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Author Topic: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.  (Read 5512 times)

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Offline Brietheimer

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Hello all! First post here. Thanks for having me! I have experience taping live concerts using zoom h1 but am now looking to upgrade to a real setup. I only tape Pretty Lights shows which is an electronic act with some live instruments, DJ, mixing, etc.

My previous recordings sound hollow or dull. (https://soundcloud.com/prettylightslive/sets/2016-08-30-live-jackson-wy) These concerts have a lot of bass and I can seem to figure out what configuration would be best to pick that up. I was leaning towards a MS configuration using a large diaphragm figure 8 condenser and a small diaphragm cardioid condenser pointed directly at center stage. My thought being that the large diaphragm condenser would pick up the bass better. Is this a correct line of thought?

After reading through this forum I am now wondering if I should use 2 small diaphragm super cardioid condensers and have each one point at the stacks.

I am typically recording directly behind soundboard.

I want to pair the microphones with a zoom F3 field recorder. But I'm not really sure about recorders either. Is this a good one?

TIA I look forward to reading all there is to read on this awesome forum!

Offline 2X2

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2023, 04:56:24 AM »
whats your budget?

what percentage of the concerts are open taping vs covert?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2023, 10:02:18 AM »
whats your budget?

what percentage of the concerts are open taping vs covert?

Welcome to the board. These are key answers to provide us so we can help. I had a friend, who has recently passed, who used to record a lot of EDM. We are in possession of his tapes. Many of them were done stealth using Core Sound Binaurals and later he afforded the Core Sound dpa binaural upgrade (Core Sound HEB). EXCELLENT bass pickup with the HEB's.

Quote
After reading through this forum I am now wondering if I should use 2 small diaphragm super cardioid condensers and have each one point at the stacks.
In general, this is a good idea. Although Schoeps is pretty much the only manufacturer of a true "Supercardioid". Be aware typical Shotgun mics are not the supercardioids you see referenced on here.  back to the budget question.  8)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 10:05:11 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2023, 12:37:01 PM »
I was leaning towards a MS configuration using a large diaphragm figure 8 condenser and a small diaphragm cardioid condenser pointed directly at center stage. My thought being that the large diaphragm condenser would pick up the bass better. Is this a correct line of thought?

No additional bass from a large diaphragm microphone in a taper situation.  A small diaphragm will be more appropriate for other reasons.. but the choice between of them is very limited and most are costly, so a switchable large diaphragm microphone which you have access to that offers a fig-8 pattern can be a practical option.  An inexpensive small diaphragm fig-8 that works well as a Side channel for Mid/Side is the Naiant X-8.  I use a couple of them to good effect in this role - https://naiant.com/custom_audio_reproduction_equipment/product_spec/x-8-8s-specification/

The X-8 has quite good bass response, but most of the bass in a Mid/Side recording comes from the Mid microphone.  A cardioid with good bass response will likely work well.  A subcardioid or omni Mid will have greater sensitivity to low bass, but less clarity up top at a distance due to the more open pattern.

Quote
After reading through this forum I am now wondering if I should use 2 small diaphragm super cardioid condensers and have each one point at the stacks.

I am typically recording directly behind soundboard.

That stereo microphone arrangement will provide the most clarity and detail with the least room sound possible from such a recording position. To make the most of pointing the microphones directly at the PA speakers (abbreviated as PAS for Point At Stacks around here), you can determine what the optimal spacing between the two microphones should be based on the PAS angle between them.  Details on that here.  But to start.. and if you don't want to mess around with changing spacing between the microphones based on PAS angle.. about 12" or so between the microphones generally works well.

Supercardioids have less sensitivity to low bass due to their pattern, but good ones will still have smooth content all the way down which can be EQ'd to bring up the bass as needed.  Live EDM is very bass heavy with more bass than can be easily reproduced, so some attenuation of low frequency energy in the recording is likely to be advantageous as long as the response remains smooth.  For that reason good supercards can be a good fit for bass heavy music without needing the application of EQ.

Quote
I want to pair the microphones with a zoom F3 field recorder. But I'm not really sure about recorders either. Is this a good one?

Many TS members use that recorder and really like it.   All of the F-series Zooms are good choices.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline loughney

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2023, 09:45:56 PM »
My basic setup was SoundProfessionals SP-CMC-4U stereo mics with Sony A10, which can be controlled by your phone via Bluetooth.  Step-up option would be looking at Schoeps, but that's a big step-up.  You might want to look at bass roll-off for EDM.  Also, you want to experiment how close you are to the stack / loudspeakers.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2023, 10:24:52 PM »

A lot of advice people could offer you depends on your budget and whether or not you are doing this out in the open with permission. I'm guessing that since you are talking about using an LD mic for a mid/side arrangement that you are out in the open.

Depending on your capability/willingness to do post processing work to decode and dial in the mix of a mid/side pair you may want to just get a pair of cardioid small diaphragm microphones. There's loads of them on the market in every price range. Pick a few types to audition by listening to some recordings made with them on the Live Music Archive and pick the ones that sound the best to you that are in your price range. M/S is adjustable after the fact in post but I think you get more flexibility with a pair of small diaphragm mics.

I've done a fair amount of M/S live recordings and I've found that it works best for me up front, on or right at the lip of the stage. Farther back not so much.

If you didn't want to spend a ton of money you'd be hard pressed to do better than a pair of Line Audio mics and a Zoom F3 recorder. Cables, memory and batteries and you are ready to roll.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2023, 10:13:17 AM »
^ Good points. Line Audio microphones perform well as taper mics, represent a good value, and can work well in a booth near-spaced stereo pair configuration and as the Mid microphone of a Mid/Side coincident pair.   

Like Goodcooker I also generally prefer non-coincident stereo microphone configurations from recording positions located farther back.  A basic generalization I've found is that preferentially, the spacing between a stereo microphone pair be made increasingly wider as the recording position is shifted farther from the stage.  This corresponds well with the PAS technique of pointing the microphones directly at the PA speakers for best clarity, because the angle between the two microphones grows increasingly narrower as the recording position is shifted farther away from the stage and PA.  The result of this relationship is a gradual hand-off between more angle and less spacing up close, verses more spacing and less angle between microphones from farther away.

This corresponds with the two primary modes of human directional hearing perception- level differences between channels, produced as a consequence of the angle between the two microphones, and time-of-arrival differences, produced as a consequence of the spacing between them.

Although strongly leveraging that relationship in your recording efforts may or may not be easily achievable or practical, it is is an important fundamental stereo relationship to be aware of. 

Many tapers choose to use a single near-spaced stereo pair configuration all the time.  That's simple and easy, often implemented these days is via a 3-d printed microphone bar to which the microphones are attached, made so as to be specific to the microphones being used, with them snapping into place.  That generally works well as it is simple and most tapers are recording from more or less the same distance from the stage most of the time.  And even when used from a different position where another combination of angle and spacing would be better, the resulting recording is not likely to suffer greatly as a result of the less than optimal stereo microphone arrangement, it just won't be as good as it could have been.  Some tapers carry an additional bar or two with a somewhat different angle/spacing combination to accommodate various recording scenarios.  Others use non-specific mounting bars that allow for a wide range of angle and spacing adjustments and set things up to suit the specific scenario.  And others build their own mounting gear which provides as much flexibility as they desire and/or find practical to implement.

Taping can be very simple and need not be complicated in this way, yet rewards this kind of attention to detail for those who are really into it.

Anyway.. welcome to TS!  We're here to help guide you in balancing practicality and possibility in finding your own comfort zone that lies somewhere between ease and perfection.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Twenty8

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2023, 07:24:19 PM »
Berliner CM33.  Not expensive, but not easy to track down.  Not sure if they are still sold retail.  Sold my set about a month and a half ago; great for heavy bass.
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Offline adrianf74

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2023, 09:30:01 PM »
I think there's as many answers as there are people on this board.

Many of us have been doing this for years and decades (I started my 'hobby' back in July 1992) so that's some 31 years of taping.  I've owned practically every set of small mic that exists out there (from AIWA and Sony Lapel/Tie Mics, to Core Sounds Binaurals and Giant Squid Audio Labs (yes, those pieces of crap), to Sound Professionals CMC-4's and CMC-8's, to Church Audio CA-10, CA-11 and CA-14's, to DPA 4061's to capsules with actives (AKG CK61 and CK63 with Naiant Actives and nBob Actives as well as Schoeps MK41 and MK22's with Naiant Actives).  All sorts of battery box / preamp / etc. solutions as well.  I also own Line Audio CM3 subcards.  For recorders, I've owned everything from Analog Walkmans, to Sony Pro Walkmans, to Portable DAT machines, MiniDisc Recorders and Digitial Recorders (Edirol/Roland R-09, Sony M10, Tascam DR-2D, Sony A10 and then larger XLR based recorders including a Tascam DR-60D, DR-70D, DR-701D, Zoom F4 and currently run a Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (and am not looking to move from that as it does everything I need it to do and has yet to fail me).

Is one set of mics 'better' than another - you bet.  Is the price difference between Line Audio and Schoeps worth it?  That's going to be up to you.  To give you an idea, I've had the best mics available to me (Schopes MK41's) that had to be located by the soundboard at one venue which sounds like crap by that point and have used my Church Audio CA-14's with Ugly Battery Box in the sweet spot, and I'll take the Church Audio CA-14 recording EVERY time.  The best mics weren't in the best spot.

Now, all things being equal, if the soundboard area is the sweet spot -- then most definitely by the best mics you can get.  Do you need Schoeps?  Most likely not.  Will the bug get you at some point down the road and will you to upgrade -- quite possibly.  For me, I stuck with my CK63 nBob Actives because the financial outlay was more reasonable than the MK41's (about US$800-1K difference).  The CK63's sound great to me in most of my captures (I just used them a few nights ago in a not-so open environment and they sounded good for what it was).  If you're able to get a board feed and then are mixing that feed with your mics, the mics won't matter as much as the location of where they are (again, sweet spot versus being stuck at a board).  If you're simply capturing room tone, and you're forced to be at the board area, then it'll depend on what it sounds like back there.

Berliner CM33's are good... Line Audio puts out some good, affordable, product. 

Welcome to your journey down the rabbit hole.
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Offline RyanJ

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2023, 07:51:02 AM »
I usually tape the DJ sets I go see. I would really recommend the AT853s with the (4.7k mod). Reason being, less stuff to bring in and they can handle the SPLs of an electronic show. Specifically the low end.

Here is a sample of Tale of Us in Miami I did with the ATs and an A10. Left this above the relay stack and capturing the main PA stacks.

https://soundcloud.com/ryan_jonik/tale-of-us-2021-12-03-miami-circoloco-island-gardens
http://www.ninlive.com - The Nine Inch Nails Live Archive
http://www.ryanjonik.com - My Music Archive Blog
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2023, 07:54:48 AM »
Where is the OP?
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2023, 09:00:40 AM »
Working up to a second post?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Novice taper looking for suggestions for taping "EDM" shows.
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2023, 11:04:12 AM »
Working up to a second post?
LOTS of great responses. OP, any decisions made yet?
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

 

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