Topic: AKG C34 or Nevaton MC-47 / MC-48?

[jpk]

Hi! I want to record classical music: solo violin, violin & piano (recitals etc.), small chamber music (for example stringquartett or piano trio), soloviolin with small chamber orchestra, sometimes vocal, but most important is violin. I want an easy to use stereo XY mic with nice quality. I checked many mics by many brands and it seems to my that the Nevaton MC-47 (or MC-48) could be the right choice, or a used AKG C34. I have a Tascam HD-P2 (modded by Oade) and would like to plug the mic directly into the deck. What is the difference between the sound of the AKG C34 and the Nevaton MC-47 / MC-48? Thank you for any advice! Jun

[F.O.Bean]

Ask Javier Cinakowski(sp?) he runs an AT 4050ST stereo mic and it sounds awesome You can find them refurbished on ebay for half of what they are new

[DigiGal]

Here is a chamber orchestra recording that I made with my Shure VP88, it is a mid-side stereo mic.

http://www.archive.org/details/aco2009-10-30.DigiGal.vp88.flac16

[rastasean]

Any particular reason you want to do a single stereo mic?

this is a pretty good price on a nice pair of AT 4051s:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147228.0

[jpk]

Thanks for the input! I need a stereo mic to reduce amount of gear, because I often am too lazy to take with me a deck plus 2 mics plus stands plus leads etc., but a minimalistic setup (deck plus one mic) would be fine as a travel kit. Also I changed the subject of this thread to get more specific answers regarding the sound of the AKG C34 vs. Nevaton MC-47 and/or MC-48.

[Brian Skalinder]

Given the mics you're considering, is it safe to assume your budget is in the $1,500 - $2,500 range?  Is there something specific that draws you to the C34 (small diaphragm) or MC-47/48 (large diaphragm), other than single-point stereo?

In that price range, you might consider Audio Technica AT4050ST.  It's Mid-Side, not XY, so you'll have to convert to left-right stereo in post -- but that's easy to do.

I still miss my C34.    (Made one of my best recordings ever with it.)  Good luck finding one!  I'd recommend the MC-48 over the -47 -- having never heard either -- simply because the -48 offers the option of an included angle wider than 90º, which I think is crucial.  If you try the MC-47 or -48, come back and post some samples -- I'm keen to hear them.

Have you considered an inexpensive single-point stereo mic, like the Avantone CK-40, to get a feel for the benefits and / or limitations of a single-point stereo mic?  You could also pick up a pair of inexpensive small diaphragm condensors (SDC) and experiment with both single-point stereo (large or small diaphragm) and a pair of SDCs, see which you like, then upgrade whichever you prefer if you feel the need.


A few thoughts from a previous thread about the benefits of a pair of mics v. single point stereo:

Short answer:  a pair of SDCs would provide dramatic improvements in your recordings, far more than any other piece of gear and/or a different single-point stereo mic.

Long answer:

I know you said you like gear that's minimal and easy & quick to set up*, but I strongly recommend considering a pair of SDCs.  A modular system would prove ideal, allowing you to switch between cardioids or omnis (or even hypercardioids) for different recording environments, but even a pair of fixed cardioids would produce big improvements.  Using a pair of mics would allow you to use a variety of coincident and near-coincident mic configurations, instead of the single fixed, coincident configuration of a single-point stereo mic.

The ability to change the included angle alone, even if still running a coincident configuration, would have a significant impact.  But running near-coincident mic configurations would deliver even larger improvements.  The primary benefits of running near-coincident configurations:

• Time-difference stereo.  Coincident configurations provide intensity-difference stereo.  Near-coincident configurations provide intensity- and time-difference stereo.  Generally, and all else being equal (e.g. stereo recording angle), mic configurations with time-difference stereo produce what some might call a greater sense of space.
  
• Flexibility and control.  Due to the ability to change not only included angle, but also spacing, you have far greater flexibility in controlling the sound of the recording.  You can change the configuration to control the stereo recording angle and, to a significant degree, the relative levels of direct and reverberant sound captured by both mics.  All else being equal (like stereo recording angle)...want to capture less reverberant (i.e. "room") sound?  Try wider spacing with narrower included angle.  Think the room sounds great and want to capture more of the "room" sound?  Reduce spacing and increase the included angle.
  
  

* It's not much more hassle to set up a pair of mics, and IMO the benefits greatly outweigh the additional hassle.  And there are ways you can streamline the setup, e.g. leave the mic bar and/or shockmounts on the stand.  The AKG KM 235 stereo bar is great in this regard because it allows one to fold the bar towards the center of the stand to minimize the on-stand footprint of the shockmounts and mount bar for transport.

[TNJazz]

I have a bit of a bias here but I would agree with Brian about choosing the MC48 over the MC47.  Between the MC48 and the AKG - I doubt you will be unhappy with either one.  Both are excellent mics.

If you would like a demo of the MC48 for a week or so feel free to get in touch and we can work something out.

Brian I have a bunch of MC48 samples I can put up (no classical though) - let me track down a few and see what I can do.

EDIT:  Here's one:  http://soundcloud.com/tnjazz/mc48

[jpk]

Is there something specific that draws you to the C34 (small diaphragm) or MC-47/48 (large diaphragm), other than single-point stereo?

The C34, because the C426 (LDC) is too expensive; I read good reviews of the C34 and might have the opportunity to get one here in Austria (where I live), also AKG made fixed pattern versions of the C34 with XY and MS for Austrian radio. The Nevatons are also supported very well in Austria, and according to what I heard they have a low price for what they deliver.

Audio Technica AT4050ST.  It's Mid-Side, not XY, so you'll have to convert to left-right stereo in post -- but that's easy to do.

Recording with an MS mic and convert to XY in post - is that possible...?

Have you considered an inexpensive single-point stereo mic

Yes, I have a Beyerdynamic MCE-82!

Short answer:  a pair of SDCs would provide dramatic improvements in your recordings

I have a pair of DPA 4060s, and I might consider also a second pair of SDCs (maybe something like used KM183s) - but at the moment I need advice for a stereo mic.

If you would like a demo of the MC48 for a week or so feel free to get in touch and we can work something out.

Many thanks for your kind offer!

Here's one:  http://soundcloud.com/tnjazz/mc48

This sounds very nice, I am sure I would be fine with a Nevaton! Just 2 more questions about them: on the Russian website the MC47 and the MC48 have the same "self noise DIN/IEC" of 12dB-A, whereas the European website states 12 dB-A "Equivalent SPL DIN/IEC 651" for the MC48 and 17dB-A for the MC47; so are they or are they not equal in noise? My second question is about the mono mode: can I use the MC48 with both capsules pointing in one direction just like the MC47?

[Brian Skalinder]

might have the opportunity to get one [C34] here in Austria (where I live), also AKG made fixed pattern versions of the C34 with XY and MS for Austrian radio.

My strongly held view:  if you can get a C34 at a good price (especially the full-fledged version, instead of the XY or MS versions) -- do so!

The other single-point stereo mics in question are large diaphragm condensers (LDC), which produce a different sound than small diaphgram condensers (SDC).  Plus, the full-fledged C34 has highly variable polar patterns, which enhances it's flexibility.  And if you decide you don't like it (which I doubt), you can always sell it for what you paid (if not more), and come out even (if not ahead).  The other options -- Audio Technica 4050ST, Nevaton MC-47 and -48 -- are current models so you can always switch (or add) later, if you wish.  Tracking down a C34 isn't easy, in my experience.  (And I still regret selling mine.)  So if it were me, I'd jump at the chance.

Recording with an MS mic and convert to XY in post - is that possible...?

Yes.  Very possible, very simple, and in my experience generally preferable to XY.  In general, for coincident mic configurations, I prefer MS to XY, and especially so with LDCs since their off-axis response is generally not as uniform throughout the frequency range as SDCs.  You can convert from MS to XY manually, some software includes native tools for converting MS to XY, and there are also free plugins (like Voxengo MSED) for doing the same.  (It's also possible to convert XY to MS, and back.)

[TNJazz]

This sounds very nice, I am sure I would be fine with a Nevaton! Just 2 more questions about them: on the Russian website the MC47 and the MC48 have the same "self noise DIN/IEC" of 12dB-A, whereas the European website states 12 dB-A "Equivalent SPL DIN/IEC 651" for the MC48 and 17dB-A for the MC47; so are they or are they not equal in noise?

Both microphones share the same capsule, electronics and signal path to my knowledge, so the self noise should be the same.

My second question is about the mono mode: can I use the MC48 with both capsules pointing in one direction just like the MC47?

No.  The MC48 is variable from 50 to 140 degrees only.  With regard to the MC48 I think when they say "mono mode" they are referring to the use of a single capsule rather than both together...

[notlance]

I own both an AKG C34 and a Nevaton MC404.

AKG C34: My mic is the variable pattern version.  Most of the time I use it in MS, sometimes Blumlein.  This is a fine mic, but it’s a bit bright.  It is not my first choice to record Chamber music, especially strings.   Violins recorded with this mic often sound too harsh.  The HF emphasis is above about 8 kHz and a little eq can make strings sound much better.  The mic is a little noisy too, but in practice I have not had a problem with noise.  Perhaps that’s because I often use the C34 to record jazz combos, and in that application the mic is just about perfect.

The C34 is small for a stereo mic which is a plus.   I don’t like having to use the remote box to select patterns; I’d like the pattern selection switches to be on the mic.

In the USA, a C34 sells for about $2000, or perhaps a bit more.  That is, when you can find one for sale.  Seems like I see one for sale in the USA about once a year, but I’m not a microphone dealer by any means.  In Austria they are less expensive and more easily found for sale?

BTW, the C426b is a superb microphone: very smooth and quiet.  I would not hesitate to use a C426b to record Chamber music or strings.  It is a LDC, but that is not too much of a problem with small ensembles since no instrument is too far off axis.  I cannot remember making a bad recording with my C426b.  The mic is kinda big, and the shock mount is finicky, but the sound makes up for it all.  In the US, the C426b sells for around $2300 (when you can find them) which is not much more than a C34 and worth every extra penny.

Nevaton MC404:  This might not be much help to you because I believe the MC404 uses a different capsule than is used in the MC47 & MC48.  I believe the MC404 has a 28 mm capsule and the M47 has a 25 mm capsule.  So for what it’s worth, the MC404 is a fine microphone: quiet with a neutral balance.  I use the MC404 as the Mid mic in a DMS setup to record a bell choir and the director told me it was the finest recording she had ever heard of a bell choir.

[Javier Cinakowski]

The AT4050ST refurbs are all gone, back to $1299, which is what I was happy to pay.

Th AT4050ST has an onboard M-S decoder if you don't feel like doing it post.  It has 3 modes.  M-S, 120degree stereo and 90degree stereo.  (selectable by a switch)

[jpk]

Tracking down a C34 isn't easy, in my experience.  (And I still regret selling mine.)  So if it were me, I'd jump at the chance.

I missed the last fixed XY C34 on Ebay. There is one fixed XY for sale here  and one fixed MS here in very good condition. The C426bs I saw were all much more expensive than these offers...

Both microphones share the same capsule, electronics and signal path to my knowledge, so the self noise should be the same. [...] With regard to the MC48 I think when they say "mono mode" they are referring to the use of a single capsule rather than both together...

Thank you for the information! So my last question about the Nevatons: how would you describe the difference in sound between the MC47 and MC48?

AKG C34: My mic is the variable pattern version.  Most of the time I use it in MS, sometimes Blumlein.  This is a fine mic, but it’s a bit bright.  It is not my first choice to record Chamber music, especially strings.   Violins recorded with this mic often sound too harsh.

If you say "Bright" and "harsh" I will forget the C34 for strings. It's important to me that the mic doesn't make things brighter and harsher than they already are 

The AT4050ST has an onboard M-S decoder if you don't feel like doing it post.  It has 3 modes.  M-S, 120degree stereo and 90degree stereo.  (selectable by a switch)

Thanks for the recommendations about the AT4050ST! If this mic is not too bright or harsh for strings I will consider it. How does it compare with the Nevatons?

[Brian Skalinder]

I missed the last fixed XY C34 on Ebay. There is one fixed XY for sale here  and one fixed MS here in very good condition. The C426bs I saw were all much more expensive than these offers...

When I noted the C34 is difficult to find, I was referring to the full-blown C34 with polar pattern configuration box -- apologies, I wasn't clear.  I didn't realize the C34 XY and MS models were so inexpensive and available.  Nice!

[TNJazz]

Both microphones share the same capsule, electronics and signal path to my knowledge, so the self noise should be the same. [...] With regard to the MC48 I think when they say "mono mode" they are referring to the use of a single capsule rather than both together...

Thank you for the information! So my last question about the Nevatons: how would you describe the difference in sound between the MC47 and MC48?

If you were to set the angles exactly the same, they would sound exactly the same.  The only difference is in the width of the stereo field.

Thanks for the recommendations about the AT4050ST! If this mic is not too bright or harsh for strings I will consider it. How does it compare with the Nevatons?

I've used the AT a number of times in the past.  A nice mic.  A little brighter than the Nevatons and maybe not quite as detailed I think but a very good sounding mic.  In all honesty AT is one of the only mic brands originating in the Far East that I like and will consider using.

For strings, I've had several people tell me that a pair of Nevaton MC49 are fantastic, but of course they are SDCs.