Topic: Anybody mix recordings from R-09 and M10?

[jnarchive]

Hey there.

Currently own and use an Edirol R-09. I'm planning on buying another stereo recorder soon, and am considering buying the M10.

Was wondering if anyone has mixed recordings made with a R-09 and an M10 together (say an SBD and a mic source)? I know there can sometimes be sync issues mixing recordings from different recorders... does anyone have experience doing this?

Thanks for any input.
j

[Teen Age Riot]

I don't have an M10, but I've used a pair of R-09s as well as one R-09HR (SBD) and an R-09 (AUD) for matrix recordings, and there was always significant drift.

Of course you can fix things in post (this topic has been covered - you might want to use the search function), but if you're planning to make sbd/aud matrices on a regular basis, I would recommend getting a 4-track. It just saves you so much time.

[stantheman1976]

I've never recorded with 2 devices and had it match dead on.  Usually the drift won't be more than about 1/2 to 1 second over and hour or so.  With digital devices the drift is constant so it's easy to adjust.  Use your desired program to shrink/stretch one source to match the other and it will match up the rest of the recording.

I use Sony Vegas for mixing sources.  You can stretch or shrink a file by holding down the CTRL key and hvering your cursor over the end of the track.  Move it one way or another and you're adjusting.  I also use a trick of creating a loop region in Vegas between peaks at the end of the recording to know exactly how much to adjust.

[jnarchive]

Good info, thanks!

I was considering trying to find another R-09, hoping it would make the process easier, but it now seems unlikely. I'll put the M10 up at the top of my list, then.

Cheers,
j

[stantheman1976]

Have you looked at the Tascam DR-2D?  I have a D50 and love it so when I decided to get another recorder the M10 automatically came to mind.  My main concern about the M10 is how well the internal omnis can handle loud music I will record. 

Battery life on the M10 is obviously far superior but I prefer the cardioid mics and the dual record feature looks really sweet.

[yousef]

I do exactly what Stantheman said. In fact I'm doing it this evening with an M10 sbd source and an R-09 audience recording.

Using the looping technique described, it takes just a few seconds to stretch one of the sources to match.

[stantheman1976]

Yousef, have you worked with any compressor/maximizer plugins for Vegas?  I want to see if there's a way to get a little more volume out of some recordings.  Right now I just use hard limiting in Audition to raise each source up.  Then mix to taste in Vegas and use the Antress Modern Limiter to tame peaks.

http://soundcloud.com/stantheman1976/sets/rockwell-superficial-sheps-bar/

Here's something I recorded a few weeks ago using CA9000/CA-11 omins mixed with PCM-50 internals.  This was the first time I recorded loud bar music like this.  The recording sounds pretty much like the actual show did.  There was no PA system.  The band was on a little corner stage playing straight through their amps in a bar/grill place.  I had the D50 and mics set up on a camera tripod about 12-15' out from the stage basically centered.  I'm going to be doing more with these guys coming up in some better settings.  Supposed to be filming them at rehearsal with multi-track audio provided soon.

[yousef]

I've only toyed around with the multiband compressor plug-in that comes bundled with Vegas andI can't say that I've been very successful with it.

I know what you mean though - I seem to make a lot of recordings where there must be some very transient peaks that seem almost unnoticeable but prevent you from simply normalising  the whole recording to get an acceptable result. I find this even more of an issue when preparing audio for DVDs - nothing worse than putting the disc in for the first run-through and having it sound so tiny and quiet...

The best results I've had so far are with the 'mastering' plug-ins that come built in to Adobe Audition - they seem to be able to gain a few extra dBs without taking a too much of a toll on the dynamic range.

If you do come across anything that works well in Vegas, I'd be very interested to hear about it.

Love your recording btw - sounds really 'live', with just the right amount of audience participation being captured. Shame the vocals sound a bit buried at times, but I'm guessing that that's how they sounded on the night.

[stantheman1976]

As muddy as the vocals are they actually sound much clearer on the recording than they did live.  The band didn't do any kind of sound check or anything.  There were 3 bands playing starting at 10pm.  They all showed up about 9:40pm and put their amps and instruments on the stage, plugged it all in, and started playing.  It was as raw as you can get.

As far as amplifying in Audition, I never use normalize.  I will usually find where the strongest peaks are in a recording, then look for peaks just below that and use hard limiting to cut the recording to where those second line of peaks are ("limit to -XXdB, raise gain by 0dB) and then raise it to peak at -.10dB.  It also depends on what kind of recording it is.  For voice only I can push a little more and it usually sounds fine.  I don't go too extreme with music.

[Teen Age Riot]

Are you guys absolutely sure that the drift is always constant?
I've tried the time-stretching approach, but it has never really worked for me. Some passages always sounded different from others.

[stantheman1976]

When using digital devices I've never had drift that wasn't constant.  With analog it varies.  I only tried mixing and analog and digital source once and gave up.

[goodcooker]

When using digital devices I've never had drift that wasn't constant. 

I disagree. I've had wildly varying drift to the point I gave up on trying to mix sources that weren't clocked together.
Even ambient temperature can affect the clock of a device.
YMMV

[stantheman1976]

I've never heard that before but I believe you.  Did you experience it with multiple devices multiple times?  Are you sure the device(s) you experienced it with didn't have some other issues going on?

That recording I linked was a D50 recording at 24/96 recording to memory card and mics/preamp into an iriver H320 at 16/44.  It took me 5 minutes to get It synced with no issues.  I've also mixed audio from both those recorders with SD and HD video and any drift was always constant and easily adjusted.

[Husker Du]

The best method that I've used to sync two sources was one that was discussed here a few years ago: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=97244.msg1531330#msg1531330

Just measure the drift by comparing the two wave files side by side and insert the numbers into the spreadsheet. Using the calculations built into the spreadsheet, you can resample one of the wave files using r8brain so the two files will match perfectly. It has always worked for me.

http://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/

[Teen Age Riot]

^ Again, that's assuming that the drift is constant, right?

[stantheman1976]

^ Again, that's assuming that the drift is constant, right?

Yes, that's assuming the drift is constant but the be honest you're the only person I've ever seen who said digital devices didn't produce a constant drift. 

In theory and practice I've never seen otherwise.  Are you sure there weren't other factors that made it happen to you?  Maybe it was limited to a specific device or model?  Or maybe the drive or card you were using had some issue?

[yousef]

I understand that in theory temperature could cause an inconsistent drift but I've never had that happen to me; at least not to an extent that it was noticable.

If I did come across this problem, I'd probably chop one of the files up into sections (even into each separate song, if needed) and align and time-stretch them individually.

Having said that, if I did come across a drift that was quite so inconsistent, I think I would be suspecting an underlying problem in one of the recording devices.

I've mixed audio from a D8 with that from a cheap Sony camcorder and a prosumer Canon one, Microtrack and those two same cameras, D8 and Iriver 320, Microtrack and Iriver 320, R09 and Iriver 120, and R09 and M10 - consistent drift (to my ears, anyway) every time. Not saying that it doesn't happen though - maybe I've just been lucky.

[Teen Age Riot]

Well, according to reply #11, I'm not the only one.
However, you may be right. There could have easily been other factors including user errors...

^ Again, that's assuming that the drift is constant, right?

Yes, that's assuming the drift is constant but the be honest you're the only person I've ever seen who said digital devices didn't produce a constant drift. 

In theory and practice I've never seen otherwise.  Are you sure there weren't other factors that made it happen to you?  Maybe it was limited to a specific device or model?  Or maybe the drive or card you were using had some issue?