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Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: acidjack on January 11, 2012, 11:38:59 AM
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I realize Jon may be needed to answer some of these questions, but he's a busy man, and user experience is kind of king here.
First, a very basic question: Does a light of some kind come on when the battery is low on the littlebox/tinybox? I believe that's the case for littlebox, at least.
Update: Naiant page says on the tinybox the LED turns red at 20%. I assume this is the same for the littlebox?
Second, what are people's experiences with how long you have once said light comes on?
See above
Third, if you have the internal li-ion - do you periodically drain it to zero and recharge just to keep the battery "healthy"?
Beyond that, among the many many configs, what have you experienced as your runtimes with:
littlebox (9V) at P48
littlebox (9V) at P16 ("low")
littlebox (li-ion) at P48
littlebox (li-ion) at P16
littlebox w/ KCY/9V (which should always be used on "low" power as I understand it)
littlebox w/ KCY/li-ion
littlebox w/ NBox Cables
tinybox
tinybox w/ KCY
tinybox w/ NBox cables
I've gotten roughly 4.5hrs with a littlebox/9V/P48
Have never pushed the limits with the KCY/li-ion one I have, but have gotten over 4hrs.
I believe someone just posted that he got 40(!!!) hrs with a tinybox/NBox cables combo.
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Interested to know too, I'm waiting on an LB.
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Considering all the different littlebox/tinybox configurations, and all the variables involved, this might be an instance where theory trumps practice.
From my own experience, I have never run down my littlebox nor run it long enough for the low battery indicator to come on. For most of its life though, I have run it at the low voltage setting (~20v) rather than at 48v since my Milabs and my Beyers are spec'd for 12-48v operation. At the low 20v setting, it should be good for 20-24hours of operation, so no shock that I haven't run it down. I've more recently been running it at 48v, which should be good for 10+ hours, and have never run it down.
All that said, if you want to make sense of any of this, you need to know the full details from the reporting user.
In my case, I have an early 1st gen LB that allowed user-specified inamps, and I requested Burr-Brown chips that I think draw 3-4ma per channel, whereas the latest gen LB's use a standard amp (forgot what it is Jon is using now) that draws something like 1ma/channel, maybe less.
I run mics (depending on which I use) that draw either 4.6ma/mic or 4ma/mic. Other mics might only draw ~2.5ma/mic. So between my mics and non-standard amps, my littlebox might be drawing twice what another person's littlebox is drawing, and I should expect half the battery life.
I also got the first ever li-ion put into a littlebox (requested Jon to do it for me, and he made it an option). IIRC, I have a 2000ma-hr battery in my littlebox, whereas the last/latest littleboxes use a 1400ma-hr battery I believe. So on that basis, my LB should provide ~40% better life compared to a typical li-ion LB, if of course it wasn't configured with inamps that draw 3x the current of the standard inamps.
Confusing enough yet?
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Beyond user experiences, it might be useful if Jon can provide a basic formula for estimating battery life, which will depend on his designs for the LB and TB.
For instance, I'm not sure it is right, but here is how I estimate my expected battery life on my LB:
Using the following variables and assumptions --
Vph = phantom voltage level, either high (48v) or low (21v)
Vb = nominal li-ion voltage level, assume 7.4v, further degraded by 0.6v to get from nominal to actual (or thus assume 6.8v in practice)
VCeff = efficiency of the DC-DC voltage conversion, converting Vb up to Vph. I'm assuming 75% or 0.75
Iamp = current draw for one channel from the inamp. I believe mine to be ~3.5ma/ch
Iph = current draw for phantom power for your mics, based on spec sheet mine is 4.6ma/ch
Iother = current draw of other stuff in the LB, particularly say the LEDs. I'm saying 5ma
Cb = capacity of the li-ion battery. Mine is 2000ma-hr, which I'd degrade by assuming 90% actual
Itot = total current draw of the littlebox
LIFEb = battery life in hours
Those are the variables, formulas would be:
Itot = {[Vph/(Vb-0.6v)]/VCeff} * 2ch*(Iamp + Iph) + Iother
LIFEb = Cb/Itot * 90%
For me, at 48v phantom that would be:
Itot = {48/(7.4v-0.6v)]/0.75} * 2ch*(3.5ma + 4.6ma) + 5ma
Itot = 157ma draw
LIFEb = 2000ma-hr/157ma * 90%
LIFEb = ~11 hours
Otherwise:
If I did the same mics at low power phantom (21v), the total current draw Itot = 72ma draw
And the battery life LIFEb = 25 hours
I'm not sure that formula is exact, but I think it gets me somewhat close to estimated battery life. Jon's input on this approach and if possible a generic approach for LB's and TB's could be helpful.
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I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!! I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power.
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I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!! I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power.
I'll let Jon confirm, but the point is that the powering to the KCY is the same whether you run it on "HIGH" or "LOW"; the KCY input overrides that feature (for the KCY, not the XLR).
In practice, I don't know whether therefore setting it to "LOW" is saving you batt life or not, but I always do that, just in case.
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I'm almost positive Jon told me you have more battery on low, but less head room. IIRC
I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!! I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power.
I'll let Jon confirm, but the point is that the powering to the KCY is the same whether you run it on "HIGH" or "LOW"; the KCY input overrides that feature (for the KCY, not the XLR).
In practice, I don't know whether therefore setting it to "LOW" is saving you batt life or not, but I always do that, just in case.
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A-ha!
From the man himself:
Jon,
Do you happen to know if, to run the littlebox with the KCY, I must
set the power to "HIGH", or is the "LOW" setting intended to be
sufficient? I know the Schoeps CMR do not require full P48, but it
was not clear to me whether that was also the case with the KCY.
Thanks again for your hard work.
Naiant Studio music@naiant.com
11/10/11
to me
The KCY gets the same power on either setting, so you should use the low power setting.
Doesn't clarify whether the current draw/batt life changes, but there you go.
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I would guess that if it draws the same power then the battery life would be the same??? ???
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A v2 KCY littlebox will create two power rails: 130V (!) and 48V, or 60V and 21V. The high polarization voltage is regulated down to 60V for the KCY in either case. The amp supply is regulated down from 48V to a max of 31V, or 20V at 21V. The low-volt supply for the KCY is 6V, that is also regulated down from 48V or 21V--not terribly efficient, but it's <1mA between the two channels. There is practically no current draw in the high-volt rail, just a couple of bleeder resistors that use about 0.1mA.
So you have more headroom in the amp at high power, but shorter runtime.
I thought I remembered you telling me that high power created more head room.
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48v LB w/ AA Battery Sled/With Out xformers, I got around 8-10 hours ;)
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man i am lost, lol
but with my lb and a rc battery i got about 7 hrs at 48v
can't wait to see what i get with akg actives and tb >:D
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man i am lost, lol
but with my lb and a rc battery i got about 7 hrs at 48v
can't wait to see what i get with akg actives and tb >:D
I really hope the AKG Actives come to fruition bro :) I might even snag a ck63>TB setup and rock out some AKG's again. But I aint selling anything to get em ;) Just keep adding more and more gear to my arsenal ;)
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I believe someone just posted that he got 40(!!!) hrs with a tinybox/NBox cables combo.
Yup, that is true... Here's what I wrote to Jon:
I just tested the tinybox with the nbox actives and the mk41s. I fully charged it, used my r09hr to tape a continous tone from my computer speakers. The volume was set quite low, and the r09hr was set to max input level. The tinybox was set on high gain. It worked continously for 41 hours and 15 minutes...! The sound is, as I said, just a continous tone, so it's impossible to say if the recording sounds fine until the end, but I can't hear anything not right...
And this is Jon's reply (he originally said he expected around 20 hours battery life):
That is probably a typical battery life then; I didn't know the exact current draw of the nbox actives so I guessed on the high side. Nothing will change with the battery life and those mics unless the load on the output is much higher--headphones, for example.
-c
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Thats good to know!
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My LittleBox
has dual internal 7.2v Li-Ion batteries, and I can power my Milab VM 44's at 48v for about 30 hours!
Stellar!
Even at a festival I can occasionally get a little charge action so this is the best deal, no external battery or non rechargables!
I have yet to try the 20v option but I bet it would run hella long time... ;D
--Ian
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I can run my Busman Actives>LB[Output Transformers] for around 12 hours[8-9hrs SAFELY] at +48v Phantom.
And I can run my Schoeps mk41s>LB[Output Transformers- for a WHOPPING 18hrs or so at +48v Phantom so lets say [15 hours SAFELY] ;D
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Oh and thats using my 4xAA Battery sled, with 2300mah Energizer AA's and a Powerizer MH-C9000 charger ;)
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Don't want to confuse this thread with another question.....I have a first generation littlebox with a 6v powering ( 4 1.5 AA's). I have also an external power input ( jon wrote me that it can hold up to 15 volts).
Do you know if:
1) I can use a li-ion battery as an external power source)
2) I can use an AC adapter and plug the little box in a wall socket?
thanks alot
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1. Yes
2. I wouldnt suggest that altho i guess it COULD be done :)
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I'm getting very close now to ordering a Tinybox for use with some MK 41Vs and a KCY cable.
The final detail I'm pondering is whether or not to order the box with output transformers. They can't be switchable on the Tinybox, so it's either with them or without them.
- Does anyone have useful (i.e. A/B, all other equipment the same) samples of the sound with and without the transformers? I hear very positive things about the effect of having the transformers, but at the same time, even an effect that was pleasing to the ear kind of clashes with the idea of using high quality microphones, purchased for their faithful reproduction of the actual sound on the night. I thus can't make up my mind about whether I want such colouration, no matter how pleasant sounding, but not being able to even hear it before I buy certainly doesn't help, either.
- Secondly, and less subjectively, what does having the output transformers do to battery life?
Cheers guys,
Ian
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The easy answer is that transformers are passive devices, and have no effect on battery life.
As to the sound, I've got switchable output transformers in my Littlebox. I ran the LB without trafos for a couple years, then got it upgraded to includes them. My general impression is that I like the sound with them better, and I always run with them engaged.
Unfortunately though, I've never tried to do any kind of comparison with or without them. The only thing I could really do is do one set with them engaged and another set of the same band on the same night without them engaged, but I haven't even done that.
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I'm getting very close now to ordering a Tinybox for use with some MK 41Vs and a KCY cable.
41V's? Did you mean 4vs?
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41V's? Did you mean 4vs?
No, 41Vs. Why? ???
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The easy answer is that transformers are passive devices, and have no effect on battery life.
You can tell I know nothing in this area. Thanks. Jon confirmed the same in e-mail.
As to the sound, I've got switchable output transformers in my Littlebox. I ran the LB without trafos for a couple years, then got it upgraded to includes them. My general impression is that I like the sound with them better, and I always run with them engaged.
Unfortunately though, I've never tried to do any kind of comparison with or without them. The only thing I could really do is do one set with them engaged and another set of the same band on the same night without them engaged, but I haven't even done that.
I suppose the only way to make them switchable in the Tinybox is to buy 2 Tinyboxes, one with and one without, try them both and then sell on the version you like the least. ;D
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41V's? Did you mean 4vs?
No, 41Vs. Why? ???
I think it's in reference to your other question about a top-shelf cardioid mic.
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I think it's in reference to your other question about a top-shelf cardioid mic.
Oh, as opposed to a hypercardioid, you mean? Sorry, when I said cardioids, I meant the whole spectrum of wides to hypers.
As it happens, I thought I probably would end up with a pure cardioid, but Acidjack has kind of convinced me that I'll like the 41 more than the 4.
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Can you say about when you get noticeable saturation? I thought it was more like 0dbV to +6dbV that it kicked in, so I've been running somewhat hot too to get the saturation effect.
If it starts more like -10dbV, maybe I'll dial things down a bit.
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I think it's in reference to your other question about a top-shelf cardioid mic.
Oh, as opposed to a hypercardioid, you mean? Sorry, when I said cardioids, I meant the whole spectrum of wides to hypers.
As it happens, I thought I probably would end up with a pure cardioid, but Acidjack has kind of convinced me that I'll like the 41 more than the 4.
And because there is exactly one person on this board that owns 41vs (to my knowledge), because there very few sources for that capsule on the archive, and because it is Schoeps most expensive capsule. If you can afford it, by all means, but given it's limited availability to audition, I don't think it is necessarily wise to consider as a first capsule purchase. ymmv
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I have boer runningpbanlb w outnxformers adninlovoe otherbsiund
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I have boer runningpbanlb w outnxformers adninlovoe otherbsiund
???
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I have boer runningpbanlb w outnxformers adninlovoe otherbsiund
I thought I understood Yinzer dialect, but I need help with this one ;D ;)
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I think it's in reference to your other question about a top-shelf cardioid mic.
Oh, as opposed to a hypercardioid, you mean? Sorry, when I said cardioids, I meant the whole spectrum of wides to hypers.
As it happens, I thought I probably would end up with a pure cardioid, but Acidjack has kind of convinced me that I'll like the 41 more than the 4.
I told you this via PM also, but I second hi and lo's comment re the 41Vs.
If you look at the freq response charts:
http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk41/graphics
http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk41v/graphics
The V has a slight rise at 10kHz.... very slight...
Nothing like the much more significant rise at 5kHz that the 4V has: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk4v/graphics
or the MK5: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk5/graphics
Also, the greater directionality of the 41 series mics generally gives you less of a need for that HF bump when taping...
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I agrees acid jack and go the mk41/mk41v/ccm41v route
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Well it's not an on/off switch, but yes it is more noticeable at 0dBV. However, distortion is measured with steady amplitude sine waves but program material is not like that. So a -10dBV RMS recording will have +6dBV peak, or more. That means the LF peaks in the recording will saturate the same as a +3dBV RMS sine wave.
Actually with the PA rock music I record, the peaks are only 6-8db higher than the average level -- not much dynamic range. :-\
I've been shooting for an average output of about 0dbV, thinking that would get me mainly in the range of 0-6dbV for saturation effects. Sounds like that might get me into the circa 6dbV and beyond range and getting some serious LF distortion. Maybe dialing it back just a bit is a good idea.
If you push the level much beyond +6dBV the LF peaks will get seriously bent, which may be what you want. It's kind of fun to watch on a scope . . . which probably just means I need a hobby :-[
Odd, I was thinking that sounded like fun for a hobby.
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I own 41v and they are great caps i ran 41s for years and switched over to 41v when i had the chance of a life time to get them.I run them up close (FOB) in the back they always do good,with the leomosax or with the vms5u is a smoker.
http://archive.org/details/paf2011-12-10
http://archive.org/details/nmas2012-04-01.mk41v
http://archive.org/details/Dumpsta2012-02-09
I think it's in reference to your other question about a top-shelf cardioid mic.
Oh, as opposed to a hypercardioid, you mean? Sorry, when I said cardioids, I meant the whole spectrum of wides to hypers.
As it happens, I thought I probably would end up with a pure cardioid, but Acidjack has kind of convinced me that I'll like the 41 more than the 4.
And because there is exactly one person on this board that owns 41vs (to my knowledge), because there very few sources for that capsule on the archive, and because it is Schoeps most expensive capsule. If you can afford it, by all means, but given it's limited availability to audition, I don't think it is necessarily wise to consider as a first capsule purchase. ymmv
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^^^ Sound-wise, how do you think they compare/contrast to the regular 41s?
Your recordings would seem to confirm they don't have the HF emphasis that the 4Vs do. Beautiful low end though - maybe even richer than the 41s.
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I have a littlebox, with an unusual mod for my T12 powered mics, usually run on "low power". I run it off a 9.6v RC car battery. It's an 8 cell NiMH shrinkwrapped together. I don't remember the miAH, but it's a lot less than a DVD battery, maybe 2600 or something like that.
I charged up an RC battery, check with voltmeter, it says about 10.5v. Do a typical evening show... 3 hours or so. Checked it with a voltmeter, still right up there, did another evening show. And another show. After the 3rd night on the same charge, the battery is down to 9.3 or something like that. It probably would have gone another night, but I decided it was time to put it on the charger. I'm confident I can get "all day" with one battery in a festival setting.
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In an unrelated incident... I had a flakey battery cable going to the RC car battery, and I had 4xAA batteries in the internal tray, which had been in there for a long time. One night at a show, without my realizing it, the RC car battery apparently lost connection, and it failed over to the AA's. The AA's were pretty worn out, and the recording died slowly an hour later. Now I have a set of AA's in my bag, but not inserted into the littlebox. If I have another external battery problem, I want to know about it. I'll hopefully notice it kicking in/out during setup, and then I'll switch over to AA's consciously. Failover of any hardware/software system is a good thing, but I want to KNOW it's failed over.
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Your recordings would seem to confirm they don't have the HF emphasis that the 4Vs do. Beautiful low end though - maybe even richer than the 41s.
The plots would suggest similar findings.
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Kingkita has no clue wtf he's talkin about. Mk41s rule ur face mon :)
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Related question- what is approximate charge time of a fully or nearly depleted battery on the tinybox?
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Related question- what is approximate charge time of a fully or nearly depleted battery on the tinybox?
Approx 3-4 hours. Probably closer to 3... not long to say the least. I had to re-charge my TB v2.0 from a red-light just the other day.
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Related question- what is approximate charge time of a fully or nearly depleted battery on the tinybox?
Approx 3-4 hours. Probably closer to 3... not long to say the least. I had to re-charge my TB v2.0 from a red-light just the other day.
does anyone know how charged the battery is when you first get it from jon?
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I didn't do a scientific study, but I ran the Tinybox (w output transformers) with MK41's (no bodies) at Rockygrass from around noon till 11PM Saturday, with the very occasional shutdown. A couple hours of charging Sunday morning and it was good to go all day Sunday as well. That's some amazing shit. And the M10 ran all day with 3 bars on a pair of AA's.
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Last night at ABB I showed up and my tinybox power switched got bumped on and had absolutely no battery. I found an outlet and was able to charge for about 35 minutes. I was able to tape the entire show without the low battery light even coming on!
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For those with v2.1 or v2.2 tinyboxes not aware, I have a recall to correct discharge of the battery when the unit is off. The tinyboxes affected are those with rear panel charge indicator LEDs (all were produced this summer). If you don't have a rear panel LED, this does not affect your unit.
What kind of turnaround time am I looking at for the self discharge repair? I want to run the new rig for Phish in KC so may wait till after that to send it back to you.
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I have v1 of the Tinybox. I did some reading and never really saw any accurate battery times, or none that I felt really reflected my set up. With the changes in revisions, etc. I figured that the most accurate info was going to be to charge it to 100%, hit record, and let the puppy run. I started recording with my CCM4>Tinybox>M10 in front of one of my VR-4jr's and Foobar playing random master recordings.
I started around 8pm last night and it was still going at 8am this morning when I left for work. The light on my Tinybox was still green.
My neighbors are going to hate me.
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Note that v1s did *not* have a precision low-battery reference as v1.5 and v2 do.
Meaning what exactly? No LED color change? Will the light still be green when the battery life is discharged to the point where it will no longer power the CCM4's?
I really should have walked up to see if the meters on the M10 were still bouncing.
For what it is worth, my stereo isn't really turned up that loud and my neighbors are from Tennessee so they may like hours and hours of live bluegrass anyway. :P
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CCM4>Tinybox v1>M10
15.5 hours on a full charge.
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Related question- what is approximate charge time of a fully or nearly depleted battery on the tinybox?
I arrived at a show, was getting 'suited up' before entering the venue and discovered my Tinybox Littlebox (with dual internal rechargeables) had been left on and had no juice. I convinced the venue to let me plug in the charger (I bring a bag of stuff I might need, leave it in the car, thankfully the charger was in there) in the box office, let it charge for a little over 30 minutes (before I got too nervous the show would start) and had enough charge to record the first 60 minute set no problem. Between sets charged it some more and recorded the second set with no problem.
I am really impressed and happy about how fast the Littlebox internals recharge. I also have a Tinybox with internal rechargeables and italso seems to charge fast and last a long time.
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After draining my Tinybox of its 15.5 hours of play time I plugged it in at lunch and went back to work. I came home after work and it was fully charged. I will have to watch it closer to determine how fast but as easyed mentions the TB charges fast and lasts a long time.
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Jon, I know on your web site for the v1 you say to use 8.4v regulated DC in to charge to prevent a fire. If I used a 9v DVD battery with the proper plug wired center + would it really be that hazardous? I am trying to figure out a way to charge it in out in the wild and 8.4v is awfully close to a 9v DVD battery.
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No, that is not possible with versions before v2.1, because the charge current must be regulated. You have to use the supplied charger. Using a DVD battery would supply a very large charge current and excess charge voltage to the battery. I do not know if the battery's internal protection circuit would prevent damage in that case.
v2.1 and later can be recharged with external batteries.
Thank you Jon!
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How much batt life is left when the TB first hits red?