Topic: Grado SR225 vs. Sennheiser HD-580

[JasonSobel]

hey folks.
Up until now, I've spent all my $$$ on my recording gear, and I've decided that's it's time I start listening to my recordings on something better than those $20 speakers I picked up at Best Buy all those years ago...

I'm going to start with a nice set of headphones.  I am planning on getting a Grace 901 within the next 6 months or so (as that will take care of a real nice headphone amp, and a DAC in one unit).  but in the meantime, I've got to choose the headphones.  
I've narrowed it down to the Grado sr225 and the Sennheiser HD580.  
I've listened to both, although neither extensively, and, unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to do A/B comparisons.
I've read reviews, and it seems as though more people think the Sennheiser's are more comfortable, but some people prefer the Grado sound.

are there any obvious things that I'm missing.  Do any of you use either of these headphones?  Have any of you used both of these headphones?  any suggestions?  other things that I should think about?  any comments at all?

edit to say:  I am only planning on using these for home listening.  I don't need for them to be portable, I don't need them to monitor while at a show, I don't really need isolation, I just need some great sounding playback gear for my home

thanks
Jason

[MattD]

I've demoed both the HD-580 and the SR125, so that's as close a perspective as I can offer. I couldn't stand the Grados sitting ON my ears (as opposed to the senns around my ears). It annoyed me enough that I couldn't get comfortable listening. It was distracting. I guess some people aren't bothered by it or get used to it.

If you decide on the Senns, you might want to think about the 590s instead of the 580s b/c of the cord style. I've heard they're pretty much the same otherwise.

[Nick Culbreth]

i tried out both and decided to get the sennheiser hd580s.  the grado headphones sounded nice but were very uncomfortable which ruled them out for me.  the sennheisers sounded great and were exteremely comfortable so for me it wasn't a tough decision at all.  i'd try to find a local hi-fi retailer and test out both and see which your ears prefer.

[nickgregory]

I have heard the "uncomfortable" argument for the Grados, but honestly after owning the SR80s for about a week...I have definitely gotten used to it...and actually prefer it...

[jpschust]

Jason, I'm kind of surprised you would drop a grand on a headphone pre.  seems like not the best place to start to me.  Why wouldnt you start with one of the denon 3803's and a nice pair of b&w's or similar speakers?  That would be well within the price range of just the grace 901 alone

[scervin]

I was wondering the same question.  If spending that much on a headphone pre I would check out the HD650's and I thought the SR325's were better than the 225's.  Could also look into the Ref 1's.  

[Wes]

I personally like his decision to go the headphone route.  with the 901 he is going to have a good d/a along with a good amp (not something I would say about a <$1K Denon)..  Plus, he'll get better sound out of the headphones than those entry level b&ws.  

[scervin]

It goes along the lines of better speakers vs. better components debate.  I say put equal stake in both and you can't go wrong.  If you fork out $5000 in speakers you best have another 5 to put into source components and a good grand for cables.  I don't think $10K speakers can be driven by a Denon and sound great.... If spending a fair amount on a 901, I'd think the extra $150-200 could be spent on the best headphones.

[JasonSobel]

thanks for the input so far, and keep those opinions coming.  my reasons for considering the headphone route more seriously than other playback gear are mostly issues of practicality.  I'm still living in an apartment, and my landlord lives next door.  Because of this, I can't play music too loud very often.  I also don't have a lot of extra space in my apartment, and if I were spending a lot of money on speakers and other playback gear, I know speaker placement can have a big impact on the sound.  at this point, all my playback gear is in my bedroom, and I don't have another room that I can dedicate to music listening....  someday  so in the meantime, I thought I could get real high quality, detailed listening with the 901 and some headphones...

If spending a fair amount on a 901, I'd think the extra $150-200 could be spent on the best headphones.

I've thought about this as well.  the thing is, both the hd580 and the grado sr225 are aound $200.  the Grado R1's are in the range of $650 to $700.  closer to $500 more than the sr225.  but perhaps I should consider the sr325's or the r2's, or the hd600 or hd650's as well.  offhand, I can't recall how much more the hd650's were compared to the 580's.

[Joe w.]

A nice Buy it now price on some 590's:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073986871&category=3274

[jpschust]

ok i understand your reasoning to go with the 901, and its really a nice unit, but I think about it, personally, in terms of utilitarian functions.  Personally, I actually was going to get a 901 somwhere within the next few months, but then GD released the 904 and 906 monitor series (has the same circuitry apparently as the 901 for the headphone out on it) so that nixed that.  

Here is what I mean by the utilitarian function.  Part of the reason I have my home theatre setup is not just for my own listening, but I tend to entertain quite a bit.  OK all the damn time.  One of my passions outside of audio work is cooking and whatnot so most every night I've got people over here making meals or just hanging out and whatnot.  I much prefer to listen to music of any sort than have the TV on, unless hockey is on :-)  With a 901 I can't just pass out headphones, ya kno?  

As per getting a good D/A and good Amp and everything-- I think with some really good research you could get a nice, older D/A (ie DA1000) along with a nice amp (older Marantz or older Denon) and some pretty decent used speakers for about 12-1300 which is what you are looking at spending with those headphones and a 901.  

Again, I'm not knocking the 901- its a killer unit.  Just something to consider.

[MattD]

That'd be classic, though ... headphone distribution amp and pass out SR-60s or something to everyone!

[scervin]

the 650's are $450.... so another $250 or so.  

[George]

Ok, i've never heard the 225's, but both brands are known for their signature sound (at least the 580's, 600's and 650's for senn).   The 590's are an entirely different beast altogether.

Grado's: Bright, fatiguing, great for rock music, guitars and drums have a lot of "snap" to them.  Let me tell you, dave matthews band sound great with the Grado's (you can hear every squeak as dave shifts his hand on the fret of his acoustic guitar).   Best off with a warm amp (and maybe a amp with a dark signature sound?)  to match the Grado's to tame that mid and upper frequency boost.

Sennheisers: Veiled, hazy, laidback, upper bass bump, great for classical music but many peeps enjoy them with every kind of genre of music.  Complete opposite in sound characteristics compared to the Grado's.  Need a bright amp to match with this sucker.   However, tubes+senn cans work very well together.  My stock 580's+tube rolled Mg head sound very sweet indeed.

What it should come down to is what kind of sound do you prefer?  Also, make sure that Grace amp is a good match for either headphone.  I'm not familiar with the Grace amp myself but nothing sucks more than mismatching a headphone and an amp.  You might want to go lurk on head-fi for more info on that amp.  Hope that helps!

[MattD]

The 590s are different? Can you explain more, gloco? I'd been told they were more or less like the 580s sound but with a different feel on your head and a cord on only one side. I've only seen pics, though.

[Sean Gallemore]

the pics are totally diff

[Nick Culbreth]

the thing is, both the hd580 and the grado sr225 are aound $200.  the Grado R1's are in the range of $650 to $700.  closer to $500 more than the sr225.  but perhaps I should consider the sr325's or the r2's, or the hd600 or hd650's as well.  offhand, I can't recall how much more the hd650's were compared to the 580's.

you can get a pair of new hd580s off of ebay for around $150 and the new hd600s seem to go for around $250.  i've listened to both and the 600s sounded marginally better than the 580s, they're definately a more sturdy set of headphones since they're made of metal unlike the 580s which are made out of plastic.  i personally didn't think there was enough difference between the two to justify spending an extra $100.  i've heard good things about the hd650s (never actually listened to a pair) but they're much more expensive ($400ish).

my first upgrade on my playback was building a nice headphone setup and i couldn't be happier with my decision.  i think you'll get much more enjoyment out of a top notch headphone setup than you would out of a low end set of speakers.  i ended up spending around $400 on my headphone, amp, cable, and an extra set of tubes - i'd have to spend atleast 3x that to get a speaker setup even close to as nice as the headphones.  i know the 901 is out of my budget but if you can afford it, go for it and when you want to add a set of speakers you'll already have a kick ass d/a.

[jpschust]

[
my first upgrade on my playback was building a nice headphone setup and i couldn't be happier with my decision.  i think you'll get much more enjoyment out of a top notch headphone setup than you would out of a low end set of speakers.  i ended up spending around $400 on my headphone, amp, cable, and an extra set of tubes - i'd have to spend atleast 3x that to get a speaker setup even close to as nice as the headphones.  i know the 901 is out of my budget but if you can afford it, go for it and when you want to add a set of speakers you'll already have a kick ass d/a.

first off, as per a standalone d/a i dont know that id call it "kick ass", maybe really good, but thats not where the entirety of this piece of gear lies.  it lies in its ability to add amazingly clean gain on the pre side.  for 400 bucks, no you cant get a speaker setup with d/a and whatnot to equal what youd get from those headphones, but for 1200 or so yep you would :-)  I hold my ground!  Ni!

[Nick Culbreth]

first off, as per a standalone d/a i dont know that id call it "kick ass", maybe really good, but thats not where the entirety of this piece of gear lies.  it lies in its ability to add amazingly clean gain on the pre side.  for 400 bucks, no you cant get a speaker setup with d/a and whatnot to equal what youd get from those headphones, but for 1200 or so yep you would :-)  I hold my ground!  Ni!

i'll let you know about that when the maggies arrive and i find a suitable preamp and power amp.  

[JasonSobel]

I'm not familiar with the Grace amp myself but nothing sucks more than mismatching a headphone and an amp.  You might want to go lurk on head-fi for more info on that amp.

on Oade's old tech forum, there's some discussion on the 901.  there's one post by Mike Grace, in which he specifically recommends either the hd580s or the grados to use with the 901 amp.  I was seriously looking at those headphones before I read that, so after reading it, it certainly made me feel good about the choices, and took away the worries that these headphones might not be a good match for the 901.  I don't have the link handy now, because I'm at work.  if you go to Oade's old tech forum and search for "901" it shouldn't be too hard to find.

and gloco, in your opinion, are the Senn. headphones really "Veiled or hazy"  I've heard similar reviews about a more laidback sound, and less "fatiguing" than the Grados.  but I haven't heard that they are veiled or hazy.  please explain this further.  
again, I've listened to both headphones, although neither extensively, and not side by side.

thanks

[macdaddy]

I have heard the "uncomfortable" argument for the Grados, but honestly after owning the SR80s for about a week...I have definitely gotten used to it...and actually prefer it...

I completely agree. I have the sr125s, and you get used to the feel very quickly. And they sound very good...

warning - they also can get loud, so if you use them, be careful not to damage your hearing...

[George]

The 590s are different? Can you explain more, gloco? I'd been told they were more or less like the 580s sound but with a different feel on your head and a cord on only one side. I've only seen pics, though.

They are brighter than the 580's, 600's and 650's.  You might want to go lurk over at www.head-fi.org for a review of those cans.

[George]

and gloco, in your opinion, are the Senn. headphones really "Veiled or hazy"  I've heard similar reviews about a more laidback sound, and less "fatiguing" than the Grados.  but I haven't heard that they are veiled or hazy.  please explain this further.  
again, I've listened to both headphones, although neither extensively, and not side by side.

thanks

Yes, they definitely are veiled a little, it's almost like there's extra padding over the diaphragm disguising upper frequencies...that's what i mean by "veil" and "hazy."  The upper frequencies seem tamed (or rolled off?)which makes the headphones much less fatiguing than Grado cans for instance, which are very bright in comparison.  A lot of people blame the stock cable which come with the headphone, since their are aftermarket cables that do seem to remove this "veil" and bring out those upper frequencies to the forefront (based on comments and reviews at head-fi).  Check out www.headphone.com and click on the cables link, you'll see some aftermarket cables, be forewarned, they are quite expensive.  

[JasonSobel]

well, for those of you who are interested in what I decided to do, here goes...

first, I found a dealer in Boston that had the entire Grado line for me to listen to.  I asked to listen to the sr225's, the sr325's, and the rs2's.  I found the difference between the sr225's and the 325's to be subtle.   then I put on the rs2's.  huge difference, and I noticed it right away.  (fyi, I didn't listen to the rs1's)

ok, at this point, I know that I've got to compare the Senn HD600's to the rs2's.   the Tweeter store in Harvard Square had the hd600's on sale for $270, and they had a full money back for 30 days thing.  so I bought them, and went back to the Grado dealer with the Senn. in hand to do my comparison.

I'm not very good at describing sound, but here are my thoughts anyway.  The Grados are much more exciting to listen to.  They really seem more "up front" (whatever that is supposed to mean), but the sound definitely jumped out at me a lot more than the Senn. cans.

so I returned the hd600's on my way home, and I am now a happy owner of the grado rs2's

while all this was going on, I was checking out prices on the grace 901.  Oade was able to sell me an open box 901 that had been used for the stereophile review, w/ full warranty, for 100 bucks less than it would have been.  it will be here early next week.  

I'm psyched!

[George]

well, for those of you who are interested in what I decided to do, here goes...

first, I found a dealer in Boston that had the entire Grado line for me to listen to.  I asked to listen to the sr225's, the sr325's, and the rs2's.  I found the difference between the sr225's and the 325's to be subtle.   then I put on the rs2's.  huge difference, and I noticed it right away.  (fyi, I didn't listen to the rs1's)

ok, at this point, I know that I've got to compare the Senn HD600's to the rs2's.   the Tweeter store in Harvard Square had the hd600's on sale for $270, and they had a full money back for 30 days thing.  so I bought them, and went back to the Grado dealer with the Senn. in hand to do my comparison.

I'm not very good at describing sound, but here are my thoughts anyway.  The Grados are much more exciting to listen to.  They really seem more "up front" (whatever that is supposed to mean), but the sound definitely jumped out at me a lot more than the Senn. cans.

so I returned the hd600's on my way home, and I am now a happy owner of the grado rs2's

while all this was going on, I was checking out prices on the grace 901.  Oade was able to sell me an open box 901 that had been used for the stereophile review, w/ full warranty, for 100 bucks less than it would have been.  it will be here early next week.  

I'm psyched!

Well, what did you plug both headphones into?  If you used the headphone jack out of a source then yeah, the Grado's will sound leagues better.  The Senn's needs a amp and top it all off...burn in.   Congrats though, i'm sure you'll love the RS-2's!

[JasonSobel]

they store with the headphone had some real nice equipment there, not just headphones.  they had 4 or 5 listening rooms full of good stuff.  so they had a headphone amp for me to use.  I forget exactly what it was though... granted, the hd600's weren't burned in. but hey, the grado's just really jumped out at me as being the better set of phones.

[George]

they store with the headphone had some real nice equipment there, not just headphones.  they had 4 or 5 listening rooms full of good stuff.  so they had a headphone amp for me to use.  I forget exactly what it was though... granted, the hd600's weren't burned in. but hey, the grado's just really jumped out at me as being the better set of phones.

Hehe, that's cool man.  Now prepare to get the urge to listen to your entire music collection over again!