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Offline robeti

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Mk22 advice wanted
« on: February 23, 2024, 09:36:56 AM »
Just bought a set of matched mk22 caps.
I have mk4 and mk41 already.
I use them in a dina bar (stealth) or pointed at stacks.

What's a good configuration for the mk22s?
Thanks!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
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Offline tgakidis

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2024, 11:02:20 AM »
I’m just ran them NOS for Govt Mule when I was 11th row. 
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Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2024, 11:57:27 AM »
Would stealthing dina them be okay?
In a hat dina is the best I can do.
Looking forward to use these!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2024, 11:59:22 AM »
I’m just ran them NOS for Govt Mule when I was 11th row.

You have a lot of mics BTW. Makes me feel less bad for  not selling my non Schoeps gear haha :yack:
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2024, 01:16:51 PM »
Generally, if you like the stereo width and imaging qualities you are getting using MK4 in your current arrangements, you can most closely maintain those same stereo qualities with the more open MK22 pattern in a couple different ways: Use a bit more spacing while retaining the same angle between mics, or uses a bit more angle between mics while retaining the same spacing. Or a bit of both. If there is a baffle between the mics, such as your head, those angle and spacing tweaks will matter less.

Regardless, you'll get more open sounding room and ambience and possibly a bit more low end in the recording, which are differences that might be hard to parse from the change in stereo width and imaging.

A good strategy would be to start with the same configuration you are using for MK4 and see how you like it.  Then try a bit more angle or spacing or both and compare, adjusting from there.
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Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2024, 06:52:43 PM »
Thanks much!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline unclehoolio

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2024, 11:29:29 PM »
Generally, if you like the stereo width and imaging qualities you are getting using MK4 in your current arrangements, you can most closely maintain those same stereo qualities with the more open MK22 pattern in a couple different ways: Use a bit more spacing while retaining the same angle between mics...

Second this approach, maintain whatever angle you would use with cards, just increase the spacing / time of arrival difference between capsules.

I’m just ran them NOS for Govt Mule when I was 11th row.

That would've also been my choice under those circumstances.
mics:  AKG c480b (x6) + ck61, ck62, & ck63
pre:  2 x Oade m148
recorder:  Zoom F8n Pro; Tascam HD-P2 (with Oade High Definition mod)

Online goodcooker

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2024, 12:12:26 PM »
In a hat dina is the best I can do.

I've used my MBHO subcardioid mics in a dinA mount many times when onstage or up close. Works great. From farther back you may not get the separation in the stereo image as much as you may like but give it a try and see if it works out. It was my goto arrangement in a few different places despite the "conventional wisdom".

If it's "what you can do" I say go for it.

If you are out in the open and can get more separation between them then that is a good idea. I use my directional mics quite often with ~25CM separation and less than 90 degree angle.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 12:48:03 PM by goodcooker »
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Offline andyjah

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2024, 12:32:02 PM »
I run them NOS usually. On stage I will do a wide ortf. If further back in a venue NOS width with them at 60 degrees rather than 90 degrees.

Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2024, 07:32:55 AM »
Thanks for the good advice everyone!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline morst

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2024, 01:39:05 PM »
I like wide card split on downstage lip, spread 6-12 feet apart, aimed at snare drum for loud shows, and mix with SBD feed.
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Offline checht

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2024, 07:38:31 PM »
MK22s are my favorite caps these days. I've had 21s and 4s, now use 41s and 22s.
I ran NOS once but didn't love it. I tend to A/B with 4' split in OMT4 config, or run ORTF spacing with more like 150º angle.

Love 'em!
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2024, 10:36:36 PM »
The stereo mounting bar that Schoeps sells for this capsule type (STC 22), which I normally use with them, has a 110º angle between the capsules' main axes as in standard ORTF. But the spacing between diaphragm centers is 21 cm rather than 17. That's so that the resulting stereophonic recording angle comes out the same as standard ORTF with cardioids, or about 100º.

That recording angle will be slightly narrower if you use CMC 1L amplifiers or CCMs rather than Colette active cables since the bodies are slightly longer. People are using CMC 1L or CCM setups nowadays more often than KC (active) cables--even Schoeps' own Web site shows the mounting bars with CCMs rather than active cables--but Schoeps hasn't shortened the mounting bars accordingly. I think it might be advisable for them to do so, though.

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 10:43:55 PM by DSatz »
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Offline C.Clark

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2024, 12:17:18 PM »
I tend to like to split my wide cardioid's 1-3 feet in most circumstances and I'd split them further, like 6ft or more if I'm at a venue where that's feasible.  They can be incredible in the right room with a decent split.  You will definitely get more low end with them especially if you are putting them off axis, ie. going beyond just pointing them at stacks and going beyond 90 degrees.  I usually have mine setup to help fill in the low end in my 6 mic mix.
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Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2024, 07:11:19 AM »
Thanks for all advice!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2024, 10:06:04 AM »
Thanks for all advice!

I owned these and they were, by far, my favourite Schoeps caps to run and I pulled some AMAZING recordings with them.  Depending on if a show was mixed mono (and in many cases, the ones down on the "beach" in Toronto were), I would simply pick a stack and stand about five or six rows back with my hat tilted towards the speakers.   I generally do PAS when using a hat anyhow... if I could only own one set of caps, these would probably be it.
Mics: Neumann KK 184 capsules with nBob Actives and Naiant PFAs | Decks: Zoom F6 and Zoom F3 w/ BTA-1 | Power: Neewer NP-F750 7000mAh | Camera: DJI Osmo Action 4

Offline morst

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2024, 12:46:43 AM »
Wide card is mathematically halfway between cardioid and omni.
In a good sounding spot, these should be the semi-directional butter!


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Offline adrianf74

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2024, 01:53:24 PM »
Wide card is mathematically halfway between cardioid and omni.
In a good sounding spot, these should be the semi-directional butter!


 :headphones: :headphones: :headphones:
Most likely the reason I love my Line Audio CM3's.  Definitely not the same mic but a lot more affordable.
Mics: Neumann KK 184 capsules with nBob Actives and Naiant PFAs | Decks: Zoom F6 and Zoom F3 w/ BTA-1 | Power: Neewer NP-F750 7000mAh | Camera: DJI Osmo Action 4

Offline checht

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2024, 10:36:52 PM »
The mk22s have become my favorite caps, and I've used 4s, 5s, 21s, and 41s. When deployed properly, their sound is everything I'm looking for: detailed yet expansive, warm but not dark, and capable of great imagining and a rock solid sound stage.

I use them 4' split in an OMT4 config, with 41s in the center, outdoors and in reasonable-sounding rooms. Also, had I Nick modify my actives to put a binder m & f inline on one cable, so I can use a binder extension cable to split them as much as 17'. Most commonly, I split them 6' to 14' onstage, about a foot up from the lip, at 8"-10" off the deck, and they are amazing in that setting, producing a wonderful, clearly separated image. Matrix with a pair of 41s ortf above the drums, and vocals off the monitor mixer. Getting my best recordings of Steely Dead this way, to my ears.

Here's an example, a bit of soundcheck from Kona:
https://archive.org/details/sd2024-02-24.matrix
About 2 minutes in, during the keys solo, is a good example of the sound stage, w keys & guitar on L, drums C-R, and bass R.

After 40+ years of recording, learning so much these days. What a blast!
MK41s, MK22s; Vanguard V1s matched pair; Niaint x8
Schoeps kcy5, nbob actives
Naiant PFA 60v, PFA 48v, IPA
Sound Devices MP-6II; Sony PCM-A10

Recordings at LMA

Offline robeti

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2024, 10:34:15 AM »
Thanks much!
I just got home from recording Black Pumas. I was 5th row from the stage.
I used the mk22s in a dina hat mount.
My first impressions: much more omni sound than cardioid sound. Full rich sound without being too bass heavy. The show was very bass heavy but the mk22s capture this beautiful without being boomy. It will require a bit more work in post (screamers, clapping etc.) I think I prefer this sound over cardioid and hyper cardioid.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 10:36:58 AM by robeti »
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2024, 05:27:13 PM »
Thanks much!
I just got home from recording Black Pumas. I was 5th row from the stage.
I used the mk22s in a dina hat mount.
My first impressions: much more omni sound than cardioid sound. Full rich sound without being too bass heavy. The show was very bass heavy but the mk22s capture this beautiful without being boomy. It will require a bit more work in post (screamers, clapping etc.) I think I prefer this sound over cardioid and hyper cardioid.

There are times where the 41's are clutch but if you're up close, the 22's are gold as you've just learned.
Mics: Neumann KK 184 capsules with nBob Actives and Naiant PFAs | Decks: Zoom F6 and Zoom F3 w/ BTA-1 | Power: Neewer NP-F750 7000mAh | Camera: DJI Osmo Action 4

Online goodcooker

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2024, 08:12:38 PM »
Thanks much!
I just got home from recording Black Pumas. I was 5th row from the stage.
I used the mk22s in a dina hat mount.
My first impressions: much more omni sound than cardioid sound. Full rich sound without being too bass heavy. The show was very bass heavy but the mk22s capture this beautiful without being boomy. It will require a bit more work in post (screamers, clapping etc.) I think I prefer this sound over cardioid and hyper cardioid.

I ran my HO subcards in dina quite often. The high end is very directional but the low end seemed to end up sounding very mono due to the caps being placed close together. I did it this way to minimize my footprint when recording onstage same idea as what you can fit in a hat. Best compromise for the result.
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mk22 advice wanted
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2024, 12:36:15 PM »
There are times where the 41's are clutch but if you're up close, the 22's are gold as you've just learned.

The mk22s have become my favorite caps, and I've used 4s, 5s, 21s, and 41s. When deployed properly, their sound is everything I'm looking for: detailed yet expansive, warm but not dark, and capable of great imagining and a rock solid sound stage.

I use them 4' split in an OMT4 config, with 41s in the center, outdoors and in reasonable-sounding rooms. [snip]

Don't mean to take this OT, but one of the design intentions of OMT4 is to accommodate a wide range of taper situations via the ability to tweak the balance between the two very different yet complementary stereo pairs by leaning a bit more on one verses the other as needed, sometimes even working cross-balances between the two.  Open patterns like Mk22 and mk21 are particularly attractive for this as I see them as inhabiting something of a sweet spot over on the omni side side of continuum of pickup patterns, with super/hypercardioid inhabiting a similar position on the opposite bi-directional side, and the 50/50 "cardioid-compromise" inhabiting the middle.  The pattern-continuum sweet spots strike me as being not 100% omni nor 100% bi-directional fig-8, nor a straight 50/50 combination of the two like a straight cardioid, but more of a Goldilocks "just right" balance on either side.  Seems to make an especially good combination when both pairs are arranged to work together and support each other as a team without elbowing in too much on what the other does well.

An interesting irony is that OMT4 still works and remains robust when setup the inverse way. That is, setup either in the typical way with the highly directional pair in the center (X/Y supercards, say) with the more open pattern pair spaced out to either side, or in the opposite way with the more open pattern in the coincident center (say as a Mid/Side pair with mk22 Mid, mk8 Side) and the more directional supercard pair spaced out to either side of that in PAS.

Over the past weekend I was going through some SD cards and ended up listening to an OMT4 setup I recorded a few years back similar to that, which used a much more open MG cardioid as Mid in the center M/S pair and MG m21 supercards in the wide pair positions.  Direct PA clarity was primarily contributed by the wider spaced supercard pair while the ambience, depth, sense of space and dimension were primarily contributed by the more open-cardioidish M/S center pair, rather than the other way around.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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