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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: Evil Taper on September 06, 2006, 02:09:21 AM
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I playback all of my cds/dvds with a Sony dvd player and I'm curious if buying an audiophile grade cd player will actually add anything to my listening experience. So from anyone with actual in home experience on the subject (and not just convincing yourself it sounds better because you spent a shitload of cash on it) how much differeance does the player actually make?
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It made an apparent difference for me when I went from a Samsung cd/dvd player to a Music Hall cd25 with upgraded op-amps (opa627). The difference was there, but not day and night. The first thing I noticed was that the bass response was "there" compared to the samsung which sounded bright and tinny. I'm sure if I went back and tried the same samsung I would be appalled that I ever used it as a source since my ears have acclimated themselves to the cd-25. FWIW: I bought my cd-25 used on audiogon.
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The $600 msrp mark is where we've found CD players to start making a noticeable difference (about what a stock Music Hall CD 25 costs). The Exposure 2010 S player we carry is $1250. It may seem a little expensive to some, but it sounds as good with a 16 bit audience tape as my Cambridge DVD player (~$500) does with the 24 bit source. It makes music come alive. My dvd player makes music sound like mud with no midrange by comparison. A good player is where it all starts, IMO.
Chris
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A medium upgrade some folks do is the Denon players of the Pioneer Elite players. They offer very good features, and some use Burr-Brown DACs, for a reasonable price.
But honestly, I'm not sure how much of diff you will hear. I'm looking into getting a used Denon or Elite off of Audiogon, but they've been hard to find in my area...
Terry
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I have a pioneer elite DV-45A..I was using a samsung HD-841 (rebranded Toshiba 4960) and from a sound perspective, the music appears to be smoother than the samsung was...not an in your face difference, but there...now keep in mind I use it only as a digital transport as I run digi out to my 3000ES, so I can only attribute what I hear to (1) something I wanted to hear (cant be that) or (2) better transport on the pioneer...from a video perspective though, the picture was miles better...deeper brighter colors...very happy with it...
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I think it's important to distinguish between functions when asking the original question. I find it very easy to hear differences in different DACs, whether internal to the player or external. I've not yet heard a difference in transports (i.e. running different transports to the same external DAC), but I've not done any specific comps on transports (and now that my playback is PC-based, I probably won't).
If you're happy with your transport, I'd suggest trying out an external DAC. I think it'll give you the best bang for the buck. Then, down the road, you may toy around independently with different transports.
Edit to add: I don't know what other gear you have for playback, but IME the better the pre / amp / speakers, the easier it is to hear the DAC differences. So I think first step is to improve the pre / amp / speakers, and then when you're happy with those go for the DAC and/or transport.
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I think it's important to distinguish between functions when asking the original question. I find it very easy to hear differences in different DACs, whether internal to the player or external. I've not yet heard a difference in transports (i.e. running different transports to the same external DAC), but I've not done any specific comps on transports (and now that my playback is PC-based, I probably won't).
If you're happy with your transport, I'd suggest trying out an external DAC. I think it'll give you the best bang for the buck. Then, down the road, you may toy around independently with different transports.
Edit to add: I don't know what other gear you have for playback, but IME the better the pre / amp / speakers, the easier it is to hear the DAC differences. So I think first step is to improve the pre / amp / speakers, and then when you're happy with those go for the DAC and/or transport.
this is good advice all the way around and pretty much in line with my experiences.
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Bring up another related question.
If I use the SPDIF out of my crap DVD player, should it deliver the same info as a nice player using its SPDIF out???
In my mind, I have to say yes, and that the DAC convertor is where difference in sound are heard. I think better construction and materials can improve reading of the disc, but not "sound".
Please someone tell me I'm wrong???
Terry
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Bring up another related question.
If I use the SPDIF out of my crap DVD player, should it deliver the same info as a nice player using its SPDIF out???
In my mind, I have to say yes, and that the DAC convertor is where difference in sound are heard. I think better construction and materials can improve reading of the disc, but not "sound".
Please someone tell me I'm wrong???
Terry
Terry, I'm quite sure what you are saying is correct. Basically, if you are sending digi out, you are using it merely as a transport, which makes what Brian said above pertinent to your question/situation.
Either if you're running analog out or digi out, its the DAC that's going to make the biggest difference. Brown Burr is nice. Evil, if you are running analog out of that sony, I bet you'd hear a difference if you upgraded the cd player (Look into Denon 2900/2910 maybe?). If you're running digital out, I think the difference will probably be much smaller.
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I am of the camp that I feel that the quality of the transport makes a difference...vibration from a crappy structure/transport mechanism or maybe resulting from the stand it is sitting on, conceptually will have an effect.
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I am of the camp that I feel that the quality of the transport makes a difference...vibration from a crappy structure/transport mechanism or maybe resulting from the stand it is sitting on, conceptually will have an effect.
I think most people here would agree with this - it's probably more a question of at what price do you hit the point of diminishing returns (what isn't in audio!). That's pretty subjective.
If you're running digi out to a dac the type of player makes less of a difference, but a cheap transport will have an audible effect. The question then is, can you tell the difference? And if you can, do you care enough to invest X$ to improve it.
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I am of the camp that I feel that the quality of the transport makes a difference...vibration from a crappy structure/transport mechanism or maybe resulting from the stand it is sitting on, conceptually will have an effect.
I think most people here would agree with this - it's probably more a question of at what price do you hit the point of diminishing returns (what isn't in audio!). That's pretty subjective.
If you're running digi out to a dac the type of player makes less of a difference, but a cheap transport will have an audible effect. The question then is, can you tell the difference? And if you can, do you care enough to invest X$ to improve it.
agree with all of that...funny how some of us have different tolerance points for $s vs. audible impact. With it being subjective, I always find it amusing that no matter who you talk to, seems everyone has a different opinion ;D
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absolutely ;D
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I think the single most important area of upgrade is getting your space acoustically treated. It made a huge difference to me..so much of a difference in fact, that recordings I loved prior to the treatment , sounded like ass, and the same with the monitors I was using. wouldnt it make sense to get the room squared away before spending more bucks on playback gear?? Would the differences in transports be immediately noticeable in a bad room?(they are subtle, no?)
Curious.
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Teddy has a point, that the benefits of improving your transport may be minimal compared to benefits received from other upgrades.
But for most people, it is a lot easier to UG their playback than to fix their listening room. Especially those with wives that don't go for that type of thing. I'm pretty sure my girlfriend won't allow me to hang foam all over our living room...
Terry
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Transport: I believe they do make a difference, but you have to get into uber transports to really hear it. Case in point, Carls old belt driven transport was so damn smooth sounding comparred to the Philips 963sa deck that we also had on hand. it was clearly evident.
overall though, for this discussion...
i recomend buying an outboard DAC. For example...the lite DAC 60 w/rolled tubes that i'm about to post for sale.
:)
its mint. basicaly new. Very smooth sounding comparred to the analog outputs of my Toshiba SD9200, which aint no slouch.
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I think the single most important area of upgrade is getting your space acoustically treated. It made a huge difference to me..so much of a difference in fact, that recordings I loved prior to the treatment , sounded like ass, and the same with the monitors I was using. wouldnt it make sense to get the room squared away before spending more bucks on playback gear?? Would the differences in transports be immediately noticeable in a bad room?(they are subtle, no?)
Curious.
I dont have a bad room currently. Obviously it could use room treatments, but given the home is on the market, I wont be doing that until after I get into my new home.
As I said earlier in this thread...the change I was hearing could have been the result of me hearing something I wanted to hear...I think that is a possibility with every change in audio playback that you can make, and I am probably as guilty of it as anyone else. I can say with certainty that the video output was markedly better on the new unit...so given that, I wouldnt be surprised if the improvement was a result of a more vibration resistent transport, but it is obviously subjective...
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There are two schools of thought when it come to this sort of thing. The first is start with the best transport/dac you can afford. It is the FIRST piece in the chain, the old garbage in = garbage out school of thought. IMO, a good transport makes all the difference in the worls. Like Nick said, smoooooooooth playback. Although all this high end digital crap still can't compare to a crappy turntable, don't get me started. Case in point, my digital front end costs 3x what my analog front does & still doesn't compare ;D
The other school of though is that you start with your speakers & build your system around them. Not a bad way to go either. Your speakers are the final point of reproduction, if they can't accurately reproduce or at least reproduce in a manner you want to hear then no matter what you do upstream will matter.
Hmmmmmm, I have tried it both ways. I have a stellar transport & DAC, they are very good at what they do but I also have excellent speakers with great cables. Yes, I can hear the difference when I change cables now or tweak my speakers but I have spent some time building the system to where it is today. What I mean by that is that I have spent a lot of time (wasted some time & money too) trying a lot of different gear in my system to get it to sound the way I want. I say this all the time but the most fun in audio for me is experimenting with different gear to see what works with your tastes & system creating a synergy. A new player may be an improvement for you just as new speakers or amp or cables may also be an improvement. Audio is a wonderful hobby, there are so MANY flavors of ice cream out there, you just need to find what works for you. you don't need to spend a lot of money either, buy used. As a matter of fact, buy & sell alot of stuff used, you won't lose much except shipping & it will allow you to see what floats your boat in the audio world.
Or maybe you aren't as much of geek as I am & all you want to do is play music back at home but then again you probably wouldn't be on this site you weren't :P