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Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)  (Read 105478 times)

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stevetoney

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #360 on: September 30, 2015, 08:53:40 AM »
Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination?   Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.

contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea
You guys can't bitch about this offer

No, I can't bitch about this offer, but something like this should have/could have been the response from Day One. 

But yeah, the bottom line is if we can work together (Tascam and customers with glitchy units) to solve this issue, then I'm OK with Tascam...stuff happens.  So far, that hasn't happened, but this is a good sign.

stevetoney

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #361 on: September 30, 2015, 09:41:16 AM »
A few thoughts in response.  First, I agree with many of your points...I've deleted those from my response since 'I agree' posts are a waste.

Some thoughts on recent posts here:

1. I agree that Tom's abrupt "I'm outta here" was premature, and I have PM'd him politely asking for him to return, letting him know that his exit makes it seem that he was not interested in exploring alternative solutions / explanations to the problems users are seeing.

Thanks, it's great to have his input.  My own posts here haven't been an effort to run him off, but at the same time when there are unanswered questions it can be a frustrating interaction...we've seen that here.  As self appointed moderator of this thread and the 70D subject in general, I again applaud you.  However, you also need to let people express their thoughts and opinions without overlaying your moderated thoughts on top of them, but I do understand that you have a vested interest in this as well since you own a 70D, so that's not always easy.  (Incidentally, I'm a FANTASTIC party guest.  ;)

2. Could some of the ire directed at Tom's responses be a result of pent-up frustration over past bad experiences with Tascam customer / tech support?  I can certainly relate - I still can't get any sort of reply from their official email contacts, but I have tried not to take it out on a rep that appears in an online forum.  Tom was the one positive face of Tascam customer support I have dealt with, which is why I was trying to keep the peace.

I totally understand why you were trying to keep the peace and agree that having Tom here is a definite plus.  But remember that he's Tascam's rep and on the other end are alot of frustrated users.  Moderating between the two is a tightrope walk right there.

Pent up frustration with Tascam?  That's not the case for me.  The majority of the angst I see is simply confusion/nonacceptance regarding the logic of his responses.  The response has been that cards aren't fast enough and slow down over time, but that just doesn't make sense given that the cards work in other units.  Clearly the throughput of data is fine on a DR680 that has 8 channels, so using the same card, the throughput of data on a unit with 4 channels can't keep up, even sometimes when it's only being used in 2 channel mode?  It's not logical...so frankly, lacking a technical explanation for what's happening that accounts for this phenomenon, I just really have a hard time believing that this is simply a card issue.  I attempted to find out if buffering was at the source to perhaps help better understand why the card speed response made more sense, but that didn't go anywhere.   

4. Several people have said it before, but unless you bought cards at an absolutely reputable retailer then you don't really know if you got what you paid for.  Most know to avoid eBay, but I won't buy memory cards on Amazon either, as there are many fakes that are hard to spot.  If the 70D is more "picky" about cards than other recorders, one of these rebrands might be showing its true colors here even if it works fine in another recorder.  The write buffer and how it may be smaller than other multichannel recorders may be significant here.

I'm not sure how write buffer's work, but I assume it's analogous to 'cache' memory on a hard drive which allows hard drives to operate alot faster because the drive doesn't have to spin idle while the computer searches for free sectors to write to...the computer writes to the cache memory instead.  Perhaps it's just another memory chip that fills up with data as it bottlenecks while the unit is searching for free sectors on the SD card. 

5. Along those lines, I don't think it's very useful to keep stating that "X card worked great in X recorder but not in the 70D."  Some things are compatible with some things, while not with other things.  Rehashing this point does nothing to help us towards finding a solution.

I both agree and disagree.  You're right...this point has already been made and there's probably nothing new to discover here.  But to me, this is pretty much the whole reason people are balking at the 'stock response' being given.  Refer above to my comments about how, without additional explanation, that it's not logical if the data throughput on much larger capacity units is fine and this one isn't.  All Tascam needs to do is provide a logical explanation and answer the 'why' question and people will back off.  People aren't stupid (especially here where lots of us are technical minded people that like to know how things work) and right now, without additional information, the responses being provided aren't jiving with logic.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 10:04:12 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline Ronmac

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #362 on: September 30, 2015, 09:56:08 AM »
Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination?   Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.

contact via custser@teac.com please.

I have a Lexar 16GB 1000x SD HCII 150MB/s I can send to you. I will send info to email supplied.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #363 on: September 30, 2015, 10:32:36 AM »
Quote
I have a Lexar 16GB 1000x SD HCII 150MB/s I can send to you. I will send info to email supplied.

That's good.  I do think that it's going to be important for us to work with Tascam on this one with as much grace as can be mustered - who else is there to work with?

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #364 on: September 30, 2015, 10:40:24 AM »
I have never updated firmware, so I have the "original" firmware still loaded.
I'm using a SanDisk Ultra 16GB (15mb/s, Class 4) card.
I've only used the DR-70 a few times..  twice in the field..  a number of times at home.
I have not had any problems that I know of.

I'm using original firmware that was loaded when I bought new from B&H during their $200 "bundle" sale. 
System Version:  1.01 0044

I've filled the 16GB card that I've mentioned with about 11GB worth of live streaming audio from satellite radio > 3.5mm stereo input.  And the remaining time left on the card (approx. 4-5GB) with 4 channels of P48 mikes plugged directly into the XLR inputs with P48 on.  So, the card is full and has not been removed from deck.  All recording done at 24bit/48kHz.
All recordings seem to be clean upon playback on the deck.

That's all I know so far.


edit to add:  I'm willing to run some tests with my current card and firmware if anyone has any suggestions.

Have exactly the same deal from B & H with the same 1.01 0044 firmware that has never even been powered on until this morning when I checked to see what is on it.  So there are two "baseline" units to compare to if needed. 

Since people have been using the 70d for months without issue and now lately are reporting issues, I'm wondering if something may be amiss in the firmware upgrades? 

It's in Tascam's interest as well as the owners' interests to get to the bottom of this so the units work and make other people want to own them. 








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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #365 on: September 30, 2015, 03:17:44 PM »
I've asked this before, but I haven't seen an answer:

Has anyone had problems with a card on the *approved* list?

If so, I understand the skepticism and anger.

If not, I simply don't get it. Tascam says their machine only works with *some* and not *all* cards.

If this is a problem for you, don't buy a DR-70d.
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Offline Ronmac

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #366 on: September 30, 2015, 04:24:54 PM »
I just got an email from Tascam support with instructions to send a card to them. It will be on the way tomorrow...

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #367 on: September 30, 2015, 05:13:38 PM »
Here's the list of approved media copied from the Downloads PDF on Tascam's  DR70d page

TASCAM DR-70D Tested media List
SD/SDHC Card
Manufacturer Model Parts# Capacity Remarks
SDSDXPB-032G 32GB OK
SDSDXPB-016G 16GB OK
SDSDXPA-032G 32GB NG
SDSDXPA-016G 16GB OK
SDSDUP-032G 32GB NG
SDSDUP-016G 16GB OK
SDSDUP-008G 8GB OK
RP-SDUC32GAK 32GB OK
RP-SDUC16GAK 16GB NG
RP-SDLC08GAK 8GB OK
RP-SDLC04GAK 4GB OK
NG = DO NOT USE


11 cards from 2 manufacturers - 3 of which are listed but say do not use (NG).

So that's 2 cards at 32 gig capacity that are allowable - 8 total cards allowed. Zero 64Gb or 128Gb cards.

Then there is this from the specs page on their website

"Recording media
 
SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)"

That pretty much makes this a joke in my book. It should do what you say it will do before you put it on the market. If you claim it will accept cards up to 128Gb then test the cards and let people know what to use. If you don't and people have to just try cards out for themselves then they are doing your beta testing for you. Is this still in the running for a Tec Award?

Anyone who has experience with SD card recorders knows that sometimes they don't play nice with certain cards. My Marantz 620 didn't like Kingston brand cards. That was well documented anecdotally and on Denon Professional's own website. Every other recorder I've owned (including 2 from Tascam) worked with every card I put in it. Without a hitch. Every single time.

There is obviously something wrong with this deck from a software design standpoint. But I don't build stuff...I buy it and use it. I wanted one of these after having such a positive experience running a DR60d but not now......

edit to add : The DR60d acceptable media list has a total of 29 cards, 9 of which are 32Gb, the largest capacity allowed by the deck (including one of the 32Gb cards lited above as NG (do not use)).
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Offline flipp

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #368 on: September 30, 2015, 05:24:09 PM »
^ apparently not on the list yet:

Quote

Preliminary info from card testing:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB    class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3

For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS.   Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
   

from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161310#msg2161310

and confirmed good in: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161340#msg2161340

so that is two 64GB and one 128GB cards that you can use and Tascam says you will have no write problems with those
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 05:27:06 PM by flipp »

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #369 on: September 30, 2015, 05:39:15 PM »
^ apparently not on the list yet:

Quote

Preliminary info from card testing:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB    class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3

For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS.   Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.
   

from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161310#msg2161310

and confirmed good in: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.msg2161340#msg2161340

so that is two 64GB and one 128GB cards that you can use and Tascam says you will have no write problems with those

Except they are not on the list. Tascam says use an approved card and those do not appear on the approved list. If you take it as truth from reading it on a message board and your files are corrupt they have no accountability .

Jesus, I update PDF files for public consumption every day at work and I'm an uneducated hillbilly from Alabama who can barely pick his nose with a crayon.

If you know cards are good and people are clamoring to know what they are maybe update the PDF file on the downloads page :facepalm:
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #370 on: September 30, 2015, 06:03:13 PM »
Just about time for Part 5, huh? In which Tascam solves the DR-70D card problem!!?

If you're interested, my complaint with the BBB is online, so you can follow along:
https://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/443623/c/h68r4v

Quote
Desired Resolution:   I want to use the Tascam DR-70D in the manner it is intended to be used, with SDXC cards of sufficient size, as advertised. I want Tascam to resolve the issue either by certifying a few 64 and 128 GB SDXC cards, repairing the hardware, updating the firmware, or if they can not resolve their hardware issue, as a very last resort, Tascam should be forced to stop advertising the unit as being compatible with cards over 32GB.

If this is the case, that TEAC/Tascam are unable to demonstrate that their DR-70D product meets their operational specifications, then I want them to issue a refund for my purchase.   
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #371 on: September 30, 2015, 07:44:37 PM »
Just about time for Part 5, huh? In which Tascam solves the DR-70D card problem!!?

If you're interested, my complaint with the BBB is online, so you can follow along:
https://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/443623/c/h68r4v

Quote
Desired Resolution:   I want to use the Tascam DR-70D in the manner it is intended to be used, with SDXC cards of sufficient size, as advertised. I want Tascam to resolve the issue either by certifying a few 64 and 128 GB SDXC cards, repairing the hardware, updating the firmware, or if they can not resolve their hardware issue, as a very last resort, Tascam should be forced to stop advertising the unit as being compatible with cards over 32GB.

If this is the case, that TEAC/Tascam are unable to demonstrate that their DR-70D product meets their operational specifications, then I want them to issue a refund for my purchase.   

A BBB filing?  Seriously?  :facepalm:

Even though it may have been after you took that ridiculous action, go back and read replies 308 and 312, linked by flipp a couple posts up.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 08:48:45 PM by voltronic »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #372 on: September 30, 2015, 08:48:26 PM »
My own posts here haven't been an effort to run him off, but at the same time when there are unanswered questions it can be a frustrating interaction...we've seen that here.  As self appointed moderator of this thread and the 70D subject in general, I again applaud you.  However, you also need to let people express their thoughts and opinions without overlaying your moderated thoughts on top of them, but I do understand that you have a vested interest in this as well since you own a 70D, so that's not always easy.  (Incidentally, I'm a FANTASTIC party guest.  ;)

First of all, I'm not a self-appointed anything; I simply volunteered to manage the FAQ and the card survey since things like that are fun for me.  I called you out because I found the way you were dealing with Tom to be really over the top.  I don't think he was giving you some sort of company line or stock answer, but simply answering to the best of his knowledge based on the information he has.  You didn't get the answers you wanted because he didn't have them, and I think you really were pretty aggressive and pushy.  It wasn't necessary.  Incidentally, he's not coming back.

The majority of the angst I see is simply confusion/nonacceptance regarding the logic of his responses.  The response has been that cards aren't fast enough and slow down over time, but that just doesn't make sense given that the cards work in other units.  Clearly the throughput of data is fine on a DR680 that has 8 channels, so using the same card, the throughput of data on a unit with 4 channels can't keep up, even sometimes when it's only being used in 2 channel mode?  It's not logical...so frankly, lacking a technical explanation for what's happening that accounts for this phenomenon, I just really have a hard time believing that this is simply a card issue.  I attempted to find out if buffering was at the source to perhaps help better understand why the card speed response made more sense, but that didn't go anywhere.

I'm not sure how write buffer's work, but I assume it's analogous to 'cache' memory on a hard drive which allows hard drives to operate alot faster because the drive doesn't have to spin idle while the computer searches for free sectors to write to...the computer writes to the cache memory instead.  Perhaps it's just another memory chip that fills up with data as it bottlenecks while the unit is searching for free sectors on the SD card. 

Again, I think Tom's answer on this was satisfactory, in that he stated he doesn't have access to design docs and isn't an engineer.  The statement of "cards slow down over time" absolutely makes sense if you understand how flash memory works and physically degrades over time.  The cache memory on a HDD isn't as direct an analogy as you may think, because a HDD doesn't physically degrade in the same way as flash memory.  A HDD can certainly develop bad sectors, but generally with good disk management the performance of the disk overall isn't going to degrade all that much unless it's an extreme situation.  This is not the case with flash memory - when things start wearing out (and they will), you will start to see performance degradation on a more global scale.  SSD drives employ "wear leveling" to help combat this, but SD cards do not. 

If the buffer memory on the 70D is significantly smaller than that of the 680 or other multichannel recorders, then to me it's quite logical that the 70D is thus more "picky" with memory cards because cards because a device with a larger write buffer will be able to better compensate for the reduced physical performance of older and/or new but lower-performing cards that now have fewer good sectors to write to.  That problem is amplified when recording multiple simultaneous data streams as is the case in audio recording.  This is just a theory on my part, but I'd say it's a plausible one.  Remember that a card's rating from the manufacturer is based on burst reads/writes; not continuous streams of data.  Therefore a card may perform like a Class 10 in a DSLR, but absolutely suck wind in an audio recorder because of the difference in how it's being used - even if it's brand new.  That's where media testing becomes important, and where I think Tascam should have had a good list of tested cards ready to go out of the gate upon product release.

I both agree and disagree.  You're right...this point has already been made and there's probably nothing new to discover here.  But to me, this is pretty much the whole reason people are balking at the 'stock response' being given.  Refer above to my comments about how, without additional explanation, that it's not logical if the data throughput on much larger capacity units is fine and this one isn't.  All Tascam needs to do is provide a logical explanation and answer the 'why' question and people will back off.  People aren't stupid (especially here where lots of us are technical minded people that like to know how things work) and right now, without additional information, the responses being provided aren't jiving with logic.

I have no idea what the bold statement above means.  What does card capacity have to do with data throughput?

Also while I somewhat agree with your "people aren't stupid" statement, I think a lot of people here may have just enough rope to hang themselves with, and I'm including myself in that.  I will fully agree however that Tascam needs to look into this more closely and respond with their findings.  Tom's suggestion of sending in cards with errors seems to be a good first step in that direction.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 08:54:39 PM by voltronic »
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stevetoney

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #373 on: September 30, 2015, 09:33:15 PM »
I've asked this before, but I haven't seen an answer:

Has anyone had problems with a card on the *approved* list?

If so, I understand the skepticism and anger.

If not, I simply don't get it. Tascam says their machine only works with *some* and not *all* cards.

If this is a problem for you, don't buy a DR-70d.

Unfortunately for those of us that have been involved with this saga, it's not as simple as your summary, but your summary is the bottom line of where we're at today. 

You said you don't get it.  I'll explain and hopefully it will help you to understand the anxiety being expressed in this thread.

Tascam released the DR70D around the early part of February of this year.  When it was released, it apparently worked fine with all of the cards people threw at it.  (For me, it worked fine with the card I always used in it then at some point it started having issues.)  Nobody reported issues at first and there was no 'approved cards list'.  It quickly became very popular here on ts.com.

In late June, Tascam released v1.11 of their firmware and, whether by coincidence or not, people started reporting glitch problems around the same time.  Pretty soon, the floodgates opened and over the next month or so there were lots of users reporting the same issues. As I recall, there was still no 'approved cards list'.

Tascam told users that the issue was the cards they were using by saying that four track recorders tax the data throughput of cards.  This didn't seem logical to most users that already owned their 70D since a) many had already successfully used cards in the unit, but then they didn't work, and b) many had stated that they'd used the same cards in other multi-track recorders without issue, c) there were a few other reasons why this explanation didn't seem to add up.  A simple question was asked...please explain to us WHY to a) and b)?  No answer was provided...but users were reminded by Tascam that we shouldn't expect pro results from using non-pro cards.  Lots of people expressed their concern with Tascam's unresponsiveness to the basic question WHY?

On August 1, Tascam published the current 'approved cards list' which is showing on their page.  I can't remember if a previous list was posted prior to August 1.  After the 'approved cards list' was published, Tascam's response to the glitch issue is simply to refer users to the approved card list and that's been what's come to be known as the 'stock response' since.

Tascam's marketing information from Day One has stated that the unit accepts SDXC cards up to 128gb.  Not only is the 'approved cards list' very small, but surprisingly there aren't any SDXC cards on the list.  So, a new question for Tascam...how can you be marketing a unit as accepting SDXC cards, when there's not even a single card on the list?  True to form, Tascam comes out after the fact and only last week were we informed of two or three SDXC cards that they'd tested and put on the list. 

Can you start to see a potential pattern here of Tascam covering up after users uncover issues?  Or maybe Tascam is simply late rolling out all of the media support materials.

I can't speak for others...I'm glad Tascam updates the list, but these things need to be done proactively.  Doing these things IN RESPONSE to customer comments is at best, shoddy product roll out, and at worst covering up for potential design flaws/limitations that users are discovering in the DR70D.  Which is it?  I don't really know but I know what it feels like to me.

Hope this helps explain to you why the issue isn't as simple as 'buy an approved card or don't buy the DR70D' for those of us that have had a 70D since the start.

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)
« Reply #374 on: September 30, 2015, 09:48:31 PM »
Would anybody that has an SD card with glitchy audio on it be willing to send it (the SD card) to us for examination?   Doesn't matter if it's on the list or not.

contact via custser@teac.com please.
great idea
You guys can't bitch about this offer

No, I can't bitch about this offer, but something like this should have/could have been the response from Day One. 

But yeah, the bottom line is if we can work together (Tascam and customers with glitchy units) to solve this issue, then I'm OK with Tascam...stuff happens.  So far, that hasn't happened, but this is a good sign.
that's true too, would have been a much better responce from both sides if it was from the get go
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