified when recording multiple simultaneous data streams as is the case in audio recording. This is just a theory on my part, but I'd say it's a plausible one. Remember that a card's rating from the manufacturer is based on burst reads/writes; not continuous streams of data. Therefore a card may perform like a Class 10 in a DSLR, but absolutely suck wind in an audio recorder because of the difference in how it's being used - even if it's brand new. That's where media testing becomes important, and where I think Tascam should have had a good list of tested cards ready to go out of the gate upon product release.
I would say that if the buffer is too small to record audio (if that's the issue in the first place), that is a de facto design flaw in an audio recorder. I wonder if that type of problem would be fixable with firmware?
With respect to the bolded, these things are usually classed by sustained write speed. A lot of people use SD cards to record HD video, which is not only continuous, but also considerably more data than even four channel 24/96.
Interesting to see that a number of class 2 and 4 cards are on the European website. That would seem to imply that these issues (buffers and write speeds) are not the problem...
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Does the DR-70D have the facility for a FULL format of the card, like the DR-40, (It takes a long time) ? If so, has anyone tried it, or can you only do a quick format ?
Has any one tried a full format in a computer, followed by a format in the recorder and has it helped ?
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When I filled out the survey I responded as two channels, I remembered last night that I actually recorded channels 3&4 at -6db as a backup. Interestingly enough going back to the safety tracks the same glitch appears at the same time.
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^ That is interesting! It kind of suggests that the glitch occurs prior to the SD card, doesn't it?
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Does the DR-70D have the facility for a FULL format of the card, like the DR-40, (It takes a long time) ? If so, has anyone tried it, or can you only do a quick format ?
It does now - I think this was a new feature in added in the most recent firmware update.
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rn_vd.pdf
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I actually recorded channels 3&4 at -6db as a backup. Interestingly enough going back to the safety tracks the same glitch appears at the same time.
So it would be further evidence in the case if glitches occurred across all four channels when inputting four, or only across all four when it was two plus backup. Any experiences?
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I actually recorded channels 3&4 at -6db as a backup. Interestingly enough going back to the safety tracks the same glitch appears at the same time.
So it would be further evidence in the case if glitches occurred across all four channels when inputting four, or only across all four when it was two plus backup. Any experiences?
I think we've seen problems under just about all combos - this just adds another scenario.
I beginning to think there is something about their reformatting routine that is causing the card to get corrupted or slow down prematurely.
Wondering if the slower "ERASE FORMAT" function is going to help?
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Since its conventional taper wisdom - (going back to the JB3) - to make a media reformat for each outing.
Maybe all reformatting is not the same? (despite the term)
We have owners of other Tascam recorders mentioning how much slower the reformat function is on their device.
Perhaps the routine use of the "Quick Format" function is leading to the problems.
Gotta wonder - we tapers probably use the reformat function more than most users. Might explain why this vector of users is having problems.
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Has anyone reported similar problems with the DR-60D when recording 4 channels , and is that model fussy about cards ?
I've had a DR-60D (mkI) for over 1.5 years now and I've been happy with it. Haven't used it quite as much as a few other decks in my stable, but running 4 channels into it and no glitches to report with any of the SD cards I've thrown at it. And I never bothered to check the approved media list.
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A BBB filing? Seriously? :facepalm:
Yes.
PS are we trying for page 28?
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Again, I think Tom's answer on this was satisfactory, in that he stated he doesn't have access to design docs and isn't an engineer. The statement of "cards slow down over time" absolutely makes sense if you understand how flash memory works and physically degrades over time. The cache memory on a HDD isn't as direct an analogy as you may think, because a HDD doesn't physically degrade in the same way as flash memory. A HDD can certainly develop bad sectors, but generally with good disk management the performance of the disk overall isn't going to degrade all that much unless it's an extreme situation. This is not the case with flash memory - when things start wearing out (and they will), you will start to see performance degradation on a more global scale. SSD drives employ "wear leveling" to help combat this, but SD cards do not.
Are you sure about this? I am virtually certain that modern SD cards, at least those from reputable companies, implement wear leveling. SanDisk has been doing it for more than decade, I think. Even if you assume no wear leveling, however, SD card sectors can do several thousand write/erase cycles before failure. That's equivalent to writing/erasing the card daily for years. I have no doubt that cards fail, and that they will all fail at some point, but I think the probability that card wear is the issue with so many people/cards experiencing problems is vanishingly small.
Wear leveling is not in the official SD spec as far as I know. If SanDisk has been using it, it would likely be on their top-line cards.
I think "several thousand" may be a bit generous - I've seen a variety of estimates as low as 10,000 cycles per sector. That said, I think card wear is probably not the primary culprit for all of the people having problems, though it may be for some.
If the buffer memory on the 70D is significantly smaller than that of the 680 or other multichannel recorders, then to me it's quite logical that the 70D is thus more "picky" with memory cards because cards because a device with a larger write buffer will be able to better compensate for the reduced physical performance of older and/or new but lower-performing cards that now have fewer good sectors to write to. That problem is amplified when recording multiple simultaneous data streams as is the case in audio recording. This is just a theory on my part, but I'd say it's a plausible one. Remember that a card's rating from the manufacturer is based on burst reads/writes; not continuous streams of data. Therefore a card may perform like a Class 10 in a DSLR, but absolutely suck wind in an audio recorder because of the difference in how it's being used - even if it's brand new. That's where media testing becomes important, and where I think Tascam should have had a good list of tested cards ready to go out of the gate upon product release.
I would say that if the buffer is too small to record audio (if that's the issue in the first place), that is a de facto design flaw in an audio recorder. I wonder if that type of problem would be fixable with firmware?
With respect to the bolded, these things are usually classed by sustained write speed. A lot of people use SD cards to record HD video, which is not only continuous, but also considerably more data than even four channel 24/96.
Interesting to see that a number of class 2 and 4 cards are on the European website. That would seem to imply that these issues (buffers and write speeds) are not the problem...
Yes, I would agree with you that too small a buffer would be a flaw. Back in my PC repair / building days I was obsessed with getting the very best CD burners. One of the things that separated the quality units from the cheap ones was the quality and capacity of their write buffers.
The idea that HD video is more of a data rate than high-res audio is a common misconception. The individual frames of HD video are pretty small megapixel-wise. Still high-res photography is probably more taxing, especially if you're shooting in burst mode, and according to Tom, audio recording is more stressful than both.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2160546#msg2160546 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2160546#msg2160546)
http://www.alphr.com/features/380167/does-your-camera-need-a-fast-sd-card (http://www.alphr.com/features/380167/does-your-camera-need-a-fast-sd-card)
And some good FAQs from the offical SD Card people: https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/speed/max_speed/index.html (https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/speed/max_speed/index.html)
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Wear leveling is not in the official SD spec as far as I know. If SanDisk has been using it, it would likely be on their top-line cards.
Yes, their top of the line cards a decade ago. No, it is not in the official specs for, at least, HD. I am not sure about SDHC or SDXC. Not that the spec matters if most companies implement it anyway.
I think "several thousand" may be a bit generous - I've seen a variety of estimates as low as 10,000 cycles per sector. That said, I think card wear is probably not the primary culprit for all of the people having problems, though it may be for some.
How is several thousand more generous than ten thousand? At ten thousand cycles, that is every day for more than 27 years...
The idea that HD video is more of a data rate than high-res audio is a common misconception. The individual frames of HD video are pretty small megapixel-wise. Still high-res photography is probably more taxing, especially if you're shooting in burst mode, and according to Tom, audio recording is more stressful than both.
Maybe, although I would like to see a reference. Four channel 24/96 is 1.1 MB/s; I think HD is more. Of course, if Tom says otherwise...
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The idea that HD video is more of a data rate than high-res audio is a common misconception. The individual frames of HD video are pretty small megapixel-wise. Still high-res photography is probably more taxing, especially if you're shooting in burst mode, and according to Tom, audio recording is more stressful than both.
Maybe, although I would like to see a reference. Four channel 24/96 is 1.1 MB/s; I think HD is more. Of course, if Tom says otherwise...
I chose randomly a hi res video camera and looked in the manual. Canon Vixia HFS10 has 32gb of built in flash memory
MXP Mode - 2hr 55min
FXP Mode - 4hr 10min
XP+ Mode - 5hr 45min
SP Mode - 9hr 35min
LP Mode - 12hr 15min
So at the lowest resolution, the data consumption rate is something less that 3gb per hour (32gb/12.25hr).
At the highest resolution, the data consumption rate is a little over 10gb per hour (32gb/3hr)
Since audio eats data at around 1hr per gb at 24/48 for 2 channels, at the highest audio rate of 24/96 and 4 channels, the peak data usage rate of the DR70D rate is something close to 4gb/hour. At 24/48 the rate of course is 2gb/hr.
Conclusion: There's some overlap, but in general HD video uses more data than HD audio.
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The idea that HD video is more of a data rate than high-res audio is a common misconception. The individual frames of HD video are pretty small megapixel-wise. Still high-res photography is probably more taxing, especially if you're shooting in burst mode, and according to Tom, audio recording is more stressful than both.
Maybe, although I would like to see a reference. Four channel 24/96 is 1.1 MB/s; I think HD is more. Of course, if Tom says otherwise...
I chose randomly a hi res video camera and looked in the manual. Canon Vixia HFS10 has 32gb of built in flash memory
MXP Mode - 2hr 55min
FXP Mode - 4hr 10min
XP+ Mode - 5hr 45min
SP Mode - 9hr 35min
LP Mode - 12hr 15min
So at the lowest resolution, the data consumption rate is something less that 3gb per hour (32gb/12.25hr).
At the highest resolution, the data consumption rate is a little over 10gb per hour (32gb/3hr)
Since audio eats data at around 1hr per gb at 24/48 for 2 channels, at the highest audio rate of 24/96 and 4 channels, the peak data usage rate of the DR70D rate is something close to 4gb/hour. At 24/48 the rate of course is 2gb/hr.
Conclusion: There's some overlap, but in general HD video uses more data than HD audio.
OK, but is the camera writing that data in chunks or in one continuous stream? That was the point I was raising - obviously HD video is writing more data over a given period of time on average, but it's not necessarily continuous. I think that's where Tom was headed with his comment I linked a few posts up. As I understand it, recording PCM audio is more of the constant-stream variety.
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Time to move this to Part 5. (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174900.0)